2 Missing Legions

[Scyld Fireblade]

To say it's very likely the wolves destroyed one of the missing legions isn't exactly the case. Its understandable people might believe the wolves so fearsome they must have been unleashed on them but it's still just conjecture. It could be just as likely the custodes did it or the legions burned out on their own. The actual most likely scenario is that the missing legions were actually defeated by outside actors given the historical incident they are based on.

"We were bred to perform tasks that no other legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them. That power was exercised more than once."

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, but do you have empirical evidence? I doubt it, since such a thing isn't possible in universe. That's my whole point. If you like the idea of the wolves wiping them out, that's cool. If you don't, that's cool too. Everyone is right :)

[Captain Idaho]

I got to say, it seems a leap to say "Guilliman doesn't know all the Space Wolves wars" which means they sanctioned other Legions.

 

I'd also like to point out that it's entirely possible that the Space Wolves earned the moniker "executioners" by killing human forces in need of sanction.

 

Regarding World Eaters vs Space Wolves; it's doubtful they could wipe out the World Eaters without great cost. When making his little demonstration, Russ had enough guns on Angron to kill him if he needed it, yet elsewhere his Wolves were dying.

 

I don't doubt that Space Wolves may have been involved in the sanction of another Legion, it seems plausible and likely that was the case as they were the 1st choice against the Thousand Sons. To say it's anything more than educated theoretical is stretching it though.

[Legatus]

Thigh I am itching to go into greater detail about how the 40K and 30K lore describes a very different Legion than Russ is describing, I think that would probably derail the thread. So I will keep it to the issue of whether or not we can reasonably assume that the Space Wolves had taken action against one or both of the missing Legions.

 

"We were bred to perform tasks that no other legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them. That power was exercised more than once."

 

The first sentence is not meant to be taken seriously. Guilliman is noted on several occasions to criticise other Primarchs for their conduct. He specifically criticised Angron for his brutality and Perturabo for killing his own men. I think he was also critical of Curze, but I do not remember the specific source. Russ on the other hand was one of his four "go-to guys" he felt he could rely on. Clearly the Ultramarines' perception of the Space Wolves was not the one claimed above. It is posturing.

 

The second part is what is in dispute here, and I think the descriptions in 'Betrayer' are quite convincing in that that probably refers to the Space Wolves "censuring" the World Eaters.

 

 

 

"Imperial records stated that two primarchs came to Angron, both claiming to have been sent by the Master of Mankind. The first arrived soon after Angron joined his Legion. The second wouldn’t come until almost a century later. By then, it would be too late.
Russ was the first. He came, and he brought his Wolves. Already, they called themselves the Emperor’s executioners. Had he been given the title? Doubts were everywhere, among the primarchs and their Legions most of all. Why the Space Wolves? Lhorke still recalled the arguments on everyone’s lips. The Wolves lacked the Ultramarines numbers and Russ lacked the impartial wisdom of Guilliman. They lacked the Thousand Sons widespread gifts of sixth sense, and the Wolf King lacked the far-reaching knowledge of Magnus the Red. They lacked the ferocity of the World Eaters; the resilience of the Death Guard; and all but one of the twenty Legions lacked the grandeur, the reputation, and the victories of the Luna Wolves. More telling, every Legion but one lacked Horus, the First Primarch – suspected even then to be hailed one day as Heir to the Emperor.
But the truth twisted depending upon who told the tale. Russ lived the role as though it were his birthright. What mattered, in the shadow of that commitment? Nothing. Nothing at all.
They’d met at Malkoya, on the fields beyond the dead city of the same name. The World Eaters, battered and bleeding from Ghenna’s compliance, formed ragged lines before the assembled Space Wolves Legion. The primarchs stood before their hosts, armed and armoured – Angron awash with blood and carved up by fresh wounds; Leman Russ in resplendent plate the colour of the storms on his tempestuous homeworld.

(...)

