Hellhound vs Banewolf

[Normal Norman]

I am wondering about the various merits of the two fast tanks:

 

Vs GEQ the Hellhound is the clear winner with the added bonus of doubling out T3 characters.

Vs TEQ the Hellhound also probably is the winner due to being able to hit more models on average with torrent.

Vs MCs the Banewolf is able to wound more consistently but will be in much more danger of being assaulted the next turn.

 

Vs MEQ is where I am unsure. The Banewolf will be able to do 2.5 times as many wounds as the Hellhound but in practice does the torrent schenanigans allow the Hellhound to hit more MEQ and offset the worse AP?

 

The psychological value of a Banewolf shouldn't be ignored but I imagine that the Hellhound might slip under the radar and take people by surprise.

 

My other thought is about upgrades.

Do people take Melta hull guns for flexibility and puesdo split fire, camo gear to get the hound into a firing position or a dozer blade for similar reasons?

[Emicus]

Torrent is worth it's weight in gold.

[WarriorFish]

Looks like someone has stepped into my librarium ;) I love the Hellhound tanks, they can do a lot but in the right list. The Hellhound is the original and also the best all rounder, so if you're not sure what you're up against or will need it is a solid default choice. As Emicus says torrent is a great rule, letting you put the template within a large radius at almost any angle to cover exactly what you want. That sort of reliability is hard to come by, not to mention on a Fast vehicle.

 

The other variants are specialists (though you could argue the Hellhound is a specialist against non-MEQs) so have a narrower focus. The Banewolf is far superior at dealing with Marines, the AP3 puts it much better than the Hellhound never mind wounding on a 2+! The clarification on grenades makes the Banewolf more survivable but it's best used on a combined effort for example the Banewolf strikes the full squad first then some lasguns or something finish them off.

 

The Banewolf is mean and will attract attention, so keep it hidden and out the way. It's Fast so can get around quickly and is a great reserve unit to send in to sort something out. All of a sudden those drop pod Marine don't feel quite so brave ;) I think of it as an opportunistic hunter, ready to cruelly bully the vulnerable and scurry away to wait for its next chance :lol:

 

The rule of two is in effect of course, so two Banewolfs skulking about in your lines will bring much to your tear jars - but if you're not up against some MEQ or other pricier 3+ units your returns are reduced. It's why I like to give them hull flamers but a multimelta to let it swap to effective tank hunting is also a great idea - though this makes it a huge fire magnet :P

[CoffeeGrunt]

*Flies Devildog flag high.*

 

Banewolf is a much more aggressive unit that needs support to ensure it doesn't just get wrecked, and works well as a counter-offensive unit. It also has a serious fear factor due to that gun. Don't bother putting the Multi-Melta on either of them, though, as it doesn't mesh with the main gun. The Banewolf is pretty much dedicated to anti-Marine duties, (it doesn't really do enough Wounds to bother with anti-MC.)

 

The Hellhound is far more of a generalist. Decent range, decent AP, Torrent, and decent Strength. It can slap Raiders, it can melt Guardsmen, it can harass MEQs. You'll rarely go wrong with it, but if you're facing a pure Marine list you'd probably find yourself wishing you'd brought the Banewolf.

 

Or the Devildog. :P

[Normal Norman]

One tactic that I had thought of using with a Hellhound with a multi Melta was selecting a vehicle as a primary target and just hitting it with the tip of the flame template. The bulb would then be angled so as catch a nearby infantry squad. I would then be able to fire the Melta at the vehicle with impunity (albeit only hitting half the time). Or is that too situational?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Template rules state that you must cover as much of the target as possible with the Template. Even without that, it's incredibly situational, (you need Infantry to be hugging said tank.)

 

Also a single BS3 Multi-Melta is nothing to write home about.

[WarriorFish]

It's viable, as long as a part of the template is within the torrent range and the larger end further away than the shorter you can place it wherever you like if it touches the target tank. It may be situational true, but with vehicles used as blockers and dismounting from transports you might get a few more shakes than you thought especially with the Hellhound being Fast. You could close into that 12" range quite well.

