Vogon Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 This weekend I made a start on painting my Custodes from the BoP box and noticed a number of them have what look like the Crux Terminatus found on the shoulders of 40K terminators. Is this where the badge of honour originated in the 40K universe? I know each one is supposed to have a sliver of the Emperor’s armour from the final battle with Horus in it so this makes me think that during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era it may be a mark of favour granted by the Emperor to those who have done some sort of heroic deed. What are the collective’s thoughts? Cheers Vogon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I thought it came about after Horus Crippled the Emperor. Fragment's of his own Armor are in-bedded into the Crux's. Kind of a "My own armor shall protect thee whilst you protect me" statement. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crux_Terminatus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 That symbol was all over them in collected visions and you see it in various legion veteran badges. I think it's the mark of the elite and the crux terminatus is it's post codex evolution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 The cross was a symbol of general veterancy in 30k. Still is in the game more generally, kind of; think of the cross icon for the Elites section of the force org. Same source as the Black Templar's cross, Sigismund commanded the elite and it stuck as the chapter's icon at the second founding. It's the skull, the use of stone, the supposed presence of a fragment of the emperor's armour that make it specifically a Crux Terminatus. EDIT: I realise now that those icons in the force org are meant to derive from the codex astartes so I suppose the idea of a plain cross being an imperium-wide symbol of veterancy still holds up post-codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I tend to think only officer TDA have the fragment, because 10,000 years later, the Emperor's suit should have run out of fragments by now :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Truckin Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I tend to think only officer TDA have the fragment, because 10,000 years later, the Emperor's suit should have run out of fragments by now I think of the fragments to be more like the gold flakes in Goldschlager Maybe only a few paint chips from the Emps armour is mixed in each Crux. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 I tend to think only officer TDA have the fragment, because 10,000 years later, the Emperor's suit should have run out of fragments by now Isn’t each suit of terminator armout “incredibly ancient etc.” like all pieces of kit owned by the space marines? ;) Thanks for the answers guys. I hadn’t linked the symbol with the back Templars at all. It looked to me like the badges when a veteran or captain with terminator honours. Cheers Vogon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I tend to think only officer TDA have the fragment, because 10,000 years later, the Emperor's suit should have run out of fragments by now Isn’t each suit of terminator armout “incredibly ancient etc.” like all pieces of kit owned by the space marines? Thanks for the answers guys. I hadn’t linked the symbol with the back Templars at all. It looked to me like the badges when a veteran or captain with terminator honours. Cheers Vogon As far as I remember, Most suits of Terminator armour are remarkably old in 40k. A nod to this is the Chapters still using some of the old marks. They are by and large ancient, rare and highly sought after, many being forged before the heresy or just after, which led to scrupulous care in managing and taking care of them. So its entirely possible that nearly all the current terminator sets with the crux are the same sets that were used when the "shard of the emperor's armour" was implemented into each crux. I doubt many of the newer crafted sets would have them included in the crux. Up to and during the Heresy, there were only a limited amount of Terminator suits given to the Space Marine Legions (Outside of the Iron Hands, Death Guard and possibly the Alpha Legion whom the two latter possibly had the means to craft their own suits) so they were not exactly in high quantities leading to the Emperor's toilet and its not much better in 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I don't think the Crux Terminatus actually has any link with Sigismund's Templar Cross (either personally, or supported by the fluff that I know of), so I would discount that connection as coincidence. As far as I remember, Most suits of Terminator armour are remarkably old in 40k. A nod to this is the Chapters still using some of the old marks. They are by and large ancient, rare and highly sought after, many being forged before the heresy or just after, which led to scrupulous care in managing and taking care of them. So its entirely possible that nearly all the current terminator sets with the crux are the same sets that were used when the "shard of the emperor's armour" was implemented into each crux. I doubt many of the newer crafted sets would have them included in the crux. Up to and during the Heresy, there were only a limited amount of Terminator suits given to the Space Marine Legions (Outside of the Iron Hands, Death Guard and possibly the Alpha Legion whom the two latter possibly had the means to craft their own suits) so they were not exactly in high quantities leading to the Emperor's toilet and its not much better in 40k. Regardless of how common Terminator was before the Heresy, the Emperor was still using his armour up until Horus killed him, so the Crux Terminatus a strictly post-Heresy thing. Also, given how small an armour shard is actually needed for the CT (as I wouldn't suppose size has a bearing on, er, "effectiveness"), I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty huge number of them. They would still be limited though, of course; not only because the Emperor's armour is a limited thing, but also because I can't imagine it's very easy to acquire more shards when new suits are made. Then again, it could be like any number of real-world "relics" which when scientifically investigated cannot possibly be from the people/events that they purport to be. However, in 40k, the power of belief may in fact be such that it really doesn't matter anyway - as long as everyone believes that the shard is from the Emperor's armour, then it's still just as "effective". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I don't think the Crux Terminatus actually has any link with Sigismund's Templar Cross (either personally, or supported by the fluff that I know of), so I would discount that connection as coincidence. As far as I remember, Most suits of Terminator armour are remarkably old in 40k. A nod to this is the Chapters still using some of the old marks. They are by and large ancient, rare and highly sought after, many being forged before the heresy or just after, which led to scrupulous care in managing and taking care of them. So its entirely possible that nearly all the current terminator sets with the crux are the same sets that were used when the "shard of the emperor's armour" was implemented into each crux. I doubt many of the newer crafted sets would have them included in the crux. Up to and during the Heresy, there were only a limited amount of Terminator suits given to the Space Marine Legions (Outside of the Iron Hands, Death Guard and possibly the Alpha Legion whom the two latter possibly had the means to craft their own suits) so they were not exactly in high quantities leading to the Emperor's toilet and its not much better in 40k. Regardless of how common Terminator was before the Heresy, the Emperor was still using his armour up until Horus killed him, so the Crux Terminatus a strictly post-Heresy thing. Also, given how small an armour shard is actually needed for the CT (as I wouldn't suppose size has a bearing on, er, "effectiveness"), I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty huge number of them. They would still be limited though, of course; not only because the Emperor's armour is a limited thing, but also because I can't imagine it's very easy to acquire more shards when new suits are made. Then again, it could be like any number of real-world "relics" which when scientifically investigated cannot possibly be from the people/events that they purport to be. However, in 40k, the power of belief may in fact be such that it really doesn't matter anyway - as long as everyone believes that the shard is from the Emperor's armour, then it's still just as "effective". My point was, many of the Terminator suits around the heresy era no matter the number would follow on through to the present 40k timeline due to the amount of care and import those sets of armour were given. On the topic: The only thing I dont see happening is the Emperors armour being dished out later down the line, no matter the size. With the mantle of God given to him since the abandoning of the Primarchs, I don't see why in all its "holiness", it would be trusted to anyone but whoever would have enough power on Terra. Therefore I would say that It would be the earlier models and suits that would be given the shard in the crux, if it was true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 I was just wondering about any connection between the similarity between the symbol on the Custodes and 40K terminators. Interesting discussion though Cheers Vogon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 The BT cross is the imperial fists version of the veterans cross. Same source, but not the source of the later codex CT. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4561921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Originally it was only captains that had a fragment of the Emperor's armor. Also it'seems really just the suit itself that is so great at protecting the wearer. It's not as though Terminator armor was 2+ in the Heresy and became 2+/5++ after the chip was put in the shoulder. I think its fine to have a crux on a 30k model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327813-the-origin-of-the-crux-terminatus/#findComment-4562161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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