Dantay VI Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 A loyalist secured and controlled mars would spell all kinds of dodo for traitors, i have no doubts about that. I'm trying to figure out what the khagan would have done if he arrived during the battle for prospero, with both the thousand sons and the rout deployed and engaged in combat. Would he jump right into it to aid the sons or would he still try to call a ceasefire, assuming he still got a lot of contradicting messages from both dorn and horus, not knowing what to believe? I suspect the Khan would throw in his lot with Magnus...given how much distaste he has for the SW Imagine a tulwar exploding from Russ' chest as he hefts up Magnus This I highly doubt. No mater how much "distaste" the Khan has for Russ. The fact that the Emperors own Custodes are fighting with Russ would give him pause before he acted and wud push him to seek out why there was a conflict in the first place. After all both the SoS and Custodes are there as the Emperors representatives. The Khan would not willingly go against his father without good reason. Seems quite a few people forget that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Russ shall get his chance don't you worry. Problem is it's like being a super-gene enhanced individual isn't enough. you need to have fangs like wolf and be a proto werewolf to qualify. I can see why they get bashed so much. Le Man Russ will have his day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 But he doesn't hate Russ: 'respect for the warrior; exasperation at the boasts', he thinks in Scars. Calls him a hothead. Disagrees with him over Nikaea but doesn't scorn him like Magnus. He has a disliking for everyone looking at the V legion's moustaches and occasional fur cloak and going 'ah, just like the wolves', in Brotherhood of the Storm, but that's not a slight against the wolves, it's his (and the V legion's) own frustration of being undervalued and forgotten by the wider imperium. He calls the VI legion savages but then so does everyone, and still makes the attempt to respect Fenrisian practice with an 'until next winter'. On the other side, Russ thinks the Khan is 'a strange one' but says he's 'never seen a sword handled better'. He is absolutely certain the Khan didn't side with Horus (when others doubt) and chastises Lord Gunn for doubting him. When he hears that the Khan isn't coming to their aid, he just concedes that the WS have always gone their own way and that they'll survive. He calls the V legion unreliable but then so does everyone. That said, I'm not aware of anything about the Khan and Russ having any sort of relationship at all before Wraight's works. A line in the Iron Warriors IA article about them working together (and ignoring poor ol' Perturabo) does not make for much of a relationship to 'murder'. Honestly, Wraight's work on the White Scars is probably the sharpest improvement in an under-depicted faction anywhere in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 But he doesn't hate Russ: 'respect for the warrior; exasperation at the boasts', he thinks in Scars. Calls him a hothead. Disagrees with him over Nikaea but doesn't scorn him like Magnus. He has a disliking for everyone looking at the V legion's moustaches and occasional fur cloak and going 'ah, just like the wolves', in Brotherhood of the Storm, but that's not a slight against the wolves, it's his (and the V legion's) own frustration of being undervalued and forgotten by the wider imperium. He calls the VI legion savages but then so does everyone, and still makes the attempt to respect Fenrisian practice with an 'until next winter'. On the other side, Russ thinks the Khan is 'a strange one' but says he's 'never seen a sword handled better'. He is absolutely certain the Khan didn't side with Horus (when others doubt) and chastises Lord Gunn for doubting him. When he hears that the Khan isn't coming to their aid, he just concedes that the WS have always gone their own way and that they'll survive. He calls the V legion unreliable but then so does everyone. That said, I'm not aware of anything about the Khan and Russ having any sort of relationship at all before Wraight's works. A line in the Iron Warriors IA article about them working together (and ignoring poor ol' Perturabo) does not make for much of a relationship to 'murder'. Honestly, Wraight's work on the White Scars is probably the sharpest improvement in an under-depicted faction anywhere in 40k. QFT Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 Collected Visions describes Khan and Russ as the closest of brothers Wraight tones that down considerably...though I agree that doesn't mean they hate each other Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Collected Visions describes Khan and Russ as the closest of brothers Wraight tones that down considerably...though I agree that doesn't mean they hate each other That's pretty generic boilerplate text for primarchs though. Most of Collected Visions is just bare-bones summaries, it's all very low on detailed characterisation. The Khan is definitely closer to Magnus but doesn't join in with Magnus's crowing contempt for Russ. When he gets to Prospero in Scars, he doesn't immediately swear to his hatred of Russ for what he sees as a pretty heinous act, just grimly thinks 'yeah, this is Russ's work'. Contrast that with the wonderful malice he shows to Mortarion a few scenes later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I'm at work, so don't have the book in front of me, but when the Khan arrived st Prospero didn't he give the order to open fire on any Fenrisian vessel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 Collected Visions describes Khan and Russ as the closest of brothers Wraight tones that down considerably...though I agree that doesn't mean they hate each other That's pretty generic boilerplate text for primarchs though. Most of Collected Visions is just bare-bones summaries, it's all very low on detailed characterisation. I'd have to go back and read...but I distinctly got the impression that CV was playing up their shared barbarian heritage. It's been ages since I've read CV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I'm at work, so don't have the