[HH1.0] Legio Custodes Tactica

[TompiQ]

What exactly is cool in game where he obliterated his opponent and lost 4 guys in return? Does this seems like a fun game to you? Since my definition of fun game is not removing my models of the table while doing literally nothing in return.

 

First of all you have no idea of the level of fun in the game. And besides that you also have no idea of how fit the enemy force was to handle a custodes army to begin with. Just look at the DG army list Rabidbunneh posted - it has absolutely nothing except a lascannon squad to handle 2+ saves at range, at 3k points none the less. He didn't provide more than a couple of melee threats either. I'm not saying custodes aren't a top tier heresy army, but that game would have looked similar if it had been DG versus pride of the legion as well. A great mistake was trying to kill the Tankibune first round too, when he could've poured firepower into way more vulnerable units instead. The reason this game was so skewed was due to the DG player.

 

 

Custodes - Training wheels for your journey into Horus Heresy...

 

I strongly disagree. Imagine if the enemy force had had a typhon and plasma squads instead of autocannon squads? Custodes are without a doubt strong, but losing a single model equals losing 4-6 marines a lot of the time. They play as an even more concentrated Pride of the Legion list, and just like armies using that RoW you will have hard counters as well as lists that cannot contend with the amount of 2+ saves you present.

[Fallen11]

^{Enemy has typhoon, tankibune is first  in line and simply tanks wounds on 3++ rerolable squad would get, no one gets hurt,move along. Also imagine custodes player instead of having bunch of on foot custodes had 3man squads in transports and some jetbikes. Jetbikes blow up Typhoon, with d3 lasers each. transports kill those nice expensive plasma squads while at same time can't be hurt in return...it goes both ways...}

[TompiQ]

^{Enemy has typhoon, tankibune is first  in line and simply tanks wounds on 3++ rerolable squad would get, no one gets hurt,move along. Also imagine custodes player instead of having bunch of on foot custodes had 3man squads in transports and some jetbikes. Jetbikes blow up Typhoon, with d3 lasers each. transports kill those nice expensive plasma squads while at same time can't be hurt in return...it goes both ways...}

 

The tankibune can tank for a single unit only, and it isn't very different from having say Horus stand in front of a Justaerin squad with a Primus in it, you simply avoid or flank such units. And of course it goes both ways when it comes to list tailoring, what I'm saying is that the Death Guard list was one of the worst he could have fielded when it comes to fighting custodes or PotL and thus he was at a major disadvantage from the start. It's not so much that the Custodes are OP as it is the DG having no effective method of fighting them.

 

Imagine if the same Custodes list faced a tainted flesh/cult horde militia list with 300 fearless rending cultists. It'd just get bogged down by more bodies than it could handle and lose, because the list lacks the tools required to fight such a force. Meanwhile the DG list would probably do quite well due to the amount of bolter and autocannon shots it can put into those same hordes.

[Baluc]

That is a terrible example of a balancing factor tainted flesh/cult horde is universally accepted as breaking the mechanics of the game.

 

I'll reserve my judgement on Custodes until the units are available. But its shocking how 5 deathsworn are 10 points more than 3 custodes.

 

Legion specifics being garbage generally has a lot to do with legions struggling outside of legion warfare. It only gets compounded by FW refusing to accept when they write up a dud and then pricing everything else in relation to other dud units.

[Charlo]

 

I'll reserve my judgement on Custodes until the units are available. But its shocking how 5 deathsworn are 10 points more than 3 custodes.

 

 

Deathsworn are still artificer, power axe and attack even if they are killed, have defensive grenades, counter attack and such. They're pretty dang strong.

[Fallen11]

Well, friend of mine played 6 renegade knights + 100 rending zealot + cultists + demolisher vs custodes. He lost, in the end only 23 cultists were still alive. And tankibune died to first stomp, before doing anything. Despite that, custodes player stil won...so there is that. He had little problem killing around 80cultists who had rend, zealot and 3 attacks each on charge...he had like 15 custodes altogether, he wasnt even prepared to face army he faced. And when I saw what custodes was against, I thought, yea he doesn't stand chance. Boy was I wrong...

[TompiQ]

Well, friend of mine played 6 renegade knights + 100 rending zealot + cultists + demolisher vs custodes. He lost, in the end only 23 cultists were still alive. And tankibune died to first stomp, before doing anything. Despite that, custodes player stil won...so there is that. He had little problem killing around 80cultists who had rend, zealot and 3 attacks each on charge...he had like 15 custodes altogether, he wasnt even prepared to face army he faced. And when I saw what custodes was against, I thought, yea he doesn't stand chance. Boy was I wrong...

