How has Dante resisted Black Rage for 4000 years..

[Arkangilos]

Enough people resist it to make it, "not unheard of for a Blood Angel to live to be 1000 years." So Dante isn't the only one.

 

It's not so much resisting the Rage, it's just being lucky statistically. Eventually he will either die in battle, or fall to it. It is just a matter of time.

 

Imagine if you have only a five percent chance to fall each battle. You could fall today, you could fall next week, or you could fall 5,000 years for now. It's just luck of the draw.

 

Now he Red Thirst is pure willpower.

[Frater Antodeniel]

The simple fact of speaking about a Blood Angels longevity unveiled several 40k Lore "Black holes" :

 

First of all, in the case of a Blood Angels longevity, is the Gene-seed impact. With several question that remains un-answered :

 

1 => The Blood Angels gene-seed help in the longevity, meaning that others Astartes ages like "humans" ?

 

2 => Does the Blood Angels gene-seed increases the regeneration/reflexes/agility/strenght of a Blood Angels astartes ? (Like vampire, the more older, the more harder to kill ? => It would explain how some Blood Angels are able not only to escape the Rage, but first of all, to survive trough a life of constant warfare.)

 

3 => Are the Blood Angels be able to use Fallen Brothers gene-seed, or are those gene-seeds considered as "tainted" ?

 

4 => How does the Red Thirst impact the Black Rage ? (As the fluff say, those who give more "free reign" to the Thirst are less impacted by the Black Rage.....but if true, what about the Flesh Tearers, who notoriously give free reign to the Thirst but are known to be deeply impacted by the Black Rage....etc...etc.

 

There are lot of other question that remains, but i will stop with this four ones.

[Blindhamster]

We know no marine ages like a human. There are too many examples of marines that are several hundred years old in other chapters. We just happen to know that blood angels are especially long lived.

[Arkangilos]

To answer each number:

 

1) yes, it's already been stated in fluff they do. We've had numerous debates in these forums where we have provided sources that prove space marines age like humans, albeit at a much slower rate (their 300+ are our 60+). Blood Angels do not age as fast.

 

2) no evidence, but it is hardly a "black hole".

 

3) I don't think so. Angels Blade says they don't use the weapons that belonged to fallen, so I doubt they use the geneseed. Again, it isn't a black hole.

 

4) it doesn't, they are different curses.

 

 

Again, I don't think it's that Dante resisted the rage, it's just that it hasn't triggered in him, making him lucky.

He has, however, resisted the Red Thirst.

[Servant of Dante]

Combination of force of will and luck I would say. He's just that awesome :) I think plenty of people have made that point better than I already in this thread.

[Damon Nightman]

http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/new-feat/burden-of-angels-eshort.html

 

This might be relevant or at least provide an example of Dante getting a little thirsty if not raged... "It brings two chapter masters to blows"

[Fenrykus]

4) it doesn't, they are different curses.

Again, I don't think it's that Dante resisted the rage, it's just that it hasn't triggered in him, making him lucky.

He has, however, resisted the Red Thirst.

They may be two different curses, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't inter-connected. I've kind of always thought that those who can resist the temptation of the Red Thirst would be less likely to fall to the Black Rage...or at least, would fall to it later than a Blood Angel who gave in more often. This leaves room for the idea that it's simply a matter of time before a son of Sanguinius falls, but those with the willpower to resist the thirst might be able to stave it off longer than others. Then there's the cases of Lemartes (he's held the Black Rage in check through sheer force of will) and Mephiston (Red Thirst? What the is that?). So it stands to reason that both the Thirst and the Rage can be conquered through willpower, but it requires an extraordinary strength to do so, even for a Blood Angel.

[Arkangilos]

Oh no, I agree that will power can help and that they can interact with each other. But where as the red thirst is always knawing at you, always there (you already have the red thirst), the black rage hits suddenly and randomly. It isn't always there. When I say they are different curses I don't mean they can't interact.

 

What I mean is that resisting the red thirst doesn't mean you can or will resist the black rage, you may be more likely to because of your willpower, but it's your own personal will power, not the other curse, that helps that. However, I believe Brother Lemartes has pointed out in the past that having the Black Rage makes you immune from the Red Thirst, if that's the case that's the interaction I think they'd have.

[Fenrykus]

Sorry, I should have clarified that that's what my emphasis was, that the willpower needed to resist the Red Thirst was what influenced the willpower to resist the Black Rage. I didn't mean to imply that simply because they didn't drink their enemies' blood meant they weren't still subject to falling to the Black Rage.