 

edit: isn't the rule as many models in the unit as possible? Would be worth checking.

[Normal Norman]

I will have a read of the rule book later. What is the consensus on camo gear for a Hellhound etc?

[WarriorFish]

I'd say no, they're a little overpriced sadly so keeping costs down is a good idea. It might be worth it to keep them alive from the opening salvos as the enemy tries to remove them before they slag their attacking units though? Depends on how much attention they get.

[zero88]

I'd say smoke launchers or a dozer blade are the two best options depending on the terrain setup, whatever will give you the better position and cover save after moving on your first turn. Camo netting is just too much for what it does.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Personally I feel that the Banewolf is just too short ranged. The Hellhound and Devlldog both have longer range. I've been wanting a Hellhound, but I lack any way to fit it into a list, since my FA slots are usually highly competitive...

[Indefragable]

As someone who has become fairly disgruntled with the IG overall ("welcome to the Guard, son!"), I have to say the Hellhound has been one of the brightspots of the Codex that continues to impress me. If nothing else, it is a different unit than most of the rest of the Codex. The Fast, AV12 on the Side with a Torrent weapon Hellhound is something that takes a few games to get used to, no matter what flavor of Guard you play. But the most important thing is that it will almost always catch your opponent off guard. You think it's tricky to get used to using it? Your opponent won't really know what to do with it. 

 

As always, the standard disclaimer of "it all depends on what's in the rest of your army" applies. 

 

Devil Dogs and Banewolves are decent, IMO, if you bring 3+ of them. Fast F/S AV12 is not bad at all. However, the problem is that once you start spending that kind of money, you have to ask yourself why you aren't just bringing an other Vanquisher. Or Imperial Knight. A single Hellhound, however, is what Goldilocks likes since its the just-right balance of cost, lethality, speed, and expendability. 

 

 

Aim at infantry (from TEQ to cultists) and go full-bore for them. It's speed and range will catch your opponent napping. I think the S6 AP4 is the pefect type of weapon to fly under the radar as well. Melta and AP3 2+ Poisoned scream "Priority Threat!" but the Hellhound is subtly dangerous. MEQ will see AP4 and laugh it off until they realize you can manuever around to cross their T* and get whole units under the template, and wound them all on 2's.

 

If you luck out (or find a way to guarantee getting it) the WT that let's you Outflank....you just cleared the enemy's entire backfield. Even if he has it filled with Devastators, every lascannon your Hellhound eats is one less that your Punisher has to eat.

 

LIkewise, huge blobs will simply disappear against this thing. Pair it with two Wyverns and spend the rest of your army's points on AT stuff. Just dirty. 

 

So yea, I, personally, lean towards the Hellhound myself. 

 

 

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_T 

[CoffeeGrunt]

My Devildog killed two Land Raiders and a Predator last game - so I may be a little biased - but personally I run them as a kinda cruiser tank to complement the other AT threats. They have to strike from the right direction, pick off unsupported prey, and pray for good rolls. Big stuff like Land Raiders can be surprisingly tough to miss, and with AP1 it has the AT edge over a Vanquisher. It also presents a clear and immediate threat in the way a Vanquisher really can't. It can chase targets, forcing them to abandon accuracy in the face of getting the heck out of its way...then you tell them it's Fast, chase them 12" and put another hole in 'em. ;)

 

I'd never rely on it as my main AT, and I think all Hellhound variants ought to be around 15pts cheaper, but I think it works great as a support element for my playstyle. YMMV. If it got cheaper it'd become my main AT platform I think, mainly because I like how it plays.

[unitron]

I`d say Hellhounds/Banewolves should be taken for cool looking models and fluff reasons only - they`re simply not the BEST choice in terms of gameplay...

 

Competitively speaking Leman Russ Eradictor just does everything Hellhounds/Banewolves do, only better (including better armor and ca 3 times bigger effective weapon range) while being 5/10 pts cheaper.

