Loyalist Psychers at Prospero?

[Huggtand]

I ´m really hoping that Inferno clarifies what the wolves belief is regarding the use of psykic powers so we don’t have to discuss this in every topic

Either they really believe their powers are not directly drawn from the warp which we regard as naïve or wrongly hypocrite (a hypocrite standpoint implies that you know what you do is wrong). Funny thing is we do not have an “official” standpoint that they are wrong, just the words from Airman and Magnus.

They can also just as said above play a charade for some reasons and in that case we can rightly say that they are hypocrites (or maybe they have a secret dispensation )

Until we have something official we can only speculate

Last point is that this is a fictional universe where GW sets what ever canon they like. If they say that the wolves swim between the forces of life and death of the spirit of Iceland instead of in water; that is the canon!

[Brother Tyler]

The Space Wolves' mistaken beliefs about the source of their Rune Priests' powers has already been covered (i.e., the powers derive from the Warp, not Fenris).

 

The statement in the Burning of Prospero description is inaccurate, but is intended solely to portray the asymmetry between the sides - the Thousand Sons' extensive use of psychic powers offset by the loyalists' tactical placement of the Sisters of Silence, who negate those psychic powers.

 

It would be a mistake to read too much into the statement beyond that.

[Jimm]

Wolves clearly used the warp like all others but had their own spiritual belief which led them down a different path of understanding.

 

Not to say they are wrong it's just a different take on the same thing much like region.

[Kol Saresk]

Wolves clearly used the warp like all others but had their own spiritual belief which led them down a different path of understanding.

 

Not to say they are wrong it's just a different take on the same thing much like region.

Agreed. What makes it wrong is the part where they fully believe(or at least tell everyone it is their belief) that their power is somehow different from everyone else's contrary to all the evidence to the fact, contrary to even what the Emperor tells them, and then they use that belief to hold others in judgement.

[Zeratil]

 

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

 

 I'd be interested in the quote for this, does it say that from a neutral/narrative point of view or does it say that from the pov of a space wolf? There being a big difference between the two. I've always thought of the Rune priests 'connection with Fenris' being simillar to the Ennumerations, a belief or discipline system that allows the psyker to channel warp energy. As far as psykers go in 30k, everyone is wrong to a greater or lesser extent, no-one, except maybe the Emperor and Malcador, has the full picture of the nature and dangers of the use of psychic powers.

 

 There's at least one other example of Rune Priest using psychic powers post edict in Fear to Tread as well iirc.

[Sandlemad]

 

 

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

 

 I'd be interested in the quote for this, does it say that from a neutral/narrative point of view or does it say that from the pov of a space wolf? There being a big difference between the two. I've always thought of the Rune priests 'connection with Fenris' being simillar to the Ennumerations, a belief or discipline system that allows the psyker to channel warp energy. As far as psykers go in 30k, everyone is wrong to a greater or lesser extent, no-one, except maybe the Emperor and Malcador, has the full picture of the nature and dangers of the use of psychic powers.

 

 There's at least one other example of Rune Priest using psychic powers post edict in Fear to Tread as well iirc.

 

 

From Stormcaller, Njal's POV (my bolding):

 

"They could have no understanding of this, those who did not walk the path of the runes. For outsiders, the power he wielded was nothing but dabbling in the shallows of the warp, just like any trickster or fallen sorcerer. Njal had heard the arguments a thousand times, and had read the same in a hundred proscribed manuscripts.

You are no different. You are warp-weavers, just as we are. All rivers meet at the same source, and our damnations are the same. 

They were wrong. The whispers were wrong. Njal had seen the world-soul, raging in the heart of darkness. He had heard the low growls in the netherworld, and seen the pairs of eyes glowing in the afterdark. He had felt the power that would consume him in the end, dissipating his soul into the raging tempest that would break at the galaxy’s end. 

The power he wielded was of a different order, one tempered and purified by the mystical symmetries of the hunt and the wild. Those who had never known Fenris could disbelieve it all they liked. It changed nothing."

 

That is from the 40k chapter's preeminent rune priest. I don't think he sees their powers as the warp-channeling that they obviously are (and that every other psychic power is) but your enumerations analogy looks accurate from the bolded part. The thing is, surely every 30k and 40k librarian has some sort of means of self-discipline to actually use their powers and not be overwhelmed. The wolves are no different from the Thousand Sons or White Scars in having this kind of tradition, just at the opposite end of the safety/exploration spectrum from the TS, with the WS in the middle as MangoPolo said earlier in the thread.

 

Looks to me like the wolves genuinely believed their powers were a different beast to those wielded by others. They saw the arguments that it's all the same and rejected them with absolute certainty, for reasons arising from the Fenrisian worldview described by Apologist in the last thread touching upon this.

[Terminus]

That worldview being one of denying reality and barking "maleficarum!" at everything different, lol. But let's not turn this thread into another condemnation of the Wolves', their 30K fans are bitter enough of late. :D :D :D

[Zeratil]

 

 

 

The wolves believed their psykers got their power from fenris, not the warp.

They do, and the 40k novel Stormcaller suggests that they are correct, but the edict of Nikea banned the use of psychic powers by the Legions, and based on the quote the Wolves still obeyed.

