Leman Russ, The Great Wolf by Chris Wraight (LE)

[Leif Bearclaw]

The 13th company being set up around Russ's own Fenrisian shieldbrothers isn't new, it goes back to Wolf at the Door in Tales of Heresy, came out a good seven years ago and two years before Prospero Burns. Hundreds of warriors, all well past their teens, demanded they be accepted for implementation. Forty survived, under Bulvye, and formed the core of the 13th company. Perfectly plausible that as the first Fenrisian recruits to the legion, and ones whose age may already have brought irregularities to the transformation process, they manifested the wulfen curse.

 

 

OK, so the retcon's earlier than I thought. But my questions remain. Why segregate the adult recruits into one company of 13? If they were Russ's oldest comrades, why the 13th and not the 1st? Would there really be enough of them left after 100+ years of the GC to still dominate the makeup of the Company (even allowing for more than 40, given the boost in Legion sizes post PB)? Why is Dulan apparently the first time the Curse of the Wulfen crops up, despite the campaign being set towards the end of the Great Crusade?

[Sandlemad]

 

The 13th company being set up around Russ's own Fenrisian shieldbrothers isn't new, it goes back to Wolf at the Door in Tales of Heresy, came out a good seven years ago and two years before Prospero Burns. Hundreds of warriors, all well past their teens, demanded they be accepted for implementation. Forty survived, under Bulvye, and formed the core of the 13th company. Perfectly plausible that as the first Fenrisian recruits to the legion, and ones whose age may already have brought irregularities to the transformation process, they manifested the wulfen curse.

 

 

OK, so the retcon's earlier than I thought. But my questions remain. Why segregate the adult recruits into one company of 13? If they were Russ's oldest comrades, why the 13th and not the 1st? Would there really be enough of them left after 100+ years of the GC to still dominate the makeup of the Company (even allowing for more than 40, given the boost in Legion sizes post PB)? Why is Dulan apparently the first time the Curse of the Wulfen crops up, despite the campaign being set towards the end of the Great Crusade?

 

 

As an honour. Wolf at the Door says that Russ formed the 13th around them as an honour, that they might stay together just as they did on Fenris. They were called the Greybeards by the rest of the legion. The first company already existed and, if it was anything like the other pre-primarch legions, probably had its own veteran identity. We know how clannish SW are, all about sticking to their lord and company.

That they were made the 13th company and not the 1st hardly seems like a fluff-breaking disaster. I can see your reasoning behind them being Russ's companions but it doesn't automatically follow that they be made the 1st company rather than their own formation who could do things their own way.

 

I mean this isn't even a retcon. We never knew the great crusade background of the 13th company (barring the names of a few leaders and campaigns), and I say this as someone who collected a 13th company force when they came out and has frantically scoured the sources for more info on them since then. There's not much more than the EoT stuff, an IA article, a few WD battle reports, a Ragnar novel and a short story featuring Coteaz, all of which was even heavier on the fallible viewpoint and multiple possibilities than most 40k background. I haven't particularly cared for the recent Warzone Fenris stuff but nothing in the HH background of the 13th company has been erased or removed, just some pre-Prospero detail added.

 

In terms of numbers, Wolf at the Door only dwells in detail on the lord of the company, Bulvye, and some of his guards. They're all Russ's shieldbrothers. There's nothing to suggest that they are the most numerous or that they are a majority, even. 

But this term, 'dominate the makeup of the company' by the end of the GC, where did that come from? It's not in the short story in Tales of Heresy, it's not in RFD's excellent summary, we have no idea if it's in the novel that this thread is discussing.

For that matter, why do you think that this is the first time that the curse has appeared? I see nothing in RFD's notes to directly suggest this, only that the members of the company are not aware of the curse outside their own formation. Perhaps it was the first time it appeared for them. Perhaps it appeared before and this is the only time they have been caught in a 'sting'. Perhaps it had appeared at other times outside the 13th co. and had been kept secret by Russ and the einherjar, just as Sanguinius kept the secret of the red thirst from the wider BA legion in Fear to Tread.

