Leman Russ Rules Are Out! (link)

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed.

 

In fact, saying Angron has poor survivability is another misleading idea. Primarch vs Primarch, it's AP2 or nothing for the most part. All fighters will take away the mundane save. So what we really mean is Angron's invulnerable save is low.

 

Well yes but his attack potential is still massive and can his opponents survive 2-3 rounds with him to take off all his wounds despite his invulnerable save?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

@ Legatus: Horus is actually WS8.  The only ones at WS9 are Angron and Russ so far.

 

 

Ah, my bad. I even checked your list to see who were the WS 9 guys, but then forgot to edit my post after all.

 

Well, there is comparing the rules of the fully armed Primarchs to evaluate their capability in the game, and there is comparing the "skill" of each Primarch sans equipment to see who is inherently a capable combatant. But for the latter I would say that "inherent" special abilities should be included. They do not appear in the raw stat line, but they would be available to the Primarch no matter the weapon setup or encounter. If Guilliman had not been given such a fancy special rule, perhaps FW would have given him a flat WS 8 instead.

 

Similarly, Corax only has a somewhat "low" WS of 7, but he can impose a -1 to-hit on his opponent, which means the higher WS opponents will hit him at "equal WS" instead, while the equal or lower WS opponents will have more difficulty hitting him. Corax himself will also only hit the opponent (of Primarch WS level) at "equal WS" as well though. He will not overpower his opponent in terms of skill, but he will not let the opponent to overpower him either. Here, too, FW could have just given him a higher WS instead of a fancy rule. People probably would not have objected if he had been a WS 8 Primarch.

(Though Corax's special rule is tied to his weaponrs, so perhaps not as inherent.)

 

 

Corax's -1 to hit comes from inherent fighting abilities, not his weapons.

[Ishagu]

Angron has 1 less wound as well, and that does affect his staying power.

 

Remember that the Primarch battles won't occur in a vacuum on the tabletop however. The world Eaters have access to that Apothecary who grants a 4+ FNP. Pair him with Angron, and you'll be ignoring 75% of inflicted wounds which is superior to a 3++

 

Also the various bodyguard units have a big impact on battles.

 

One thing I will add, with the new Sisters of Silence coming to 30k soon, the days of Lorgar's psychic shenanigans are numbered :-D

[SkimaskMohawk]

The entire point of Terminus' breakdown was to see if stat-wise, are the primarchs appropriately represented. Do their stats reflect their portrayal in the books and how can we rank them based off of that? Lorgar; he's a wimp stats-wise which meshes well with the lore, Russ is a wholly appropriate beast stats-wise. Russ is complete trash right now rules wise; you're better off taking a typhon or knight for your LoW

 

Coming in with "but my wargear means Horus always wins" or "Initiative and WS means nothing after perturabo hits them with his hammer" or "those aren't right, Guilliman does really well because of his armour and weapons" misses the entire point.

[Ishagu]

Wouldn't you agree that Guilliman's armour and choice of weapons in fact reflect his exceptional combat strategy and directly relate to his ability? :-P

[SkimaskMohawk]

His physical abilities as described in the fluff? No. The man's a genius to be sure, but he's never exalted for his melee prowess. His statline is average, as is his fluff reputation as a melee combatant.

[Ishagu]

We're heading off topic, but the fluff for Guilliman supports the idea he might be one of the best combatants. Formal training in multiple techniques from a young age, a 3rd party suggesting few of his brothers compare, etc, etc

[GhostMalone]

Guys let's just ease up and wait for inferno and allow this to be left alone.

[Terminus]

Ok I'm out, it's impossible to have a discussion with people who fail to read any of the responses and keep harping on crap specifically mentioned at the start as not being relevant.

 

Have fun with your little Internet row. Deuces.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Terminus, you need to learn to phrase your frequent dissatisfaction a little better, and I think we're done here.

 

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