 

That is a terrible example of a balancing factor tainted flesh/cult horde is universally accepted as breaking the mechanics of the game.

 

I'll reserve my judgement on Custodes until the units are available. But its shocking how 5 deathsworn are 10 points more than 3 custodes.

 

Legion specifics being garbage generally has a lot to do with legions struggling outside of legion warfare. It only gets compounded by FW refusing to accept when they write up a dud and then pricing everything else in relation to other dud units.

 

It's an extreme example but it proves my point, a tainted horde is on the other side of the quantity vs quality spectrum compared to Custodes, and the DG list is obviously stronger versus the former. You could easily build a DG list that's better vs the latter, but that wasn't the case in the battle report and that's my point.

 

And deathsworn are way too expensive for what they do, you're better served with comparing to units that are actually competitively priced. 

 

Well, friend of mine played 6 renegade knights + 100 rending zealot + cultists + demolisher vs custodes. He lost, in the end only 23 cultists were still alive. And tankibune died to first stomp, before doing anything. Despite that, custodes player stil won...so there is that. He had little problem killing around 80cultists who had rend, zealot and 3 attacks each on charge...he had like 15 custodes altogether, he wasnt even prepared to face army he faced. And when I saw what custodes was against, I thought, yea he doesn't stand chance. Boy was I wrong...

 

Alright, and what was the Custodes list? If you by 15 custodes mean the entire custodian force then that was an allied detachment to another force and I doubt the custodians carried the day.

[Jarkaira]

Custodes seem to work for people immigrating from competitive 40k scene and can use them as a crutch until they realise they are having hard time getting a match organized and start to play with real legions. Also Custodes are good for those little hitlers who think they are entitled to win each game they participate into.

 

Other than that I can't see a valid reason for people to play with Custodes after they take a look on their rules and point prices. I'd rather have real game instead of playing a pseudogame with Custodes although I just might collect them as they look neat and offer a great painting scheme.

 

This is just a beginning of adding cheese of the month releases into 30k too except that in 30k release schedule it is actually going to be a cheese of the year edition. The moment our gaming club's official that guy decided to buy Custodes army I knew without looking into the rules that these will be overpowered cheese edition i stead of fluffy elite army and after going through the rules and doing some mathhammer I made a promise to myself to never use Custodes in a game. It just isn't a game anymore when the other participant hasn't got any chances no matter how he builds his list. It is just bullying in pick up games and tourneys.

[Fallen11]

Speaking from head

2 tanks

3 coronus with 2x3 guys inside, tankibune went with 1 squad, valdor went with 4 elite ones

2x3 bikes with lasers

 

That's it I think...something like that more or less

 

If you were vs 300 tainted horde, just imagine what few of those torrent flamers would do.

[Black Cohort]

I think the key to killing Custodes is to focus on one squad until it is dead since custodes are 100% effective until their last wound is gone.  I wouldn't be shocked if all custodes are characters gets changed to chosen warrior at some point to get rid of the wound tricks.

[Charlo]

I think the key to killing Custodes is to focus on one squad until it is dead since custodes are 100% effective until their last wound is gone.  I wouldn't be shocked if all custodes are characters gets changed to chosen warrior at some point to get rid of the wound tricks.

 

Personally I think that is part of what makes them who they are. It's also incredibly fluffy, every Custode was a unique creation, never to be repeated by the Emperor.

[IronDrake28]

Custodes seem to work for people immigrating from competitive 40k scene and can use them as a crutch until they realise they are having hard time getting a match organized and start to play with real legions. Also Custodes are good for those little hitlers who think they are entitled to win each game they participate into.

 

Other than that I can't see a valid reason for people to play with Custodes after they take a look on their rules and point prices. I'd rather have real game instead of playing a pseudogame with Custodes although I just might collect them as they look neat and offer a great painting scheme.

 

This is just a beginning of adding cheese of the month releases into 30k too except that in 30k release schedule it is actually going to be a cheese of the year edition. The moment our gaming club's official that guy decided to buy Custodes army I knew without looking into the rules that these will be overpowered cheese edition i stead of fluffy elite army and after going through the rules and doing some mathhammer I made a promise to myself to never use Custodes in a game. It just isn't a game anymore when the other participant hasn't got any chances no matter how he builds his list. It is just bullying in pick up games and tourneys.