 

Let alone the stuff about SW firing on DA, getting aggravated on the basis of a (well put together but succinct) summary of a novel, lacking context and detail, seems unnecessary.

[Leif Bearclaw]

As an honour. Wolf at the Door says that Russ formed the 13th around them as an honour, that they might stay together just as they did on Fenris. They were called the Greybeards by the rest of the legion. The first company already existed and, if it was anything like the other pre-primarch legions, probably had its own veteran identity. We know how clannish SW are, all about sticking to their lord and company.

That they were made the 13th company and not the 1st hardly seems like a fluff-breaking disaster. I can see your reasoning behind them being Russ's companions but it doesn't automatically follow that they be made the 1st company rather than their own formation who could do things their own way.

Fair point. Although given what little we knew about the 13th previously was 'Wulfen marked dudes were sent to this company', I'd still call it a retcon. Maybe not a major one given the continuing paucity of information on the 30k Wolves (just an older one than I thought ), but it does also make the 13th a bit overdosed with traits. Russ's veterans and the the Wulfen concentration. Can't say I'm a fan of that. Though I do kinda expect nothing but awfulness and misery regarding the 13th these days after the abomination that was Curse of the Wulfen.

But this term, 'dominate the makeup of the company' by the end of the GC, where did that come from? It's not in the short story in Tales of Heresy, it's not in RFD's excellent summary, we have no idea if it's in the novel that this thread is discussing.

That seemed to be the implication of "The 13th are those who took the gene-seed as adults." from R_F_D's summary.

For that matter, why do you think that this is the first time that the curse has appeared?

Because they apparently hide it, even from Russ. They even resolve to 'look for a cure'. That suggests to me that this is a new phenomenon, otherwise it would be referenced differently. Something like 'continue the search'.

Perhaps it had appeared at other times outside the 13th co. and had been kept secret by Russ and the einherjar, just as Sanguinius kept the secret of the red thirst from the wider BA legion in Fear to Tread.

But this would then beg the question of what changes at the tail end of the GC, to the point that the Wulfen are an obvious and apparent component of the 13th, present in enough numbers to be used as shock formations by the time of Prospero? The whole intra Legion secrecy about the Curse is something we've never seen referenced before, as far as I'm aware.

Apologies if I've misunderstood R_F_D's summary here.

That said, as I've been pretty negative in this thread, I'll throw in one positive I took from that summary. Keeping the showdown on Terra after the Siege. Always annoyed me how Russ, and then the Lion, putting the rivalry aside, because of how immaterial it was in light of the fest of the Heresy got left out of later prints of 'The Lion and The Wolf'. Although as neither Chapter kept a copy of that memo, I guess it kinda makes sense

[DarkChaplain]

Even in A Thousand Sons, the Wulfen thing is still pretty under wraps. Looking at The Thirteenth Wolf, out soon, it also looks like the 13th isn't devolved yet. In fact, it looks very much like the collective fall to the curse happens *after* Prospero, due to them pursuing the Thousand Sons into the Warp and getting stuck there for about 10,000 years.

[Sandlemad]

 

 

For that matter, why do you think that this is the first time that the curse has appeared?

Because they apparently hide it, even from Russ. They even resolve to 'look for a cure'. That suggests to me that this is a new phenomenon, otherwise it would be referenced differently. Something like 'continue the search'.

 

 

Perhaps it had appeared at other times outside the 13th co. and had been kept secret by Russ and the einherjar, just as Sanguinius kept the secret of the red thirst from the wider BA legion in Fear to Tread.

But this would then beg the question of what changes at the tail end of the GC, to the point that the Wulfen are an obvious and apparent component of the 13th, present in enough numbers to be used as shock formations by the time of Prospero? The whole intra Legion secrecy about the Curse is something we've never seen referenced before, as far as I'm aware.

 

I'll be honest here, I don't think we can profitably discuss this in detail without either picking apart RFD's summary at the sentence level, which would inevitably seem like grilling him unfairly for info when he has already been so generous to those of us who haven't read Leman Russ (seriously RFD, cheers), or focus entirely on the Wolf at the Door, which isn't the subject of this thread. 

