Loyalist Psychers at Prospero?

[Scyld Fireblade]

Did anyone else notice this quote in the Burning of Prospero game.

 

"To fuel their psychic powers, the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons must tap into the dangerous and unpredictable power of the Warp. Yet to Magnus the Red and his Legion, the ends have always justified the means. Bereft of their own psychers to challenge the Traitor's esoteric ascendancy, the Loyalists must rely on their own indomitable willpower and strength of purpose to counter the sorcery of their foes."

 

This confirms what I have always thought. The Rune Priests did obey Nikea as far as using psychic powers was concered. Unlike the Librarius in most legions, they were not disbanded because they served other functions in the VI Legion beyond being psychers. I am pretty sure that the White Scars kept their Stormcallers around for similar reasons. 

[1000 Sons]

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

[Scyld Fireblade]

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, we know from the novels that Wyrdmake was on Prospero and used his gifts, and I'd bet the other Rune Priests of the Vlka Fenryka used theirs as well.

 

That's probably just a blurb from the game. GW contradicts itself every other release, so I wouldn't form an ironclad opinion on that alone

[okonomiyakimarine]

Did anyone else notice this quote in the Burning of Prospero game.

"To fuel their psychic powers, the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons must tap into the dangerous and unpredictable power of the Warp. Yet to Magnus the Red and his Legion, the ends have always justified the means. Bereft of their own psychers to challenge the Traitor's esoteric ascendancy, the Loyalists must rely on their own indomitable willpower and strength of purpose to counter the sorcery of their foes."

This confirms what I have always thought. The Rune Priests did obey Nikea as far as using psychic powers was concered. Unlike the Librarius in most legions, they were not disbanded because they served other functions in the VI Legion beyond being psychers. I am pretty sure that the White Scars kept their Stormcallers around for similar reasons.

My understanding is that the Space Wolves' psykic powers are cancled out by the Sisters of Silence as much as the Thousand Sons are bereft of their warp-driven abilities.

Even if the Rune priests followed the ruling at Nikea, any of their "special powers" would have been warp-fueled in some way. According to Nikea no psyker could actually be loyal.

Of course their is the possibility that they actually did obey the Decree of Nikea, but come on man, they are savages! Maybe just smarter than the Thousand Sons in hiding their footsteps in the warp. Their is this one event in the novel Thousand Sons that comes to mind where two psykers (Ahriman, Wyrdmake) of the two legions meet well before Prospero and the wolves iirc is just bit more wary.

also: I am with Wolf Lord Kieran, really. It feels like some aspects of the fluff are painted in really broad strokes to transport many aspects of the stories in one little game.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

They really didn't obey.

 

Regardless of if the powers are said to come from the Fenris World Spirit or the Warp, it's the same pool. It's all Warp based gifts and there really isn't much wiggle room there

[Scyld Fireblade]

Well, we know from the novels that Wyrdmake was on Prospero and used his gifts, and I'd bet the other Rune Priests of the Vlka Fenryka used theirs as well.

 

That's probably just a blurb from the game. GW contradicts itself every other release, so I wouldn't form an ironclad opinion on that alone

GW and BL do contradict themselves all the time. But I do not remember Wyrdmake ever actively using his powers on Prospero except to speak with Magnus from across the battlefield. Yes the Sisters would block the Rune Priests' abilities, but the sisters could not be everywhere at once. The only other Rune Priest we have yet seen depicted on Prospero is the one in Prospero Burns, but he does not make use of his powers either.

 

 

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

They really didn't obey.

 

Regardless of if the powers are said to come from the Fenris World Spirit or the Warp, it's the same pool. It's all Warp based gifts and there really isn't much wiggle room there

 

There is no evidence that I am aware of that they did not obey, and this is the only direct evidence that they did.

[okonomiyakimarine]

Well, we know from the novels that Wyrdmake was on Prospero and used his gifts, and I'd bet the other Rune Priests of the Vlka Fenryka used theirs as well.

That's probably just a blurb from the game. GW contradicts itself every other release, so I wouldn't form an ironclad opinion on that alone

GW and BL do contradict themselves all the time. But I do not remember Wyrdmake ever actively using his powers on Prospero except to speak with Magnus from across the battlefield. Yes the Sisters would block the Rune Priests' abilities, but the sisters could not be everywhere at once. The only other Rune Priest we have yet seen depicted on Prospero is the one in Prospero Burns, but he does not make use of his powers either.