 

And while yes, the Red Thirst is part of your genetics, I don't think it's always there, at least not in the way you mean. Yes, every Blood Angel has it in the back of their mind, but I thought it was something that built up over a battle, like a bloodlust. Eventually a Blood Angel just can't resist anymore, and he gives in, going full-on Black Rage. But until then, their willpower keeps them safe.

[Arkangilos]

That's not how it works, though.

 

The red thirst is always there, and it's described as a constant flaw they have to over come. Some people lose the willpower to fight it and fall completely to the red thirst, and are locked away in the tower of Amero or are sent into the Death Company with those who fell to the Black Rage.

 

The Black Rage is a genetic memory and triggers before battle for various reasons. The chaplains look between each brother and chant a specific litany. Those who have the black rage then collapse and are sent to join the Death Company.

 

Hence they are separate and you can completely fall to one and not necessarily both.

 

Lemartes still suffers from the Black Rage, his difference is that he knows it's just a dream, so while he sees everything that a member of the Death Company sees, he knows it's not real. His willpower allows that. But that's not the same as resisting the thirst.

[Arkangilos]

Straight from the codex:

 

Red thirst:

"Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood hunger that much be held in abeyance in every waking moment..."(p. 19).

 

Black Rage:

"...sometimes, on the eve of battle, an event or circumstance will trigger this 'race memory' and the battle brothers mind is suddenly wrenched into the distant past..." (p. 19).

 

 

As you can see, one is always there, the other is triggered.

 

 

I am willing to bet Dante will be triggered at the final battle. It will be him as Sanguinius facing down Abbadon as Horus. In fact, his triggering would probably be the most magnificent rendition ever, and the entirety of the Blood Angels will fight like never before seen.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I have a theory that dante is a blank. No psychic link to trigger the gene seed flaw. Even on a subconscious level.

[Lasuria]

I have a theory that dante is a blank. No psychic link to trigger the gene seed flaw. Even on a subconscious level.

 

That's interesting but unlikely no ? BA librarians would not be able to go anywhere near him and IIRC blank people are generally disliked if not hated even by common folks.

 

On another level that would be really weird in a chapter where the primarch was something of a psyker ^^

[Blindhamster]

just read burden of angels...

 

 

Dante and a group of blood angels with him all succumb to the red thirst during a meeting with Tu'Shan and his firedrakes to honour their close relations thanks to Armageddon. Basically a broken blade posesses a BA librarian, daemons appear, the BA and Salamanders fight the Daemons then its hinted one of the BA falls to the black rage and butchers a load of daemons, Dante and the BA go to deal with their own bretheren whilst the Salamanders deal with the remaining Daemons. Once the fighting is over Dante and the remaining BA are revealed to be drinking blood and turn on the Salamanders too after Dante warns them off repeatedly, Tu'Shan manages to pull Dante back from the edge and then Dante pulls the rest back, Tu'Shan then says Dante never need explain himself and that they are true brothers

 

[Damon Nightman]

We suck again! I'm just kidding!

 

Thank you very much Blindhamster!

[Blindhamster]

it was not a good read frankly.

[Damon Nightman]

So to answer the op, the reason Dante has resisted is due to the Salamanders :P

 

It's stories like these that really make me wonder how the hell we have survived as a chapter for so long....

[tkni]

There's a neat bit in one of the Shield of Baal books that touches on the relationship between the two:

 

 

He heard the red hum rise behind his thoughts. It was always this way when the Chapter went to war; the black tide of emotions which every warrior fought to control became stronger and stronger as the vibrations of Thunderhawk engines shook their bones and the heat of weapons-fire washed over them.

 

Between battles, in the cold stretch of the void or on Baal’s blistered sands, the thirst for battle could be ignored, sublimated into more noble pursuits. Karlaen knew many battle-brothers who were as adept with a sculptor’s chisel or a painter’s brush as they were with bolter and blade. But here, now, on the sharp edge, the rage was given full flower. And if they were not careful, it could sweep them under and into damnation.

 

So I guess the big question is, what is Dante's hobby?

[Fenrykus]

Straight from the codex:

 

Red thirst:

"Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood hunger that much be held in abeyance in every waking moment..."(p. 19).

 

Black Rage:

"...sometimes, on the eve of battle, an event or circumstance will trigger this 'race memory' and the battle brothers mind is suddenly wrenched into the distant past..." (p. 19).

 

 

As you can see, one is always there, the other is triggered.

 

 

I am willing to bet Dante will be triggered at the final battle. It will be him as Sanguinius facing down Abbadon as Horus. In fact, his triggering would probably be the most magnificent rendition ever, and the entirety of the Blood Angels will fight like never before seen.