 

RE: the intra-legion secrecy surrounding the wulfen, it really doesn't seem that new to me in the context of the heresy. All the legions have some paranoia and in many cases the primarchs and senior marines (EC, RG, BA, TS) lie to wider legion bodies about genetic stuff. Even in 40k ("Mark this well - of the 13th Company we do not speak.") the curse is something spoken of in hushed tones within the chapter. 

 

Dark Chaplain's right in saying that The Thirteenth Wolf looks like it'll address a large part of the 13th company's background, one way or another. You mention the paucity in our knowledge: without actually reading Leman Russ ourselves we still don't know the full context/details of the events at Duran and how secret the curse was during the crusade. Inferno will probably pull a scouring-era imperial scholar's reconstruction of Prospero and offer some explanation of what the role of the wulfen was. 

 

Hell, given that there is some idea that the curse is somehow a reaction to/defence against the warping effects of chaos (to one degree or another, as seen in Ahriman: Sorcerer), I could very easily believe that the wulfen were not an obvious and apparent component of the 13th company on Prospero, but rather a sudden reaction to the chaotic madness that engulfed Tizca in the last hours of the assault on the great pyramid. We have so far only seen their assault from Ahriman's point of view, where he sees them as deliberate (and hypocritical) mutant shock troops. What if instead they were something that the 13th company - or the legion at large - had kept under wraps and under control since Duran? What if the curse only came back with a vengeance at that critical moment, forever associating the 13th company with the wulfen? We don't know.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

For that matter, why do you think that this is the first time that the curse has appeared?

Because they apparently hide it, even from Russ. They even resolve to 'look for a cure'. That suggests to me that this is a new phenomenon, otherwise it would be referenced differently. Something like 'continue the search'.

 

 

Perhaps it had appeared at other times outside the 13th co. and had been kept secret by Russ and the einherjar, just as Sanguinius kept the secret of the red thirst from the wider BA legion in Fear to Tread.

But this would then beg the question of what changes at the tail end of the GC, to the point that the Wulfen are an obvious and apparent component of the 13th, present in enough numbers to be used as shock formations by the time of Prospero? The whole intra Legion secrecy about the Curse is something we've never seen referenced before, as far as I'm aware.

 

I'll be honest here, I don't think we can profitably discuss this in detail without either picking apart RFD's summary at the sentence level, which would inevitably seem like grilling him unfairly for info when he has already been so generous to those of us who haven't read Leman Russ (seriously RFD, cheers), or focus entirely on the Wolf at the Door, which isn't the subject of this thread. 

 

RE: the intra-legion secrecy surrounding the wulfen, it really doesn't seem that new to me in the context of the heresy. All the legions have some paranoia and in many cases the primarchs and senior marines (EC, RG, BA, TS) lie to wider legion bodies about genetic stuff. Even in 40k ("Mark this well - of the 13th Company we do not speak.") the curse is something spoken of in hushed tones within the chapter. 

 

Dark Chaplain's right in saying that The Thirteenth Wolf looks like it'll address a large part of the 13th company's background, one way or another. You mention the paucity in our knowledge: without actually reading Leman Russ ourselves we still don't know the full context/details of the events at Duran and how secret the curse was during the crusade. Inferno will probably pull a scouring-era imperial scholar's reconstruction of Prospero and offer some explanation of what the role of the wulfen was. 

 

Hell, given that there is some idea that the curse is somehow a reaction to/defence against the warping effects of chaos (to one degree or another, as seen in Ahriman: Sorcerer), I could very easily believe that the wulfen were not an obvious and apparent component of the 13th company on Prospero, but rather a sudden reaction to the chaotic madness that engulfed Tizca in the last hours of the assault on the great pyramid. We have so far only seen their assault from Ahriman's point of view, where he sees them as deliberate (and hypocritical) mutant shock troops. What if instead they were something that the 13th company - or the legion at large - had kept under wraps and under control since Duran? What if the curse only came back with a vengeance at that critical moment, forever associating the 13th company with the wulfen? We don't know.