The Wolf King hadn’t come to debate or offer pleasantries. Nevertheless, Lhorke remembered the nod of respect offered by the primarch.
‘Legion Master,’ Russ had said.
Lhorke’s ironform wasn’t made for obeisance, but he lowered his chassis in an awkward bow.
‘Great Wolf,’ he’d replied. ‘I am Legion Master no more.’
Russ had smiled, then. A crooked smile, offering the barest, whitest flash of his teeth. ‘More’s the pity. If you were, perhaps my presence would not be necessary.’
Angron spoke at last. Unlike Russ, he was savagery unrestrained by healthy dynamism. He brought no charismatic aura of life and passion. He was a god of war: broken, dangerous, and worst of all, unreliable. The Nails had forced his left eye to twitch open and closed in a madman’s blink.
‘Did he send you?’ the Eater of Worlds asked.
Russ said nothing. His silence had Angron smiling, though it was an ugly slice of a thing, showing no joy.
‘He didn’t, did he? The Emperor and Horus sail the stars together without a care for any of this. You’ve come to punish me because you believe it’s your place.’

(...)

‘Reports reach my ears, Angron. The words of commanders and captains who have suffered at your side. Soldiers forced to fight without orders, losing hundreds when mere dozens needed to die. Your own allies speak of the butchery done to them at your sons’ hands. Report after report after report, witness after witness after witness. All of this comes to me, and I wonder, my brother: what am I to do?’

(...)

‘I am not your lackey to judge,’ Angron stated. The cybernetic cables forming technological dreadlocks tensed as he clenched his iron teeth. ‘And you have no authority over me. Over any of us.’
Russ smiled again. ‘And yet, here I am.’
‘To do what? To commit to a war that will see both our Legions in ruins?’ Angron wiped a wounded hand over his face, as if the simple gesture could clean away the pain. ‘Leave. Leave before this becomes something you regret.’
The wind was picking up, now. Lhorke felt it as a dull whisper against his ironform, but it tore at the banners raised above the Space Wolf ranks.
Russ spoke again, pale eyes unwavering. ‘The surgery must end, Angron. The Emperor himself wills that it be so. The massacres end here and now, as well. Look what you have done to this world.’
‘Cleansed it.’
‘Butchered it. Reaved it. Ghenna is scoured of all life. Is this a deed you want listed beneath your name when statues rise to celebrate the Great Crusade?’
Angron cared nothing for statues, and said so plainly.
Russ shook his head. ‘You cannot sail the stars in this frenzy purely because you’re too damaged to learn the art of war. The implant surgery must be reversed. Your sons will submit to mine for a return to Terra. Once we reach the Palace, everything will be done to remove these parasitic engines from your men’s minds.’
Despite the twitches, Angron’s tortured eyes were wide in genuine surprise. ‘You think you have any authority over me? You think you can threaten me and expect to walk away?’
‘I think there’s a good chance of it, aye.’

(...)

The Night of the Wolf, they’d called it in the years since. Imperial archives referred to it as the Ghenna Scouring, omitting the moment the World Eaters and Space Wolves drew blood. A source of pride for both Legions, and a source of secret shame. Both claimed victory. Both feared they’d actually lost."

 

 

 

 

‘I am weak,’ Lorgar said again. ‘Me. Is that really true, brother? Am I the only primarch never to conquer his homeworld? Or is that the great and powerful Angron? Am I the first primarch to feel the breath of the Wolves on his throat, or was it Angron and his mighty sons who suffered on the Night of the Wolf, beaten bloody by Russ in the rain?’

(...)

‘He howled?’ asked Lorgar. His eyes were wide, pearly with soft wonder.
‘The call to retreat,’ Angron replied. ‘A fighting retreat – it took longer than you can imagine for the World Eaters to realise the battle was over. I had whole companies still trying to fight the Wolves as Russ’s Legion ran for their gunships.’ He chuckled. ‘They took a lot of trophies for their tallies. Many wear them still.’
For several moments, Lorgar had to watch his brother’s flawed face to make sure this wasn’t some elaborate jest.
‘You didn’t answer Russ’s question,’ he said. ‘Did you truly learn nothing from that fight?’
Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’
‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’
‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’
That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’
‘He crawled.’ Angron chuckled again, making a meal of the word.
‘And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’
‘He tried and failed.’
‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty. Look what happened. Yes, you beat him in a duel. Yes, your men took down more of his than his of yours. And yet, who won the battle?’
‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation.
Lorgar just stared at him for several seconds. ‘I appreciate that every living being must, by the nature of perception, understand and process life in a different way. But even for you, brother, this is achingly obtuse.’"

