Marshal Rohr Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Russ is an absolute beast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I'm digging his stats just itching to get full rules for him... oh and the model itself but the wallet speaks otherwise lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I know it's just a placeholder profile, but seriously? A measly power axe? Couldn't they at least copy-pasted a frost axe from the 40k codex or something?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I know it's just a placeholder profile, but seriously? A measly power axe? Couldn't they at least copy-pasted a frost axe from the 40k codex or something?! Yes, because Russ really needs that +2 S in order to compete. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Didn't think about that, just thought a power axe is very underwhelming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 *sigh* You folks can be so obtuse. I am just ranking their raw stats for insight into how FW views the Primarchs in various physical markers. Why? Because its a fun discussion and we have enough data now to really get a cool idea of it. WS10 for Sanguinius or bust ;) I expect him to fully be the most expensive Primarch tied with or exceeding Horus and Pert Hammer. But I'm bias. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I doubt very much that any Primarch will have a cost that exceeds Horus. If anybody is going to do it, it will be Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 My favorite is him counting as a vexilla...when he's fearless. i think that trumps the paragon blade-axe combo for lack of foresight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 *sigh* You folks can be so obtuse. I am just ranking their raw stats for insight into how FW views the Primarchs in various physical markers. Why? Because every other argument on BOLS is "Angron totally kicked Russ's ass... nuh-uh, he let him win!" "Ferrus can bench more than Vulkan, nuh-uh, he cheating with those metal arms!". It's just a rare circumstance where we have an actual statistic to compare, with WS one of the few stats that run the full gamut of 0-10. Plus, it's actually impressive how closely to the background FW managed to make the Legions and their Sires. I dunno, it was like 2AM and I was bored/excited about the new releases? Pardon me all to hell for finding joy in various aspects of our hobby, I guess? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyld Fireblade Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Doesnt that ignore all wargear, weapons and special rules of the characters that would very much impact where they land on the list? Massively. Guilliman and Horus (and possibly others I forgot) can make their WS higher than opponent's, most Tier 4/5 in I primarchs can make opponent Tier 9 concussing them (not to mention some other exotic crippling effects), primarchs with fists, hammers, maces etc have 3-4 more S than anyone else (especially Russ, since he has high I they can go to town with 2x S weapons without penalty), etc, etc. Russ is extremely outclassed due to his lacklustre placeholder gear, most of 'weaker' primarchs would have little problems beating him to a pulp. Especially funny would be Russ vs Logar matchup, Lorgar can win without being hit once due to his psychic powers that are still much weaker than anything Magnus can bring to table, despite being 'weakest' combatant. So, ironically, unless Magnus has all the good powers banned, going by Lorgar match, Magnus should beat Russ 10 times out of 10. Not quite what happened in the fluff, eh? Doesnt that ignore all wargear, weapons and special rules of the characters that would very much impact where they land on the list? Massively. Guilliman and Horus (and possibly others I forgot) can make their WS higher than opponent's, most Tier 4/5 in I primarchs can make opponent Tier 9 concussing them (not to mention some other exotic crippling effects), primarchs with fists, hammers, maces etc have 3-4 more S than anyone else (especially Russ, since he has high I they can go to town with 2x S weapons without penalty), etc, etc. Russ is extremely outclassed due to his lacklustre placeholder gear, most of 'weaker' primarchs would have little problems beating him to a pulp. Especially funny would be Russ vs Logar matchup, Lorgar can win without being hit once due to his psychic powers that are still much weaker than anything Magnus can bring to table, despite being 'weakest' combatant. So, ironically, unless Magnus has all the good powers banned, going by Lorgar match, Magnus should beat Russ 10 times out of 10. Not quite what happened in the fluff, eh? Horus does not make his WS higher than 8, and Guilliman takes several turns in order to do so, he does not get it immediately. Concussion is of minimal concern to the Primarchs in a challenge with each other, yes it is not good but it is not devastating either. Plus if you compare the other Primarchs with their complete badass rules to Russ with his minimum effort for FW placeholder rules will always leave him outclassed. Save the full comparison till Inferno releases. You are assuming that these are his final rules and cost and that is wrong. Only his base stats are official and that is what was being compared. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 His stat line is second to none. I greatly appreciate the comparison Terminus so thanks. It will be a monster when he gets his wargear and special rules, and a base cost of 400 for a "naked" primarch speaks to that. He might only be less expensive than Horus and Sanguinius when all is said and done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4540966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 With regard to toughness, does Angron not only have 5 wounds and not 6? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyld Fireblade Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 With regard to toughness, does Angron not only have 5 wounds and not 6? With regard to toughness, does Angron not only have 5 wounds and not 6? Angron does only have 5 and he is the only Primarch without a 2+ save, he is a glass cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Yes that's something I missed in my original comparison, so actually puts Angron in the same category as Lorgar for durability. I didn't bother changing it though, because out of all the Primarchs, Angron is the only one badass enough to go out there in some leather pants and t-shirt (3+ save equivalent for primarch's gear), so he gets a +1 balls of steel bonus to keep him out of that unfortunate company. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Guilliman's Weapon Skill grows each turn of fighting one particular opponent. So essentially he is really skilled, he just need's a while to get into it. Once the opponents disengage Guilliman will mentally file what he had just learned under "not that important" (somewhere below "maintaining ink, papyrus and sealing wax stocks for purity seals"), so when the two opponents go at it again he will need a few seconds to adjust again. After two rounds he will be at WS 9, the level of Horus and Angron. After three rounds, he will be at WS 10, higher than any of the other Primarchs. Taken over the entire fight, his average WS will vary depending how long the fight lasts: 1 Round: WS 7 2 Rounds: WS 7.5 3 Rounds: WS 8 4 Rounds: WS 8.5 5 Rounds: WS 8.8 6 Rounds: WS 9 7 Rounds: WS 9.1 8 Rounds: WS 9.3 If there is only a quick exchange then Guilliman will be at a disadvantage. But if the two opponents duke it out he start's having the WS advantage. If an average Primarch fight lasts for 3 rounds, it would be fairer to treat Guilliman as WS 8 for the purpose of comparing the represented Primarch's fighting abilities. Or maybe even higher, if those fights are usually expected to last even longer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Guilliman is hands down one of the best Primarchs, if not the best. Before we judge Russ we should see the full Rules once Inferno is released. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 If you look at a couple of posts after my initial analysis, I mentioned all the intrinsic non-gear variables the Primarchs have. Guilliman reaches bronze level in close combat (WS+S+I+A) to tie Horus once his WS hits 10. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I like the stats breakdown. Forgeworld needs to make a Rock-and-Loincloth line of the Character Series Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 ^ That actually would be pretty cool. Chibi-Primarch children after the scattering? So a feral Kurze, Dorn with his blanky, Russ doing his best Mowgli etc. @ Legatus: Horus is actually WS8. The only ones at WS9 are Angron and Russ so far. It's just that Horus's fighting style (and giant claw) allows him to win a protracted battle by slowly debilitating his opponent. Doesn't matter how good you are with a sword if your tendons are severed. So I guess the rankings for close combat would be would be Angron > Russ > Horus > Guilliman > Angron > Russ? Speed, toughness and marksmanship are pretty much locked up by Fulgrim, Mortarion and Alpharius, respectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 That, or just the exact same poses but with rocks lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 @ Legatus: Horus is actually WS8. The only ones at WS9 are Angron and Russ so far. Ah, my bad. I even checked your list to see who were the WS 9 guys, but then forgot to edit my post after all. Well, there is comparing the rules of the fully armed Primarchs to evaluate their capability in the game, and there is comparing the "skill" of each Primarch sans equipment to see who is inherently a capable combatant. But for the latter I would say that "inherent" special abilities should be included. They do not appear in the raw stat line, but they would be available to the Primarch no matter the weapon setup or encounter. If Guilliman had not been given such a fancy special rule, perhaps FW would have given him a flat WS 8 instead. Similarly, Corax only has a somewhat "low" WS of 7, but he can impose a -1 to-hit on his opponent, which means the higher WS opponents will hit him at "equal WS" instead, while the equal or lower WS opponents will have more difficulty hitting him. Corax himself will also only hit the opponent (of Primarch WS level) at "equal WS" as well though. He will not overpower his opponent in terms of skill, but he will not let the opponent to overpower him either. Here, too, FW could have just given him a higher WS instead of a fancy rule. People probably would not have objected if he had been a WS 8 Primarch. (Though Corax's special rule is tied to his weaponrs, so perhaps not as inherent.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 FW have a Space wolf legion deal up with the Prospero set, the Wolves upgrade set (shoulders and torsos) transfers, a weapon set (obviously to make up for the lack of heads and Russ himself all for £300 https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Great-Wolfs-Host You still get Ahriham though so he can be the odd one out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrolf the Cunning Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 FW have a Space wolf legion deal up with the Prospero set, the Wolves upgrade set (shoulders and torsos) transfers, a weapon set (obviously to make up for the lack of heads and Russ himself all for £300 https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Great-Wolfs-Host You still get Ahriham though so he can be the odd one out That bundle looks to be amazing value, so tempted although I can ill afford it at the moment Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 People often forget about the weapons of each Primarch. Weapons and armour make a big difference. Horus we know wins most battles because of debilitating effects, but what about other weapons? Using Guilliman as an example; folk often say he'd use his Concussive power fist every turn when they Math-Hammer his prowas, yet unless you can guarantee a turn 2 kill, you're best off using his gladius with rerolls to wound instead (+1 strength and AP2). A 3+ rerollable is miles better than 2+, especially when Concussive is negligible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I agree and the suggested tiers are skewed because they don't reflect weapons and war gear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327118-leman-russ-rules-are-out-link/page/2/#findComment-4541260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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