 

1) It's Dulan! It's not a pop band lol.

2) The Wulfen curse appeared in all companies - not only the 13th. It's illogical that they made a 13th company a garbage trash for all the flawed things.

[Sandlemad]

I'm getting the planet Dulan and the tyrant Durath mixed up. Bit like if the Emperor's real name was Terry...

[R_F_D]

So a few things to say

 
Firsty - apologies for any confusion caused by the synopsis; as I said, it was done at speed as I wanted to fill everyone in and also because it was an amazing page turner!
 
On the issue of retcon regarding the 13th - listening to the the After Ullanor podcast they mentioned Book 10 Tales of Heresy (Wolf at the Door by Mike Lee) which says the same thing about Russ' followers being inducted specifically into the 13th.  Now as they were doing a detailed review with the books in front of them I am going to trust their word as gospel here, so I don't think the charge of retconing the 13th can be levelled at BL within the HH.  I do accept, however, that I haven't read the 40k stuff so have only got one side of the picture.

 

Edit - so listening on (I stopped to write this) they may be an issue with numbers as Wolf at the Door suggests that the number of successful initiates are in the 10s.

 

The Curse of the Wulfen

 

Regarding the curse, it is portrayed specifically as occurring within the 13th who try and hide it. Granted they are the main/only company referred to in detail in the book but Russ does comment to Bloodhowl that he knows of the curse. This dilemma does go some way, I feel, in actually making the relationship between the two (i.e. not knowing that Russ is a primarch on Fenris and accepting him as a human) believable  

 

 

The other thing I would say about the events in the book, specifically chapters 4-5, can be found here White Dwarf 233 pages 22-23.  I made the mistake of only reading page 22 as that covers Dulan and the feud but 23 covers Terra. 

[Silent Observant]

Has anybody from the u.s. Received their copy yet?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

just finished the book.

 

I feel kinda meh about it. I dont know why it didnt click for me, as I have enjoyed everything Wraight has written so far.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

WLK, was it unsatisfying in terms of depth of content or was or more the incongruence issue that has plagued some of the VIth legion's tales so far?

[Mellow]

Well the Guiiliman book was "meh" as well. If this second one is the same then things haven't started very well for the series.

[DarkChaplain]

I actually really liked Guilliman. I finished it a couple of days ago and thought it was better than its reputation on here. It developed pre-Heresy Roboute in a believable way, contrasting his pragmatism with his idealistic streak. The interludes were cool bits that gave wider commentary on the chapters and illustrated his thought processes, and seeing Guilliman in real action for a change and doing some heavy arse-kicking felt satisfying.

 

It did what I hoped it would: Establish the Primarch as a character before the taint of Heresy becomes apparent and lets him bond with his Legion without the baggage of Calth or Imperium Secundus. His attitude towards his commanders is well-handled and it had some important reflections on Monarchia.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

WLK, was it unsatisfying in terms of depth of content or was or more the incongruence issue that has plagued some of the VIth legion's tales so far?

I wanna start by saying that Wraight did a great job fleshing a novel out from blurb in rule books.

 

I think the problem I had with it is that I feel the novel continues the "Worf effect" the Heresy novels had done on the Wolves so far in the Heresy.

I don't want nor care for the Wolves to be portrayed as awesome Vikings of awesomesauce.

I just personally feel as if the bl novels have hyped up the Wolves but their every appearance has them dying to make somebody look awesome or needing rescuing. They feel more like plot devices than characters.

 

Also two nuggets bothered me

 

 

1) Russ not being aware of the Wulfen mutations in the Legion, but by Prospero they are being used as shock troops

2) The Wolf fleet over Dulan. Going straight for the throats every time is more barbarian than hunter. What happened to "it's takes a lot of self control to be this dangerous"?