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

They really didn't obey.

Regardless of if the powers are said to come from the Fenris World Spirit or the Warp, it's the same pool. It's all Warp based gifts and there really isn't much wiggle room there

There is no evidence that I am aware of that they did not obey, and this is the only direct evidence that they did.

you can believe your wolves to be loyal dogs, if you want

(sorry, could not resist)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wyrdmake make used his powers to hunt down and duel Ahriman on Prospero. Obviously he lost that fight

 

The above example and the continued ventures into Hawsers mind post Nikea all employed the Rune Priests Warp talents, all after the Edict was established.

 

Edict says no more psychic activities in the Legions, the above examples show the Rout did not obey

[Memento Of Prospero]

Great, now we consider a random boardgame blurb as cannon over novels. Sounds good.

[Dantay VI]

WP nobody is taking the blurb as gospel but it is an interesting addendum to information that we already have been given.

 

I have to agree with WLK.

Whether the Wolves believed ot or not they were in breach of the edict.

Ahriman & Wyrdmake communed in the warp before the edict.

 

The only excuse for psyker powers used on Hawser are that it was the only means necessary to try rooting out the spy.

 

Beyond that it was used in self defence once a rune priest had been posessed.

 

Thenat Prospero but by that time the edict was in tatters.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I am saying this because the blurb is a narrative context for the box. There are no psykers on the SW side.

[Baluc]

I am saying this because the blurb is a narrative context for the box. There are no psykers on the SW side.

Pretty much this.

[Sandlemad]

It's just box copy. 'Canonicity' aside, it's making specific reference to the willpower mechanic in the game and the fact that there's no psykers on the SW side, representing Geigor's force. Wait for Inferno.

 

The WS kept the Stormseers around not because they served a different purpose - though they had a strong spiritual role - but because the Khan was firm about no one telling his warriors how to use their powers other than himself. 

[Dantay VI]

So Scars as hypocritical as the Wolves?

[Mango Polo]

So Scars as hypocritical as the Wolves?

The White Scars never claimed their psykers were so unique the rules don't apply to them, nor did they try to pass judgement on others. So no, that leaves the Space Wolves all alone in the hypocrite box :)

[Huggtand]

So Scars as hypocritical as the Wolves?

The White Scars never claimed their psykers were so unique the rules don't apply to them, nor did they try to pass judgement on others. So no, that leaves the Space Wolves all alone in the hypocrite box

Please, can we leave this discussion out of this thread? It gets kind of old seeing every thread with wolves or thousand sons devolve unto the same arguments every time

There are plenty of topics where this question is beaten to death and beyond.

[Dantay VI]

I wasn't referring to passing judgement, and it was the Emperor who did that, the Wolves just enacted the judgement on his then Horus' behalf.

That is for another topic or PM though. Feel free to Pm me I you wish to debate it further :)

 

I was referring to the use of psyker powers despite edict and Khan decides how and when to use their powers rather than the edict itself :)

 

I find it interesting that Wolves cop all the heat for this but Scars never do :)

[Mango Polo]

I find it interesting that Wolves cop all the heat for this but Scars never do

To properly flesh out what I meant rather than just posting a silly jab:

One part is that the White Scars have been a poorly defined legion for a very long time. It's not until the Scars and The Path of Heaven books that anyone gets to really find out what is going on in their heads. Meanwhile the whole SW vs TS conflict is old and beaten and familiar and rehashed. More people are familiar or exposed to the Wolves and Sons, Prospero is very well known and as a result everyone has an opinion on the matter. If the Scars had that kind of attention put on them, I am sure we'd hear more about their defiance of the Edict.

The second is that said books put their choice into context. No one cares about the White Scars and the White Scars are more than happy to not be in the spotlight. They do things their own way and no one bothers them. The only time the White Scars deviate from this is in the librarium project, with Magnus and Sanguinius. This is noteworthy because it's atypical of what would otherwise be of an isolationist legion. It's important enough that the Khan decides to work with others and, maybe, develop some friendships.

Then comes the Edict and suddenly the Emperor, who has shown no interest in them, says everyone needs to put a lid on this whole psyker deal. The Stormseers are an important part of the White Scars culture, and psykers in general are a project the Khan has enough passion for to cooperate with others in developing. With the Edict, the Khan put a lid on the librarium project, but refused to corrupt his legion's culture. It's still an excuse, but it's the kind of excuse that you can nod your head to.