book in front of me, but when the Khan arrived st Prospero didn't he give the order to open fire on any Fenrisian vessel? Yes, but it's important to remember that he was looking at an utterly destroyed world. Heat of the moment and all that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4565844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 I suspect the Khan would throw in his lot with Magnus...given how much distaste he has for the SW Imagine a tulwar exploding from Russ' chest as he hefts up Magnus I hate that so much. It pisses me off to no end that they completely murdered Russ and Khan's relationship. I used to like WS until Wraight ruined them and my Wolves. Well...by the end of Path of Heaven, Russ and the Khan seem to have made up. They hope to fight side by side in the future Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4566123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I find it amusing that people think Wraight ruined the Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4566184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I find it amusing that people think Wraight ruined the Scars. Who, when, where and how?!?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4566207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I find it amusing that people think Wraight ruined the Scars. Who, when, where and how?!?! Seconded, who dares?! Finished reading Scars for a second time yesterday, what he made for the fifth, i hope he will do for some other legions in desperate need of new authors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4566250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I'm at work, so don't have the book in front of me, but when the Khan arrived st Prospero didn't he give the order to open fire on any Fenrisian vessel? He does but at that point he thinks that Russ may have gone rogue and burned Prospero under his own steam. He's still in 'see it with my own eyes' mode and does hesitate before giving the order. And just as b1soul says, right at the end of Path of Heaven, Russ has harsh words for his brother, threatens to claim blood-debt for the SW warriors the WS could have saved. The Khan - who is at this stage bloody and injured from Catallus - shrugs and says he had to be sure. Russ does as he did with the Lion; laughs, calls him a 'pompous bastard', and they agree they will fight together, 'just as we were meant to'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4566323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 Maybe a Scouring-era bromance between Russ and the Khan That would explain why in CV, the Imperial historian thought Russ and the Khan were best buddies at the time of Alaxxes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4567797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Woulda been more interesting if Russ and Khan showed up on the same side, but Russ was only contacted by the Emps to arrest, and the Khan was only contacted by Horus for the kill. Would have made a much different heresy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4567819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 @Bluntblade - You can't ruin what doesn't exist. Pre-Scars, there was even less material than on the Iron Hands. He certainly didn't pull a Clan Raukan... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4568315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 @Bluntblade - You can't ruin what doesn't exist. Pre-Scars, there was even less material than on the Iron Hands. He certainly didn't pull a Clan Raukan... Well, a little bit did exist Before Scars, this is the impression I've always had: "The Great Crusade The lightning fast style of mobile warfare that had served Jaghatai Khan so well on the steppes of his homeworld proved to be equally effective on the many different battlefields of the Great Crusade; the White Scars became involved in some of the bloodiest battles of the time. The Khan and Leman Russ, the Primarch of the Space Wolves Legion, were said to be the closest of brothers and friends, largely due to the similarity of their respective home cultures and societal values, as well as the cultures of their Legions. When these two Primarchs and their Legions joined forces they proved unstoppable in spreading the Imperial Truth across the galaxy." I think the above is either based on CV or IA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4569071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I think Wraight took the right approach by complicating matters and questioning the idea that just because these were the two hairiest and most stereotypically savage legions that their primarchs would naturally be besties. Calling someone barbaric is always subjective anyway; thinking here of the Greeks and Romans vs. pretty much everyone else. Remember, the Ultramarines in Rules of Engagement consider the Salamanders to be coarse feral worlders. The Emperor's Children look on the Sons of Horus the same way in Horus Rising. Even Russ in Leman Russ supposedly considers the Dark Angels to be beast-hunting savages. The WS in Wraight's books practice calligraphy, study poetry - sounds almost more like the BA or EC - and have a pretty big chip on their shoulder about being looked down on as barbarians. That quiet irritation about being ignored (which works on a meta-BL level, as an ignored legion in terms of coverage) and then mischaracterised is a really clever addition to their background. EDIT: I'm not saying that Russ and the Khan shouldn't be close or that it's wrong for them to be friends. Just that it shouldn't be a given. The current more complex portrayal, with them at various times and in various situations exasperated, not understanding, respectful, at each others' throats and swearing to fight the traitors together is a lot more interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4569230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 It might make more sense for the two to become friends during the Scouring Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327494-what-if-the-ws-got-involved-at-prospero/page/4/#findComment-4569611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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