 

 I'd be interested in the quote for this, does it say that from a neutral/narrative point of view or does it say that from the pov of a space wolf? There being a big difference between the two. I've always thought of the Rune priests 'connection with Fenris' being simillar to the Ennumerations, a belief or discipline system that allows the psyker to channel warp energy. As far as psykers go in 30k, everyone is wrong to a greater or lesser extent, no-one, except maybe the Emperor and Malcador, has the full picture of the nature and dangers of the use of psychic powers.

 

 There's at least one other example of Rune Priest using psychic powers post edict in Fear to Tread as well iirc.

 

 

From Stormcaller, Njal's POV (my bolding):

 

"They could have no understanding of this, those who did not walk the path of the runes. For outsiders, the power he wielded was nothing but dabbling in the shallows of the warp, just like any trickster or fallen sorcerer. Njal had heard the arguments a thousand times, and had read the same in a hundred proscribed manuscripts.

You are no different. You are warp-weavers, just as we are. All rivers meet at the same source, and our damnations are the same. 

They were wrong. The whispers were wrong. Njal had seen the world-soul, raging in the heart of darkness. He had heard the low growls in the netherworld, and seen the pairs of eyes glowing in the afterdark. He had felt the power that would consume him in the end, dissipating his soul into the raging tempest that would break at the galaxy’s end. 

The power he wielded was of a different order, one tempered and purified by the mystical symmetries of the hunt and the wild. Those who had never known Fenris could disbelieve it all they liked. It changed nothing."

 

That is from the 40k chapter's preeminent rune priest. I don't think he sees their powers as the warp-channeling that they obviously are (and that every other psychic power is) but your enumerations analogy looks accurate from the bolded part. The thing is, surely every 30k and 40k librarian has some sort of means of self-discipline to actually use their powers and not be overwhelmed. The wolves are no different from the Thousand Sons or White Scars in having this kind of tradition, just at the opposite end of the safety/exploration spectrum from the TS, with the WS in the middle as MangoPolo said earlier in the thread.

 

Looks to me like the wolves genuinely believed their powers were a different beast to those wielded by others. They saw the arguments that it's all the same and rejected them with absolute certainty, for reasons arising from the Fenrisian worldview described by Apologist in the last thread touching upon this.

 

 Thanks mate, that's interesting stuff. Given that quote I stick to my guns, it's all the same warp but the psychic tradition the psyker is raised in affects how that power manifests - which is broadly what Ahriman hints at in ATS when he meets Wyrdmake. The culture of that use can also serve as some protection, strictures on not diving too deep into the warps currents (such as the Wolves and White Scars have) etc. My personal take on the tradition is that Magnus and the Sons were broadly correct with the cults on the different tides of the warp (assuming that the core book psychic disciplines are in some way the 'cardinal' uses/schools of psychic power (given that everyone has access to them to a greater or lesser extent as well as their own traditions - be they Imperial, Xenos, Chaos etc). They were of course wrong about how dangerous drawing so deeply from the warp as they did was (in their defence it worked well for a couple of centuries apart from their genetic curse while the chaos gods were playing hide and seek) and dismissing cautions they perceived to be superstitious and unworthy of heeding.

 

 In 40k it would seem the Grey Knights are the closest to being incorruptible psykers amongst humanity, being the combination of the most controlled psykers and the Emperor/Malcador's work in creating the tools, training and discipline regimes to create warriors an uncorruptible as possible. Of course given that the novels rarely tackle perils of the warp - which affects pretty much all psykers even if they have some wargear to (sometimes) mitigate it like Eldar or Chaos Sorcerers - things get very muddy about who is protected from what psychic wise.

[Terminus]

Grey Knights have hexagrammic wards seared onto their very bones. Their very flesh and blood is sanctified against Chaos.

 

And one point in defense of Wolves, not knowing and blind faith can actually be potent weapons in Warhammer. The material universe is an illusion, all is shaped by the torrents of the warp, and those torrents are shaped by human emotion and certainty.

[Calas Typhon]

I am curious, Howl of the Hearthworld states that there were once Librarians within the VI Legion. 

 

There was a "Librarian" within the Legion assigned to watch over Dorn, whom still wears the psychic hood. A "Warpriest of the runes" by the name of Naugrim if my memory serves correct.

 

There is a bit of a dodgy part with the Edict of Nikea and a scribe within the short where the fellow does not believe the "Librarian" is being truthful as he is taking the groups names and the wolves get aggressive.

[Kol Saresk]

I am curious, Howl of the Hearthworld states that there were once Librarians within the VI Legion. 

 

There was a "Librarian" within the Legion assigned to watch over Dorn, whom still wears the psychic hood. A "Warpriest of the runes" by the name of Naugrim if my memory serves correct.

 

There is a bit of a dodgy part with the Edict of Nikea and a scribe within the short where the fellow does not believe the "Librarian" is being truthful as he is taking the groups names and the wolves get aggressive.

Yeah, that goes back to where the Wolves think it doesn't apply to them but they realize everyone outside the Legion thinks it does. So it goes back to that wonderful mess of "Yes, the Edict does apply to the Rune Priests, the Wolves just pretend it doesn't." Whether out of honest ignorance or bureaucratic nonsense, we may never know.