What if the WS got involved at Prospero?

[helterskelter]

 

 

Russ wouldn't walk out of a fight with jaghatai.

Mainly going on what mortarion can take and give out + how fast jaghatai is with a sword, even if valdor got involved there'd be a right royal mess and the imperium would be in a bigger mess than it already is.

And as for the legion warfare, wolves can only snap their jaws at eagles

That is complete conjecture and very biased. When will people realise that WS's get special treatment and the Wolves don't. We have a plethora of moments were WS's are shown to be awesome fighers (and rightly so), but SW's? nope. Just poor mooks getting murdered by warlocks or AL and getting saved by DAs. Even Russ has never had a definitive showcase of his abilities.

 

But I guess yeah, if you take BL's biased fluff at face value, the WS's will absolutely wreck the Wolves.

 

sorry if I'm being overly negative, I'm having a bad day.

Yeah it is conjecture I'll give you that, some of it is based off actual styles of warfare though, and traditionally the force with the greater mobility wins/comes out a bit better in most circumstances, not all I give you that.

And I'm not biased in anyway against wolves either I quite enjoy their fluff so I'm not picking on them don't worry.

 

Also I nearly got killed by a tractor today so I feel you on the bad day part too

[Baluc]

 

 

Russ wouldn't walk out of a fight with jaghatai.

Mainly going on what mortarion can take and give out + how fast jaghatai is with a sword, even if valdor got involved there'd be a right royal mess and the imperium would be in a bigger mess than it already is.

And as for the legion warfare, wolves can only snap their jaws at eagles

That is complete conjecture and very biased. When will people realise that WS's get special treatment and the Wolves don't. We have a plethora of moments were WS's are shown to be awesome fighers (and rightly so), but SW's? nope. Just poor mooks getting murdered by warlocks or AL and getting saved by DAs. Even Russ has never had a definitive showcase of his abilities.

 

But I guess yeah, if you take BL's biased fluff at face value, the WS's will absolutely wreck the Wolves.

 

sorry if I'm being overly negative, I'm having a bad day.

Yeah it is conjecture I'll give you that, some of it is based off actual styles of warfare though, and traditionally the force with the greater mobility wins/comes out a bit better in most circumstances, not all I give you that.

And I'm not biased in anyway against wolves either I quite enjoy their fluff so I'm not picking on them don't worry.

 

Also I nearly got killed by a tractor today so I feel you on the bad day part too

 

 

The Scars have a planet to protect, a great deal of their tactical mobility is lost. Its the school of fish theory, you stay close in formation and punch through to the target, once the wolves are deployed, the wolves fleet is between them and the planet. Theoretically it would be almost impossible to keep a compliance fleet from deploying planet side, just to make it as dangerous as possible, Astartes fleets are designed to just that.

 

That being said the Wolves are now cannon horrible at naval warfare so there is that. 

[Runefyre]

That being said the Wolves are now cannon horrible at naval warfare so there is that.

So much for being vikings in space lol (FW used that phrase not me).

 

Personally (and it is more conjecture and imposing what I think Russ should be like) I think that Russ wouldn't be stupid enough to attempt to fight two full legions plus a planet's worth of defense systems. Demi-god super-soldiers should surely possess at least as much tactical prowess as a USMC cadet?

 

Personally I like the idea of the brutal drop pod based SW's, the fast vanguard WS's, and the guiding presence of the Tsons as a brutal force for Horus to reckon with.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

I personally don't think that Russ is stupid or incompetent so I have to ask, if Russ withdrew and requested reinforcements from Horus and was refuse, would he not have sent a message to Terra and awaited confirmation as to what current orders are? Russ doesn't seem the type to really want to force a fight with yet another brother let alone a fight he would have most likely not seen as being winnable, without specific orders from the Emperor to engage the Khan in addition to Magnus.

 

Then there is the issue that Magnus was resigned to his fate, he might have tried to convince the WS to withdraw so that he could be punished (which I assume would have been refused by the WS do to the vision), or he might have flown in person to the Khan's command ship so that mediation between the three Primarchs could be done rather than arming the planets defense for war. Magnus knew he had done something very wrong and would not be eager to engage the SW even with the support of the WS.

[Terminus]

They would have had some tea, a polite and productive discussion, and Magnus would have gone to Terra to help salvage the Webway Project.

[Plaguecaster]

Russ and the wolves would be too stubborn and arrogant to back down if the scars showed up taking the sons sides, they would be viewed in the same regard as the traitor sons especially since Kharm and his sons refused to obey the Nikea edict. From a little personal opinion as well as what was implied in the scar books the Khan would be most likely the one to defeat possibly even kill Russ especially when backed up by Magnus.

[Brother Pheidias]

Russ and the wolves would be too stubborn and arrogant to back down if the scars showed up taking the sons sides, they would be viewed in the same regard as the traitor sons especially since Kharm and his sons refused to obey the Nikea edict. From a little personal opinion as well as what was implied in the scar books Khârn would be most likely the one to defeat possibly even kill Russ especially when backed up by Magnus.