Lastly, the Stormsteers are written as a neutral element, between the Thousand Sons' arrogant and dangerous "the warp is there to be tapped into so we're going to tap the hell into it, consequences are so worth it!" and Space Wolves' hypocritical and prideful "we don't use the disgusting warp, but the pure energy of Fenris". The Stormseers are presented as wise guides and counsellors, impressed by the magnitude of power other legions can pull out of the warp, but consciously refusing to do so because of the inherent danger.

So taking all of that into account, you get a feeling that yeah they're not following the Edict, but unlike the Sons they have a mentality that keeps them in check and unlike the Wolves they don't boast of a purer source of power. At least that's how I've come to see it.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Well said, Mango Polo.

[Dantay VI]

Mango Polo: Thank you for taking the time to flesh out what you were meaning. It is genuinely refreshing to have tis kind of discourse & I respect your point of view.

 

I am going to have to re-read ATS od PB to see where the boastful part comes from. I was aware of the Wolves belief of the elemental power of Fenris, but have overseen where they flung this in other legions faces as justification. I believed the Rune Priests knew the danger of the warp and exercised caution in how for they went in using it.

 

It is also interesting that both Rune Priest and Storm Seers have dual roles within their legions. For he Wolves they are the Knowledge Keepers and the Scars as Counsellors

 

The things you learn.

[Kol Saresk]

So Scars as hypocritical as the Wolves?

The White Scars never claimed their psykers were so unique the rules don't apply to them, nor did they try to pass judgement on others. So no, that leaves the Space Wolves all alone in the hypocrite box

Please, can we leave this discussion out of this thread? It gets kind of old seeing every thread with wolves or thousand sons devolve unto the same arguments every time

There are plenty of topics where this question is beaten to death and beyond.

I mean, normally I'd agree that this discussion should be left alone because there are zealots on both sides who don't do a fantastic job of listening to each other, but then the OP is all about the Space Wolves are justified as "not having psykers because the Rune Priests are special snowflakes". So..... yeah.

Ironically(well, ironically to me because it does make me chuckle), the only humans in 40K background who can play with the warp without being psykers fall into one of two categories; sorcerers and dark apostles. Well, I guess there is the third category of warpsmiths. I'm interested to see which category the Rune Priests fall into if they are indeed not psykers.

To help further expand on the Stormseer topic, Scars technically tells us that the White Scars didn't follow the Edict either, not because they kept the Stormseers around, but because the Stormseers kept using their powers. They were just smart enough to keep their mouths shut about it until the Battle of Terra when their psykers were needed by Dorn(according to the IA articles).

Scars also gives us a brief view that the Khan supported the Librarius project because he believed the psykers of the Space Marine Legions needed to be properly trained so their powers didn't run out of control. They wanted to be a counterpoint to Magnus' willy-nilly devil may care use of the warp. Funnily enough, I also believe it would put their philosphy at odds with the Wolves who either naively believe their powers somehow aren't related to the warp, or willingly choose to play that charade for whatever purpose they think it serves.

[Terminus]

Two points:

 

Burning of Prospero is a quarternary source of fluff at best.

 

Someone actually believes that "Space Wolves don't use the Warp" line? HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Dantay VI]

Hi Terminus,

 

Still offshore, so have not gotten to my BoP box-set yet. I do agree that box stuff  should not really be used as canon,

 

As for the second point, it would be nice to show a little respect for people with differing opinions to your own.

This topic has been fairly chilled and respectful, people have added constructively.

 

I would urge you o do the same.

 

Whilst I also disagree with the powers coming from Fenris' world spirit or whatever are not from the warp,

I have not read Stormcaller, so I do not have evidence of what is stated there or how it I suggested tat the power from Fenris is not connected to the warp..

 

If you would like to elaborate more on point 2 in a constructive manner that would be ace :)

[Terminus]

i can laugh if I find an "opinion" laughable, there is nothing inherently sacred about an opinion, and laughing at it is my most polite response. It's like a swimmer coming out and saying, I don't swim in pools of water, I swim between the forces of life and death of the spirit of Iceland! Either he's being very figurative in describing water, or he's crazy. In either case he is still swimming in water.