 

 

[Mellow]

I actually really liked Guilliman. I finished it a couple of days ago and thought it was better than its reputation on here. It developed pre-Heresy Roboute in a believable way, contrasting his pragmatism with his idealistic streak. The interludes were cool bits that gave wider commentary on the chapters and illustrated his thought processes, and seeing Guilliman in real action for a change and doing some heavy arse-kicking felt satisfying.

 

It did what I hoped it would: Establish the Primarch as a character before the taint of Heresy becomes apparent and lets him bond with his Legion without the baggage of Calth or Imperium Secundus. His attitude towards his commanders is well-handled and it had some important reflections on Monarchia.

You have an interesting take on then Novel. Personally it just seemed like a standard Space Marine battle story with an "insert name here" required hero character.

[Augustus]

 

WLK, was it unsatisfying in terms of depth of content or was or more the incongruence issue that has plagued some of the VIth legion's tales so far?

I wanna start by saying that Wraight did a great job fleshing a novel out from blurb in rule books.

 

I think the problem I had with it is that I feel the novel continues the "Worf effect" the Heresy novels had done on the Wolves so far in the Heresy.

I don't want nor care for the Wolves to be portrayed as awesome Vikings of awesomesauce.

I just personally feel as if the bl novels have hyped up the Wolves but their every appearance has them dying to make somebody look awesome or needing rescuing. They feel more like plot devices than characters.

 

Also two nuggets bothered me

 

 

1) Russ not being aware of the Wulfen mutations in the Legion, but by Prospero they are being used as shock troops

2) The Wolf fleet over Dulan. Going straight for the throats every time is more barbarian than hunter. What happened to "it's takes a lot of self control to be this dangerous"?

 

 

 

While it's hard to fault you for this line of thinking. On the other hand, the former stuff was contentious as well. I see how it could seem the balance shifted to the other side of the spectrum.

 

But.

 

When I look at the wolves fiction of 40k it seems that this book was written in the same spirit. Personally, Ragnar Blackmane by AD-B is probably the best work he has ever written and I feel they are in the "same universe".

 

Fenris is unchanging. The world of 30k is the same world in 40k (not tectonically speaking, of course). These guys raiders who possess their own code, their own sense of justice and their own sense of right and wrong. I can easily see them losing themselves to hubris and getting worked up in a moment of anger and hostility. Conversely, there is no better friend to have. They attack others for their secrets, lies, and being closed off, yet they have their own and refuse counsel. 

 

I think attention should be drawn to the fact that it takes wise old wolves to keep the others in check. They are literally like pack animals. Russ comments on this. The Wolf Priest is shown struggling to get a Wolf Lord to understand Russ' actions and how they were wrong.

 

I definitely can see being a Space Wolves fan and being like "We came out worse in our book?" (Dark Angels share your pain as I feel it has happened to us a fair number of times). 

 

Note on the Wulfen: Plenty of time to do something with them, correct? This book is written a few years before Ullanor, although I am actually not certain of this.

[DarkChaplain]

Not having read the book, I'm always a bit stumped when it comes to complaints about books not presenting a particular faction as the awesomest of the awesome. The truth is often more in the middle, and I'd rather read more nuanced takes than clear statements of who is right and who is wrong. I don't need the fiction to confirm my own fandom every time, and getting some new bits of information to discuss is worth more to me personally than wasting time over pure coolness (though I can appreciate that too).

 

Oddly, when a book like this takes a more nuanced, complex stance on a topic, it gets flak from the hardcore fans of the faction, while if it had depicted it all in a favorable light, it would have been the detractors and others calling for "mary sue" treatment and how the "space puppies" are always winning; especially Dark Angels fans have that tendency when it comes to the Wolves, and that's been visible during the War Zone Fenris stuff as well. Not exactly a winning situation for the author, is it?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Augustus: I agree the material in the past was...well over the top. 

I'd be happy if I could find a middle ground.

It exists, and it's the novel you mentioned. "Ragnar Blackmane" is probably the best book on the Wolves in either setting. The book covers so much of his life span we can see him as a violent youth, veteran and then warlord. 

 

My problem with Leman Russ is that the last few books have put emphasis on the Wolves being hunters, being dangerous and largely being in control.