I think you mean "The Khan", not "Khârn". There's a fairly big difference :D

 

On topic, I think it would have changed the tides somewhat, but I fear the end result would have been the Scars being forced onto the losing side, and eventually either going their own way entirely, or siding with Horus.

 

But I really liked a point someone made somewhere about how it's really a classical greek tragedy unfolding at Prospero, with everyone doing the wrong things for all the right reasons, and creating their own demise in the process. Even if the Scars had intervened, I think this sort of outcome would be nearly inevitable anyhow.

[b1soul]

Based on his personality, Magnus may have asked the Khan to leave him to his fate,i.e. sell the Khan on why he and legion deserve to perish

 

This would take us back to the original timeline pretty much

 

...but for the sake of an interesting discussion, my scenario assumes that the Khan sells Magnus on why he and his legion do not deserve to be decimated or exterminated by Russ' barbaric horde

[adreal]

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

[b1soul]

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

Very interesting thought

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

Very interesting thought

 

 

 

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

Very interesting thought

 

 

That IS very interesting.

I can see it now: The Wolves and Alpha Legion assault Prospero. The sheer size of the Alpha Legion fleet alarms the defenders. After a savage battle in the city, the White Scars and Thousand Sons escape the planet.

The White Scars, Thousand Sons and Rout all suffer devastating losses, while the AL allowed the Rout to take the brunt of the attack. 

 

As Russ turns to confront the AL for their actions, word of the Dropsite Massacre reaches the Wolf King. Alpharius, about his flagship, reads off the list of traitorous Legions. "Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Word Bearers...and the Alpha Legion."

As the comprehension of what just happened hits Russ, the AL ships open fire on the battered ships of the VI. Russ and the survivors are now stranded on dying Prospero as the AL depart the system.

[adreal]

 

 

 

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

Very interesting thought

 

If the scars went to prospero i think the alpha legion would have sided with the wolves, they would just 'happen' to arrive in the system

Very interesting thought

That IS very interesting.

I can see it now: The Wolves and Alpha Legion assault Prospero. The sheer size of the Alpha Legion fleet alarms the defenders. After a savage battle in the city, the White Scars and Thousand Sons escape the planet.

The White Scars, Thousand Sons and Rout all suffer devastating losses, while the AL allowed the Rout to take the brunt of the attack.

 

As Russ turns to confront the AL for their actions, word of the Dropsite Massacre reaches the Wolf King. Alpharius, about his flagship, reads off the list of traitorous Legions. "Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Word Bearers...and the Alpha Legion."

As the comprehension of what just happened hits Russ, the AL ships open fire on the battered ships of the VI. Russ and the survivors are now stranded on dying Prospero as the AL depart the system.

Pretty much how it would play out, depending on what primarch is where, though in scars the AL dont have much issue taking on the wolves, so even if it was omegon it wouldn't change much

[b1soul]

As the comprehension of what just happened hits Russ, the AL ships open fire on the battered ships of the VI. Russ and the survivors are now stranded on dying Prospero as the AL depart the system.

Yes, but wouldn't the AL simply exterminate the remaining SW on Prospero?

 

Also, if the AL hang back too much, alone the SW risk getting mauled at relatively low cost to the WS and TSons

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

As the comprehension of what just happened hits Russ, the AL ships open fire on the battered ships of the VI. Russ and the survivors are now stranded on dying Prospero as the AL depart the system.

Yes, but wouldn't the AL simply exterminate the remaining SW on Prospero?

 

Also, if the AL hang back too much, alone the SW risk getting mauled at relatively low cost to the WS and TSons

 

Well I dont see them leaving the Wolves in the middle of the fight alone, just repeatedly letting the Wolves be the speartip.

 

Maybe, or maybe the AL left the Wolves on Prosperoto make sure that any of them that get off the planet would gun for the traitors in a hurricane of vengeance so bloody Quentin Tarantino would shudder

 

#ALgonnatrollSon

 

I dont wanna believe in a setting where the AL dont troll enemies and allies alike

[Hfran Morkai]

Russ and the wolves would be too stubborn and arrogant to back down if the scars showed up taking the sons sides, they would be viewed in the same regard as the traitor sons especially since Kharm and his sons refused to obey the Nikea edict. From a little personal opinion as well as what was implied in the scar books Khârn would be most likely the one to defeat possibly even kill Russ especially when backed up by Magnus.

The Leman Russ Primarch book says differently. ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Russ and the wolves would be too stubborn and arrogant to back down if the scars showed up taking the sons sides, they would be viewed in the same regard as the traitor sons especially since Kharm and his sons refused to obey the Nikea edict. From a little personal opinion as well as what was implied in the scar books Khârn would be most likely the one to defeat possibly even kill Russ especially when backed up by Magnus.