Wow, thanks. Talk about generalising... I guess I'll go have fun being a 'little hitler' elsewhere. :/

 

God knows how you've came to that opinion so quickly.

Edited February 23, 2017 by IronDrake28

[foto69man]

As the proud owner of an 1850pt Tainted flesh/cult horde army...I've lost so many lil dudes before they make it to combat, that its not always that one sided in my favor.  I may catch a Custodes player off-guard the first time, but their shooting scares me a bit (I won Cult, Night Lords, and Custodes).

I also don't think Custodes are insta-win button mode.  Some good stuff in their army, but not instant top of the dogpile.  I'd like to see a bunch of batreps with army lists and thoughts before casting judgement

[Jarkaira]

^^ I came to that conclusion simply by looking at their rules and doing some mathhammer. Everything they have is better than anything else in legions, SA or mechanicum lists and their slightly elevated price doesn't justify their strengths. Their mechanics simply suit better 40K power level.

 

I just simply don't see how people thinking about fielding Custodes don't see the fact that they are playing on a whole different level than their legion counterparts.

 

They would have been a great addition into current armies if they would have been balanced but currently they are just simply broken and I can't justify any reason to field them against anyone playing other than Custodes army and it would become a bit boring playing against Custodes only if there is any gaming aspect going on.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jarkaira

[Jarkaira]

Just one examply which isn't in balance. I'll take this one as I most recently did mathhammer with this one. Their dread has better initiative, weapon skill, attacks, side armor and rear armor. It also has MtC and counter-attack. All this for 25pts extra vs. Contemptor. Also it can do strength D attacks plus D3 lascannon shots. How is this balanced?

 

Rules are fluffy but they don't cost enough for it to be on same level as legion counterpart.

 

The whole Inferno is epitome of bad design and editing.

[IronDrake28]

^^ I came to that conclusion simply by looking at their rules and doing some mathhammer. Everything they have is better than anything else in legions, SA or mechanicum lists and their slightly elevated price doesn't justify their strengths. Their mechanics simply suit better 40K power level.

 

I just simply don't see how people thinking about fielding Custodes don't see the fact that they are playing on a whole different level than their legion counterparts.

 

They would have been a great addition into current armies if they would have been balanced but currently they are just simply broken and I can't justify any reason to field them against anyone playing other than Custodes army and it would become a bit boring playing against Custodes only if there is any gaming aspect going on.

I do see your point. But going from "This army is a bit OP" to "Everyone who plays this army is akin the world's most horrific dictator, and there's no possible way to play against them and have fun" is a tad over the top, no?

 

Like, seriously, you can have fun playing with whatever army, it's about having a conversation with your opponent. Or if you know the guy and you're friends...Well you're always going to have fun anyway.

 

Also, people DO know that playing Custodes means they have an advantage. (In some cases.) We sure as hell are still going to play them, because they're the freaking Legio Custodes, badasser than most badasses.

[Jarkaira]

If everyone would notice they are having advantage against their opponent it might work well. The main reason I started playing 30k was that 40k has a lot of broken combos and most of the people just take the most broken ones and 'play a game' with them although they would have another choice too. I do hope that it won't happen in 30k too and I still think it would have been better if Custodes would be priced according to their powerlevel instead of hoping people will adjust their manners when they play with Custodes as it won't be guarenteed on every single individual. It is like selling guns to people and saying everyone is smart enough to not shoot others so there won't be any problems.

 

I do love building lists that work well and I always take a note who am I against and build my lists and play according to that. I have few opponents against whom I can unleash my full potential as I know that they will be as 'gamey twats' as I when we have a match. When I have an opponent who is more into narrative play I adjust my style to suit his expectations and don't bring a list which I have mathhammered for hours and deploy and play in a way which takes all out of that list.

 

Both can make a satisfying game for me and I wouldn't want to do just one or the other way.

 

Now if I would take Custodes it just simply can't become anything else than Custodes massacring everything while not dying at all as they don't follow the same pricing as legions, SA or mechanicus.