 

One of the first things Bloodhowl does is to ignore calls from his allies, plunge into a fight with little thought and then react like a mindless barbarian.

 

Russ's grand plan? Go for the throat. The Lion even calls attention to this. the novel calls attention to it. TWICE.

 

The cunning hunters of the Vlka Fenryka werent on display in the novel, just some dudes in grey armor.

 

@Dark Chaplain: I really hope that isnt pointed at me. 

I hardly want the Wolves to be the awesomest of the awesome, just to stop being the damsel in distress every release.

Ragnar Blackmane hardly paints the Wolves as being the awesomest of the awesome, yet is probably the best Wolf book released. I think its a mandatory read for every wolf player

[HeritorA]

In general  - I read the book at last and wonna say its much better than Guilliman book. But not the best Wraight book either. Lion and Dulan and duel scenes were amazing, but everything inbetween quite dull

[b1soul]

My problem with Leman Russ is that the last few books have put emphasis on the Wolves being hunters, being dangerous and largely being in control.

I would say prior books have emphasised the Wolves' own belief in how dangerous yet in control they are.

 

Prospero Burns is largely written from their own perspective (and has them being "rescued" from the TSons' maleficarum by the null maidens and Russ). Betrayer shows that Russ can be rather impetuous despite some good intentions. Wolf King reinforces that the Wolves' exceptionalism is psychology they've fostered

 

Objectively, are the Wolves always in control? I highly doubt it.

 

One of the first things Bloodhowl does is to ignore calls from his allies, plunge into a fight with little thought and then react like a mindless barbarian.

 

Russ's grand plan? Go for the throat. The Lion even calls attention to this. the novel calls attention to it. TWICE.

...showing that the Wolves are not always as in control as they claim. I think this is fine.

 

You play barbarian for too long, and the act starts to become real

 

Ragnar Blackmane hardly paints the Wolves as being the awesomest of the awesome, yet is probably the best Wolf book released. I think its a mandatory read for every wolf player

Ragnar Blackmane is generally a very "badass" portrayal of the Wolves...so I'm not surprised that SW fans love it (it is of course well-written as well)

 

However, a central theme is Ragnar's earlier hot-headedness and lack of control.

 

Indeed, his chapter's murder of peace envoys from the Flesh Tearers reflects the same lack of control once the chapter has been offended.

 

Quite consistent with Leman Russ Great Wolf I think

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

NVM 

[Augustus]

@B1soul.

 

Yes. That battle between the beast and the hero is at the fore for many wolves. Russ knows this. Ragnar did not. Most of his brethren did not. Only the wise(er) wolves. Those long in the tooth who have (somewhat) mastered their control can realize their errors. 

 

You can see this in the Emperor's Gift where the belief in their moral superiority caused a brief war with the Inquisition and it took Bjorn himself to end it by pointing out how both sides were wrong.

 

This is one of the reasons why I see them in "same universe" of 40k.

[Tymell]

I just finished it today, and I give it a thumbs up. The Lion vs. Russ fight at the end is of course the highlight, and it's really well done. It flows perfectly, it sounds rough and fierce, and I think most importantly, it feels very natural and justified. It doesn't come across like Chris Wraight had to write them as idiots or otherwise out of character in order to get them to this point, it's these two huge egos meeting, different but each with his own kind of arrogance, and they end up coming to blows. Neither one is clearly in the right, both make mistakes, and that lends it a nice tragic air. It's not like, as an example, some superhero comics where two heroes meet and immediately come to blows for no real reason. This one feels real, and a result of well-written characters.

 

The post-Heresy framing is a nice touch too, it's not the first story to do it, but you do get a good sense of tragedy in the aftermath, of what's been lost despite the warfare continuing. Not so much so that it detracts from the main story, but it's there.

 

So yeah, I liked it, better than Guilliman's one (and I didn't dislike that), solid entry.

[Roomsky]

Seems someone on Goodreads had a rather different interpretation of events.

 

[Legatus]

Perhaps there was some altered passage in the "leaked" version again?