The Leman Russ Primarch book says differently.

Please dont tease like that.

PM me the details if you arent comfortable posting it using spoiler tags

[Hrolf the Cunning]

In answer to the original question, I think the only significant change to the setting would be that there would be one less legion defending terra during the siege...

[Hfran Morkai]

Please dont tease like that.

PM me the details if you arent comfortable posting it using spoiler tags

 

Basically when the Fenrisian fleet arrives at the Dulan home world the Lion is already there.

 

The VIth proceed to "assist" the Dark Angels in the battle by engaging the enemy. Only they blow up an enemy vessel that had 10 squads of Angels on board after ignoring hails from the Dark Angel fleet (which is pretty arrogant). Dark Angels vessels start firing on the ship that killed their brothers.

 

Almost ends up in a Legion vs Legion fight until Russ orders his men to stand down, threatening to break them if they disobey.

 

Russ isn't too stubborn to pick a fight he can't win.

 

 

Sorry it's not as juicy as you're probably hoping for, I should have snipped the quote but my phone is terrible for that.

[Plaguecaster]

Russ and the wolves would be too stubborn and arrogant to back down if the scars showed up taking the sons sides, they would be viewed in the same regard as the traitor sons especially since Kharm and his sons refused to obey the Nikea edict. From a little personal opinion as well as what was implied in the scar books Khârn would be most likely the one to defeat possibly even kill Russ especially when backed up by Magnus.

The Leman Russ Primarch book says differently.

Well I apologise haven't read that yet and was only going by what I have read as a few other books where the wolves are not the main protagonist show them as such.

[b1soul]

This would be actually be a great scenario for the AL to show off their conventional warfare capability

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Please dont tease like that.

PM me the details if you arent comfortable posting it using spoiler tags

 

Basically when the Fenrisian fleet arrives at the Dulan home world the Lion is already there.

 

The VIth proceed to "assist" the Dark Angels in the battle by engaging the enemy. Only they blow up an enemy vessel that had 10 squads of Angels on board after ignoring hails from the Dark Angel fleet (which is pretty arrogant). Dark Angels vessels start firing on the ship that killed their brothers.

 

Almost ends up in a Legion vs Legion fight until Russ orders his men to stand down, threatening to break them if they disobey.

 

Russ isn't too stubborn to pick a fight he can't win.

 

 

Sorry it's not as juicy as you're probably hoping for, I should have snipped the quote but my phone is terrible for that.

 

Um, what?

 

 

So not only does that book have the Wolves act like complete morons, it further undermines the whole 'Astartes fighting Astartes is anathema' theme of the GC era?

 

 

Why is BL apparently unable to give the Wolves a positive portrayal?

[bluntblade]

As a Space Wolves fan, I couldn't imagine a better storyline than a good-cop bad-cop movie with Russ playing the impetuous insctinctive, Magnus being the smart charismatic guy and if you need to put the Khan in he can be the one shouting to keep them in check.

And now I'm picturing Ice Cube in his 21/2 Jump Street role as Jaghatai Khan.

 

Given what I've seen of Wraight writing both Wolves and Scars, I think whichever way the fight went, it wouldn't be a mere curb-stomp.

[Hfran Morkai]

Um, what?

 

 

So not only does that book have the Wolves act like complete morons, it further undermines the whole 'Astartes fighting Astartes is anathema' theme of the GC era?

 

 

Why is BL apparently unable to give the Wolves a positive portrayal?

 

I'm only half way through the book. Admittedly the Wolves should have answered said hails (especially as it all made sense why the Dark Angels were hanging back and not engaging that particular vessel after the mention of the loss of the Dark Angels).

 

Pretty sure the Dark Angels launched two volleys and left it at that, I think it was more warning shots than attempting to destroy the Wolves but it is mentioned that the Angels wanted vengeance for their loss.

 

The Wolves are prideful and frustrated the Angels got there first, as if they can't fulfill the role of destroyers what use is there for them in the Imperium?

 

 

[b1soul]

Astartes fighting Astartes is anathema' theme of the GC era?

Pre Heresy...Astartes vs. Astartes or any form of Imperial vs. Imperial conflict is anathema

 

It happens rarely and is usually covered up

 

Here...

 

 

it appears the DA just fired some shots...

 

The Wolves blew up a ship containing DA...more of collateral damage

 

[Leif Bearclaw]

'Rarely', yet it keeps cropping up, here in a really asinine, idiotic way. Granted, we do see exceptional events written about more, which can give them a greater prominence than their frequency deserves. However, I still find is frustrating that they continue to undermine what was one of the most interesting aspects of the pre-Heresy Astartes, their incomprehension and revulsion at the very idea of inter-Astartes conflict. Things like this just make Loken's reluctance and hesitation in killing the possessed Jubal in Horus Rising seem idiotic. He's gone from a representation of a more enlightened, innocent age to a naive chump.