Kais Klip Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 My moment of glory: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NZ/Leman-Russ-Primarch-of-the-Space-Wolves Hah, victory is mine, ninjas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Actually, check the Leman Russ thread in N&R. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Hah, a feeble parry, for these are no longer rumours! You'll never lock me! k just let me have this pls Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamy248 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Eh, the rules FW has released are not final rules, and they lack the space wolf special rules + his personal warmer (I think). They have released some stand-in rules for him for gaming use until the next HH book drops. As such, his special rules seem quite weak compared to other primarchs, and the wargear will obviously change in the next HH book. I mean, a primarch welding a generic power axe + paragon blade? C'mon?! One thing I found interesting with these rules is the price of Russ. 400pts is pretty cheap for a primarch. Also... WEAPON SKILL 9?! That's pretty good Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Not rumors but it is news sooo yeah.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 400 points is apt to me, at best he'll be a lesser beatstick than Angron but with a few negligible force multipliers, namely giving his sons counterattack and an offensive USR. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Hmmm should be interesting to see what his full rules are in Inferno, nice of FW to provide temporary rules so players can use him though stills makes you wonder when Inferno will actually be released Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 WS9 I7, he's the only dude on par with Angron with those stats! They even both have A6. That's about as an even match as you can get before Angron's nails start biting. Even guys like Horus, Fulgrim, and Kurze are at WS8. It will be interesting to see if Sanguinius hits 9 or will be 8. So going by FW stats we can start ranking the Primarchs again. Best skill at arms (weapon skill): Tier 1 (WS9): Angron, Russ Tier 2 (WS8): Horus, Fulgrim, Kurze, Perturabo and Dorn Tier 3 (WS7): Corax, Alpharius, Ferrus, Guilliman, Vulkan, Mortarion Tier 4 (WS6): Lorgar Speed (initiative and attacks): Tier 1 (I8, A5*): Fulgrim Tier 1.5 (I7, A6): Angron, Russ, Corax Tier 2 (I7, A5): Kurze Tier 3 (I6, A5): Horus, Alpharius Tier 4 (I6, A4): Guilliman, Lorgar Tier 5 (I5, A4): Perturabo, Dorn, Ferrus, Mortarion, Vulkan Most aggressive (number of attacks): Tier 1 (A6): Angron, Russ, CoraxTier 2 (A5): Horus, Fulgrim, Kurze, Alpharius Tier 3 (A4): everyone else Strength: Tier 1 (S7): Perturabo, Ferrus, Horus, Vulkan, Angron Tier 2 (S6): Everyone else Toughness (wounds as secondary characteristic): Tier 1 (T7, W7) Mortarion Tier 1.5 (T7, W6): Ferrus, Vulkan Tier 2 (T6, W6): Everyone else Tier 2.5 (T6, W5): Lorgar Best marksmanship: Tier 1 (BS7): Alpharius Tier 2 (BS6): Corax, Guilliman, Kurze, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Russ, Lorgar, Ferrus Tier 3 (BS5): Vulkan, Horus, Mortarion, Angron, Dorn So physical strength seems to be where the Primarchs vary the least, with nearly a third of their number being a bit stronger than their brothers, with only Angron and Horus being able to use that strength with any kind of grace or dexterity. They are the lean athlete to the others' bulky bodybuilders. Fulgrim is the fastest. Mortarion is the toughest. The best marksman is Alpharius, with a surprising amount of Primarchs actually being relatively terrible shots. Lorgar is the biggest , being the worst at throwing a punch and having the frailest constitution. I know I have attacks in two categories there, but that was more notes for me while calculating the speed tiers. Just as a note, I didn't add extra CCW bonuses because conceivably they could all pick up a second CCW and throwing their equipment into the mix makes these comparisons harder. So now we can do some more interesting comparisons that people actually care about. Most Skilled Overall Warrior (WS+BS) Gold Medal (15): Russ the Wolf King, Aroooo!! Silver Medal (14): Angron, Fulgrim, Kurze, Alpharius, Perturabo Bronze Medal (13): Dorn, Horus, Guilliman, Corax, Mortarion, Ferrus Most Dangerous Up Close (WS+S+I+A) Gold Medal (28): Angron the Red Angel, Come Get Some! Silver Medal (27): Russ, Fulgrim Bronze Medal (26): Corax, Horus, Kurze Most awarded Medalist: Legends: Russ with gold and silver, Angron with gold and silver Champions: Fulgrim with two silvers Contenders: Kurze with silver and bronze Honorable mention: Corax and Horus with 2 bronze Seems about right. Of course, we still have three more warlike Primarchs (Khan, Sanguinius, and the Lion) who should all shake these up. For the Lion I am expecting WS8 I7 A5 to match Kurze, standard S/T, and maybe the second Primarch to get BS7. So he would tie Russ for overall most skilled warrior, and take bronze for up close and personal combat. For Sanguinius I am thinking WS8 (among the greatest warriors, but as sword-skilled as Russ and Angron? Perhaps...), I8 (extra speed from those wings!), A6 (the thirst! the rage! definitely among the more aggressive). Probably standard S/T/W of 6. BS may be 5 because we never seem him shoot a gun ever, lol. So he would tie for gold with Angron for most dangerous dude up close, and take bronze in overall warrior. I have no idea about the Khan... probably like WS8, I7, A5 with standard 6s for everything else. So silver overall, bronze up close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I imagine Sanguinius is going to be more similar to Fulgrim than Angron or Horus. The skilled duelist versus the peerless warrior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Doesnt that ignore all wargear, weapons and special rules of the characters that would very much impact where they land on the list? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Doesnt that ignore all wargear, weapons and special rules of the characters that would very much impact where they land on the list? Yes, we're not talking mathhammer, just raw stats. Most of the special rules are derived from their fancy wargear, so everyone gets a rock and a loincloth. What other intrinsic stuff can we consider? If Corax gets a good roll on his kung-fu, he beats Fulgrim in speed and Angron for highest overall melee stats. He actually jumps to Angron's level even with just a charge since he gets +1S and +1I, but overall I tried not to mess with charging bonuses since they are transient and make the charts a sliding mess. Still, good for you, Raven Lord, maybe your musings that only Angron and Sanguinius are serious contenders carry more heft than we first thought! If Guilliman fights someone for 4 rounds, he reaches bronze level in close combat once he hits WS10. Fulgrim gets at least 1 extra attack vs. everyone, so that would have him tying Angron for best duelist, leaving Russ at silver by his lonesome. Vulkan can re-roll IWND which closes the gap (making the three toughest Mortarion>Vulkan>Ferrus?). Angron gets extra attacks for killing stuff, Russ gets counter-assault. Doesn't really change anything about the rankings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Horus has the attacks that reduce S and can concuss him. Raw stats are meaningless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 *sigh* You folks can be so obtuse. I am just ranking their raw stats for insight into how FW views the Primarchs in various physical markers. Think naked Greek-style Olympics rather than mathhammer. If you want the latter, you can look it up on 4-chan. Horus's claw is why he wins most combats. So when discussing "who is the best swordsman", we know Russ and Angron are most comfortable with a blade. When we consider who can take a beating, we know it's Mortarion. etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 http://66.media.tumblr.com/8e1ff2f56144c435e961058745458361/tumblr_mqm0qbH01O1r3vs52o2_500.gif Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 He called you more than 90° and less than 180°. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 How much ++? Can't open from mobile Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 2+ / 4++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 *sigh* You folks can be so obtuse. I am just ranking their raw stats for insight into how FW views the Primarchs in various physical markers. Why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Doesnt that ignore all wargear, weapons and special rules of the characters that would very much impact where they land on the list? Massively. Guilliman and Horus (and possibly others I forgot) can make their WS higher than opponent's, most Tier 4/5 in I primarchs can make opponent Tier 9 concussing them (not to mention some other exotic crippling effects), primarchs with fists, hammers, maces etc have 3-4 more S than anyone else (especially Russ, since he has high I they can go to town with 2x S weapons without penalty), etc, etc. Russ is extremely outclassed due to his lacklustre placeholder gear, most of 'weaker' primarchs would have little problems beating him to a pulp. Especially funny would be Russ vs Logar matchup, Lorgar can win without being hit once due to his psychic powers that are still much weaker than anything Magnus can bring to table, despite being 'weakest' combatant. So, ironically, unless Magnus has all the good powers banned, going by Lorgar match, Magnus should beat Russ 10 times out of 10. Not quite what happened in the fluff, eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 *sigh* You folks can be so obtuse. I am just ranking their raw stats for insight into how FW views the Primarchs in various physical markers. Why?To see if the stats are representative of the Primarchs' characteristics as we have been shown them, versus the fluffiness of the special rules or straight up mathhammer. An example would be, do Angron's stats match his warrior base mindset?Yes, they do. It's an extremely simple way of going "We can group these Primarchs in this manner by their Strength, WS, I etc and possibly guesstimate on what Sanguinius' stats might be based on the Primarchs he is most like in combat." Or, in this specific case, "Do Leman Russ' stats accurately reflect him as a primal warrior?" Since they're on par with Angron, yes. Obviously the wargear and special rules will be what keep him from just being a re-skinned Angron, but those are unknown yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I seriously hope that his axe is more than just a power axe with his official rules because currently just swing that sword all the time for same stats at I 6s = dead bodies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I have full faith that his special frost axe with kraken teeth will be more than just a normal power axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I like the Russ rules as place holders. I think he will see some big changes when he gets his real rules. I am surprised he does not have a rule for his howl, in the fluff when he howls it breaks psykers concentration so maybe a once per game dispel? It would allow him to go toe to toe with Magnus. On that note if they make Magnus and the sons too crazy with psychic powers I think we will see sisters in every loyalist army which would be sad, I hope they manage to strike a good balance because psykers are so rare in 30K most armies have no defence against them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Quite disappointing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 His axe is now a smooth blade not a chain blade Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/#findComment-4540761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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