 

 

 

Lorgar remarks that Angron had been the first Primarch to be confronted by the Space Wolves. In that confrontation Russ demanded that Angron stop his questionable practices and to return to Terra with him, which Angron refused, resulting in an all out battle between the two Legion forces present. How can this be seen as anything other than an attempt at censure? Only it turns out that Russ had not been officially tasked to do so. He was there of his own accord. Because he believed that was his duty, what the Emperor would want of him.

 

So the first Legion to be attacked by the Space Wolves were the World Eaters. The most recent Legion at the time of the Heresy were the Thousand Sons.

 

So remarks shortly pre-Prospero that the Space Wolves "had done this before", as well as remarks that they had fought "more than one" Legion to bring it to heel can simply refer to those instances. They are not indications that they fought one of the missing Legions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This one seems to be going into the ever proverbial toidy.

[TRIBUN]

I think the one who did the culling of the thunder warriors also did it to the two lost legions.

 

It was HIM, the one and only traitor....

[MikhalLeNoir]

I think the one who did the culling of the thunder warriors also did it to the two lost legions.

It was HIM, the one and only traitor....

 

...so, uhmm....the Emperor?

[TRIBUN]

HIM.... Don't say his name... Voldemort....

[Jerun Va'der]

I think the wolves and another two legions would have been used to censure 1 of the lost legions. as seen with istvaan the emperor liked to have to have a nice numerical advantage when taking on renegade legions. the more legions used the more bound to the deed they would be. better to get a few legions with blood on their hands. the guilt helps with the cover up.

[Jamafore]

My only question about the Space Wolves being sent to take out another legion is that I would think that word would get out, thereby you have a incident where the legions have fought each other. Which would negate the whole "Legion vs. Legion?! Impossible!" thing that is going on. They would know it could happen, because it DID happen.

 

My guess would be something like this:

 

Random Legionnaire 1: Legion against Legion?! It can't happen! Impossible! Shame on you for thinking that!

 

Random Legionnaire 2: Umm, brother? It did happen. Remember the XIth?

 

Random Legionnaire 1: Oh yeah....I remember now. Nevermind what I said before.

[Praetor of Calth]

I've felt for some time now that, and the author afterword in "Path of Heaven" all but confirmed it for me in my mind, that one of the missing legions was involved in the early stages of the Imperial Webway project. Which would explain why the Emperor was so reluctant to let any more of his sons in on it.

 

The other I persume was wiped out during the Rangadan Xenocides, or maybe put under "mind control" by Enslavers/Parasites so that they had to be "Purged."

[Scyld Fireblade]

My only question about the Space Wolves being sent to take out another legion is that I would think that word would get out, thereby you have a incident where the legions have fought each other. Which would negate the whole "Legion vs. Legion?! Impossible!" thing that is going on. They would know it could happen, because it DID happen.

 

My guess would be something like this:

 

Random Legionnaire 1: Legion against Legion?! It can't happen! Impossible! Shame on you for thinking that!

 

Random Legionnaire 2: Umm, brother? It did happen. Remember the XIth?

 

Random Legionnaire 1: Oh yeah....I remember now. Nevermind what I said before.

The Imperium tends to be pretty good at keeping secrets. Plus it always feels like only the Primarchs are aware of what happened, but none of their men do and the Primarchs don't feel like sharing. Plus it is possible for everyone to simply accept that the Wolves will happily kill other astartes, but for one of the other legions to do so was an unimaginable situation.

[Captain Idaho]

The hints issued when the Primarchs talk of it always stick to the theme of shame and failure.