 

Edit:

I do regret adding Hitler to this discussion as it seems to have quite a different meaning due cultural differencies as addressing someone as little Hitler in here means just that they are being entitled whineys without all the load of nazism etc.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jarkaira

[depthcharge12]

I think that Custodes were intended to be curtailed by use as allies...a full list of them is a bit nutty. It's sort of like taking a full knight list against marines...totally legal, but not really intended for balance. Most 30k leagues outright ban knight lists for purposes of balance.

 

However, when Knights and Custodes are used as a force multiplier and as allies, they make much more sense, and are more balanced. Take for example how good the elites slot contemptor is for its point value, I think this is justified because the intention was it would be contending for one elites slot in an allies list, competing with Hetaron guards, terminators, and the like.

 

I could be completely off, but like the Knights, the Custardes seem to be an ally friendly choice, not a main army. 

[Jarkaira]

^ I am thinking about the same. Also as SoS is included in the same army list they would compete against them too and the currently forming meta might need some SoS to counter Thousand Sons thus competiting with Custodes.

 

I wan't to see how things go before banhammering Custodes as a main force from tournaments although I am quite close on coming to that conclusion.

[Baluc]

I definitely foresee tournaments and events banning Talons as a main detachment. Most events limit allied detachment points as well. But to be clear, nothing costs enough. Inferno has been an unmitigated disaster for the HH community at large. Poorly edited, poorly designed, with armies ending up in wildly different places. The Cult rules on Thousand Sons on top of masterly levels on units was a mistake, "free" rules on top of playing a whole phase more than the opponent was too much.

 

Anyway, in a narrative sense they are probably fine. You can balance it 1.5/2:1 points against the custodes in a narrative game, but in terms of match play I think they are best with those restrictions I have already mentioned.

[Rabidbunneh]

Well, it seems i've kicked off quite a debate.  My only issue is the ability to choose a Warlord trait. The Tribune upgrade for +25 points is silly, with his stat line and abilities i'd happily pay 100 points just for Eternal Warrior and fearless, 25 is a must take. 

 

edit: On the topic of the type of people buying them, I got 5 from a bits site when Prospero launched and liked the kit to get 50 within a month of the first 5. I really like the models, to say only "that guy" will play the list is a bit of a disservice as I personally brought them back when the rules in White Dwarf were considered fairly sub par. I got them as I liked the idea of a small elite army. If its too much, I just won't play them, it'll probably see me stop playing Heresy altogether if people decide to not play against them.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Rabidbunneh

[Runefyre]

I'm gonna run Valdor just because lmao. That solves some balance issues.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Custodes seem to work for people immigrating from competitive 40k scene and can use them as a crutch until they realise they are having hard time getting a match organized and start to play with real legions. Also Custodes are good for those little hitlers who think they are entitled to win each game they participate into.

 

Other than that I can't see a valid reason for people to play with Custodes after they take a look on their rules and point prices. I'd rather have real game instead of playing a pseudogame with Custodes although I just might collect them as they look neat and offer a great painting scheme.

 

This is just a beginning of adding cheese of the month releases into 30k too except that in 30k release schedule it is actually going to be a cheese of the year edition. The moment our gaming club's official that guy decided to buy Custodes army I knew without looking into the rules that these will be overpowered cheese edition i stead of fluffy elite army and after going through the rules and doing some mathhammer I made a promise to myself to never use Custodes in a game. It just isn't a game anymore when the other participant hasn't got any chances no matter how he builds his list. It is just bullying in pick up games and tourneys.

OR, as some of you simply don't seem to understand... Some people actually enjoy those models! Like me I LOVE all Custodes models! And now you're telling me I'm an all OP player who needs and wants to win every game like a hitler? I'm sorry that I like my army the way I do, but telling someone that he can't field his army simply for what they are is veeeery weird and kinda mean don't you think?

 

Maybe the problem isn't the competitive gamers going from 40k to 30k, maybe the naysayers and doomspeakers immigrating from 40k to 30k are the problem...

Edited February 23, 2017 by AlphariusOmegon108

[Jarkaira]

^^ It is just simply mean from FW to release that kind of rules for Custodes as it will do most damage against those who love the models and wan't to play with them.

 

There simply is no room for a faction whose basic troops cost 240pts and can soak up 56.7 plasma shots before a single model has been removed if they pass all their look out sir rolls.

 

Why do you expect someone to play against you if it is always auto win for you no matter what you are up against (except other Custodes)?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Jarkaira

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Starting to look like the old warseer forum here, not a good sign... Edited February 23, 2017 by AlphariusOmegon108