 

I stand corrected.

[appiah4]

just read burden of angels...

 

 

Dante and a group of blood angels with him all succumb to the red thirst during a meeting with Tu'Shan and his firedrakes to honour their close relations thanks to Armageddon. Basically a broken blade posesses a BA librarian, daemons appear, the BA and Salamanders fight the Daemons then its hinted one of the BA falls to the black rage and butchers a load of daemons, Dante and the BA go to deal with their own bretheren whilst the Salamanders deal with the remaining Daemons. Once the fighting is over Dante and the remaining BA are revealed to be drinking blood and turn on the Salamanders too after Dante warns them off repeatedly, Tu'Shan manages to pull Dante back from the edge and then Dante pulls the rest back, Tu'Shan then says Dante never need explain himself and that they are true brothers

 

40k fiction really needs an EU style reset rendering everything except HH moot. Eisenhorn would be our Thrawnbbut overall it would be for the best..

There's a neat bit in one of the Shield of Baal books that touches on the relationship between the two:

 

 

He heard the red hum rise behind his thoughts. It was always this way when the Chapter went to war; the black tide of emotions which every warrior fought to control became stronger and stronger as the vibrations of Thunderhawk engines shook their bones and the heat of weapons-fire washed over them.

 

Between battles, in the cold stretch of the void or on Baal’s blistered sands, the thirst for battle could be ignored, sublimated into more noble pursuits. Karlaen knew many battle-brothers who were as adept with a sculptor’s chisel or a painter’s brush as they were with bolter and blade. But here, now, on the sharp edge, the rage was given full flower. And if they were not careful, it could sweep them under and into damnation.

So I guess the big question is, what is Dante's hobby?

He paints miniatures..

[Xenith]

There's a neat bit in one of the Shield of Baal books that touches on the relationship between the two:

 

 

He heard the red hum rise behind his thoughts. It was always this way when the Chapter went to war; the black tide of emotions which every warrior fought to control became stronger and stronger as the vibrations of Thunderhawk engines shook their bones and the heat of weapons-fire washed over them.

 

Between battles, in the cold stretch of the void or on Baal’s blistered sands, the thirst for battle could be ignored, sublimated into more noble pursuits. Karlaen knew many battle-brothers who were as adept with a sculptor’s chisel or a painter’s brush as they were with bolter and blade. But here, now, on the sharp edge, the rage was given full flower. And if they were not careful, it could sweep them under and into damnation.

So I guess the big question is, what is Dante's hobby?

Heh, I guess this makes the BA even more like eldar? Focus on one path to prevent straying into excess?

 

Also read burden of angels. I guess it's canon. Undecided on it, though.

[Indefragable]

it was not a good read frankly.

 

This needs to be quoted anytime there's ever a disagreement about anything 40k fluffwise, ever. 

 

If the writing quality was even slightly better and the one-note Saturday-morning-cartooniness of so many aspects of 40k was removed, than so many arguments would cease to exist. 

 

If the Star Wars Holiday Special can be Stalin'ed from history for being that bad quality, so can some of these anecdotes. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Seems a bit half assed

[Biscuittzz]

No one knows. My personal idea is that marines who fall to the rage are the ones whos geneseed line has cone from danguinius after he was killed, while the ones who dont fall are from marines who had theirs implanted while he was alive. In effect, the ones who come from his dead flesh get a full psychic dose of the killing while the ones descended from marines at the time get a slightly watered down version of its effects. Thus a sufficiently strongwilled marine with the right geneline can resist but if he had the wrong geneline he would be doomed no matter what.

 

Emm how would this work though? Every Blood Angel alive at present has acquired Sanguinius' geneseed after his death, including Dante. So that means that all of them will suffer.

 

The ones who were implanted before his death also suffered as far as I remember. Upon his death didn't the psychic backlash propagate the Black Rage in the marines defending the Imperial Palace on Terra? Or was that just the Red Thirst?

 

Anyways it'l be expanded upon as the HH series gets to the walls of the palace and his death eventually.

[Leonaides]

The marines who were alive during the siege who lived through sanguinius' death felt it certainly, but they still had progenoid glands in them. Those particular genetic lines are the only ones who are not directly cultured from the already dead flesh of the primarch after he had just been killed in the most traumatic way possible. Why do some, but not all, marines imagine that they are sanguinius fighting during the heresy when they fall to the black rage? Because they have a direct genetic memory of being him at that time. Other marines who simply imagine that they are back in the heresy ate presumably recalling their genetic heritage at the time.