[blackoption]

Correct me if I am wrong, but memory alteration strikes me as a big theme in the Imperium.  Spoilers for those who haven't read Vengeful Spirit....    but even Horus and other primarchs had their memories altered of what actually occurred on Dwell (or was it Moloch. the world with the Cave to the Emperor).  So it is very possible other legions took part in any hypothetical sanctions against the two legions.  Yet for the sake of moral and public appearances, their memories of said events could have been altered so the legionaries might not correctly recount what has happened.

[TheEyeOfNight]

Just to add some variety in the potential theories: what if the "forgotten" were a Legion which were defeated? They ran up against some obscene threat during the Great Crusade and didn't survive the encounter?

[bluntblade]

Just to add some variety in the potential theories: what if the "forgotten" were a Legion which were defeated? They ran up against some obscene threat during the Great Crusade and didn't survive the encounter?

That would skew closest to the inspiration for the empty slots, ironically.

[M@verik115]

What if the 2 legions were expunged because they brought shame to the imperium while fighting the orks and constantly rolling 1's? 

[Dulahan]

To me the most evocative bit was either in the Lightning Tower or... maybe the Mars book?  Anyways, it had the Sigilite and Dorn talking, and Dorn implied there was still a way to -bring back- the two lost legions (no word on primarchs, just the legions).  But even then the Sigilite was like "heck no!" like it was so abhorrent even in the face of civil war that they wouldn't do it.

Either way, the point is they seem to be something that could be brought back, or communicated.  I rather wonder if they might have been sent outwards, perhaps a 'penitent crusade' sort of situation to new Galaxies or something like that.  

Sure, probably a throwaway line, but still...  Definitely the most evocative snippet that's been dropped in my opinion, far more than the 'executed by the wolves' hints or being absorbed by the Ultramarines rumor.

[Spacefrisian]

Iam thinking of creating my own missing legion for 30k (thats what the 2 entries are there for afterall).

 

Iam thinking about using the historical figure Cao Cao as inspiration for a Primarch, wich would set him up for extermination right from the get go. EG the Sigilite saw trouble comming miles ahead of everything and pair this with ambition of greatness and ruling it all. Seems a possibility. 

 

Still not sure about the name though, Phoenix legion or Peacock warriors.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well the peacock warriors sounds like some sort of band of tribal warriors, not a mighty legion of the emperor's space marines so I'd go for the Phoenix legion.

[Arkangilos]

I'm in the "they were defeated by outside forces" camp if we are speculating.

 

The legions were supposed to be unbeatable, so if they were defeated you don't want your people to know that an enemy is powerful enough to defeat it. Because of that, you would say, "no no, anyone that knows they existed will be told they were purged and forgotten. Anyone who doesn't know will continue to not know. No one will speak of this again. We cannot ever be defeated. Ever."

 

If they were sanctioned for sins, I would imagine they were sent into the grinder until they died, like a penitence Crusade.

[Spacefrisian]

Well the peacock warriors sounds like some sort of band of tribal warriors, not a mighty legion of the emperor's space marines so I'd go for the Phoenix legion.

 

Peacock warriors does sound more like a Fulgrim thing right?

[slitth]

I both love and hate that they are not telling much about the lost legion.

 

Love it because that give people totally free hands to make up their own story and theme based of the lost legions.

 

Hate it because that the is not enough rumoured or facts to have a starting point.

We don't even know it the lost legions existed, it could have just a company or few astartes that made up the force.

 

Just have Constantin Valdor say something like "yes the II and XI legions may have be useful right now, but they were dealt with according to the emperor wishes"

Just to confirm that they existed and were dealt with.

How and why can be shown through rumours and speculation. That would give us free hand especially if some of the rumours are contradictory.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

It's still a bit lame that they are alluded to in great detail. But everyone is like "they were so totally banished for obvious yet unexplainable reasons"

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Its to do with 2 roman legions that were expunged from history because they lost their wars.

 

Given that 40k draws a lot of its themes from historic parallels thats why there are 2 missing legions.