 

The only possible advantage Hellhounds/Banewolves may have over LRE I can think of is their chimera hull (lower profile - easier to hide). But still, I`d rather disregard this factor as  being too sitational and minor.

 

Consider taking an LRE.

[Normal Norman]

The DemonCanines are over costed but they have other advantages over an Eradicator:

 

A Hellhound cannot miss with its primary weapon.

Templates hit the passengers in open top transports.

The Hellhound can move to contest objective much more easily.

Space Marines will often underestimate a Hellhound.

 

I take your point but it depends on your army composition. Going forwards the Hellhound synergises well veterans in Chimeras whereas the Eradicator sits back as part of the gunline. On a personal note I prepared to pay 15 pts more for the fun and coolness of it.

In regards to the potential tactic of hitting a tank with just the tip of the template so you can short with a MM, CoffeeGrunt was right in saying that you need to hit a vehicle with as much of the template as possible.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You forgot the other disadvantage the Eradicator has. It's slow. Being a Heavy vehicle means it can never move faster than combat speed (6" for those who haven't memorized the terms). The hellhounds (and variants) are fast, which means they can move 12" and still fire 1 weapon at full BS. Most Leman Russ tanks are too slow for short ranged guns. The Demolisher is an exception though.

[MagicHat]

You forgot the other disadvantage the Eradicator has. It's slow. Being a Heavy vehicle means it can never move faster than combat speed (6" for those who haven't memorized the terms). The hellhounds (and variants) are fast, which means they can move 12" and still fire 1 weapon at full BS. Most Leman Russ tanks are too slow for short ranged guns. The Demolisher is an exception though.

 

You can actually move 12" and fire 2 weapons with a Fast vehicle.

 

And that is where my input in this topic ends I guess.

Never seen a hellhound variant used, although the Hellhound would be hell on my skitarii...

[Emicus]

Not to mention a Fast vehicle can also flat out another 12", for 24" total in a pinch. Russes can't move more than 6" per turn. Ever.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Russes can't move more than 6" per turn. Ever.

Unless they're Solar Auxilia, and then they lack the Heavy type, allowing them to move 12".

[CoffeeGrunt]

30K only in most circles for the Solar Auxilia though, which is a shame.

 

Yeah, discounting the Hellhound out of hand is a bit silly. For one, there's the aforementioned benefits of speed and the fact that it simply hits, no need to worry about it. More than that, you can hit precisely how you want to. The Eradicator is still a solid choice, but if you're strapped for Heavy Support slots, a Hellhound is a good replacement.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

30K only in most circles for the Solar Auxilia though, which is a shame.

True. Though, most folks I know wouldn't mind facing off against a 30k army.

 

 

Yeah, discounting the Hellhound out of hand is a bit silly. For one, there's the aforementioned benefits of speed and the fact that it simply hits, no need to worry about it. More than that, you can hit precisely how you want to. The Eradicator is still a solid choice, but if you're strapped for Heavy Support slots, a Hellhound is a good replacement.

I'd almost say that the hellhound is a better choice. The eradicator is a solid choice, if you have the heavy support slots to spare, but I'd almost rather have the HS slots to use on artillery.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I tend to have a HS slot dedicated to a Medusa, and normally an LRBT as well, so I don't have many spare normally.

[Indefragable]

I always reserve one, if not two, HS slots for Wyverns. Best unit in the Codex.

 

Their long-range Shredding threat combined with the Fast Torrent of the Hellhound WILL do work on your opponent.

[CyderPirate]

It's already been mentioned, but I think one of the major advantages of the Hellhound is its apparent threat level. It doesn't sound particularly scary on the surface - most of the time anyway, Orks will be pretty worried by it - but it still does a lot of work.

 

Preference for me is a hellhound armed with a multi-melta and a dozer blade. Keep it in reserve, then murder whatever's advancing up the field, or has deepstriked in from T2 onwards.

[duz_]

Great for frying SM scouts off objectives ;)