Leman Russ: The Great Wolf Discussion (Spoilers)

[Fang_Guard23]

I got my hands on the book last week and it took me a day and morning to finish it up

 

The story is how the Wolves and the Angels started out their rivalry that has lasting for millennia.

 

*) 6th legion forces of the 13th Great Company lead by Jorin Bloodhowl assault orbital bastion of the Dulanian Empire, they seek to find the location of Dulan from the bastions computer systems. This battle also gave notice to the Curse of the Wulfen, two 13th company warriors turn into wulfen, they both died from their wounds and were later examined by the company Wolf Priest, Bulveye and Jorin. This was the first time the change happened for a warrior after the test of Morkai

*) Bulveye was Wolf Guard to Jorin

 

Russ wanted the Tyrant of Dulan's head for causing so much grief for the wolves

 

Russ was trying to search for Dulan to try show the usefulness of his legion, he receives word that Malcador has also tasked the Lion with location of Dulan. Russ wanted to be at the planet first. When the wolves arrived at Dulan they expected the fleet to put up a fight but it turns out that the Angels had found the planet first and assaulted the fleet docked there. 

 

13the company ship pours in and destroys a disabled dulanian ship, but then dark angels fire on 13th company vessel, turns out that 10 squads of 1st legion warriors were onboard trying to take the ship to use its weapons against dulan's orbital defense ring.

 

The wolves assault the ring but with a hitch, 2 warriors are missing from the legion, Jorin deduced that they were captured alive. as the assault on the planet happened  Russ was pushing to take the Tyrants fortress and claim his prize, but as he was massing his forces to storm the fortress, but Jorin wasn't there, he had broken off with a squad to find the missing warriors, which resulted in Russ trying to find him and delaying the assault.

 

When Jorin found the wulfen they were put on display to show the entire planet what the warriors of the space wolves were truly, used as a propaganda tactic. Even the dark angels saw the changed warrior and decided to teleport into the Tyrant's throne room. 

 

El'Johnson took Russ' kill and a fight ensued.

 

Well many of you know the rest

[Runefyre]

I'm really disliking what I'm hearing for the majority of the novel. But I'm curious, just how nuanced was the dual? Did Russ win? I'm kinda hoping so.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm really disliking what I'm hearing for the majority of the novel. But I'm curious, just how nuanced was the dual? Did Russ win? I'm kinda hoping so.

Well, unless the novel did a sneaky retcon

Russ and Lion fought for a couple days, until Russ realized how childish they were and started laughing. So really, Russ got the moral victory there. Alas, the Lion thought he was mocking him and knocked him out cold. Thus the grudge.

 

 

Although from what I gathered, this honour duel ritual was never about a grudge and more about to honour the duel that occured there. I prefer it that way. There is no time and place for grudges.

[Runefyre]

I'm really disliking what I'm hearing for the majority of the novel. But I'm curious, just how nuanced was the dual? Did Russ win? I'm kinda hoping so.

Well, unless the novel did a sneaky retcon

Russ and Lion fought for a couple days, until Russ realized how childish they were and started laughing. So really, Russ got the moral victory there. Alas, the Lion thought he was mocking him and knocked him out cold. Thus the grudge.

Although from what I gathered, this honour duel ritual was never about a grudge and more about to honour the duel that occured there. I prefer it that way. There is no time and place for grudges.

I was thinking more along the lines of who was more dominant during the fight. I know how it ended (don't we all) lol

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'm really disliking what I'm hearing for the majority of the novel. But I'm curious, just how nuanced was the dual? Did Russ win? I'm kinda hoping so.

Well, unless the novel did a sneaky retcon

Russ and Lion fought for a couple days, until Russ realized how childish they were and started laughing. So really, Russ got the moral victory there. Alas, the Lion thought he was mocking him and knocked him out cold. Thus the grudge.

Although from what I gathered, this honour duel ritual was never about a grudge and more about to honour the duel that occured there. I prefer it that way. There is no time and place for grudges.

I was thinking more along the lines of who was more dominant during the fight. I know how it ended (don't we all) lol

Neither side was truly dominant. Russ and the Lion were almost perfect counters to one another.

I've got complaints about the rest of the book,but not the fight.

[Kasper_Hawser]

So basically.... the book sucked? That's the vibe i'm getting here.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

So basically.... the book sucked? That's the vibe i'm getting here.

 

I wouldnt say it sucked...just that it failed to mesh with the previously established Wolf identity shown by the BL. 

 

Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

There is a thread down in the Black Library subforum that discusses the book in greater detail, but certain personalities have soured my enjoyment of the thread.

[Guest]

 

 

 

I'm really disliking what I'm hearing for the majority of the novel. But I'm curious, just how nuanced was the dual? Did Russ win? I'm kinda hoping so.

 

Well, unless the novel did a sneaky retcon

Russ and Lion fought for a couple days, until Russ realized how childish they were and started laughing. So really, Russ got the moral victory there. Alas, the Lion thought he was mocking him and knocked him out cold. Thus the grudge.

 

Although from what I gathered, this honour duel ritual was never about a grudge and more about to honour the duel that occured there. I prefer it that way. There is no time and place for grudges.

I was thinking more along the lines of who was more dominant during the fight. I know how it ended (don't we all) lol :P

 

Neither side was truly dominant. Russ and the Lion were almost perfect counters to one another.

 

I've got complaints about the rest of the book,but not the fight.

This makes sense in a sense actually. Wasnt one of Russ's abilities was to locate weaknesses of an opponent. While wasnt the lions ability was to keep secrets? I would imagine that means he could hide any physical weakness as well. So this would negate Russ ability and if they were near the same physical strength and skill would be a near equal fight.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I always thought most primarchs were an even match for each other, well except for that loser Lorgar.

 

So once again, even the talented Chris Wright could not, or wasn't allowed to, portray the Wolves in a decent light or as their portrayal as the Emperor's executioners?

 

Fro, the original post, it does seem like the Wolves were outmaneuvered at every turn, whether by the tyrant of Duran or the Dark Angels themselves.

 

Sigh, I think I will stick to Blackmane as my next e book purchase, or Path to Heaven.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think that Blackmane should be required reading for every wolf

[Runefyre]

Just imagine how the wolves would have been treated if it were Johnson's book....*shudders*

[Frater Cornelius]

The bitterness levels is approaching Grey Knight sub-forum levels Oo have a Mjod and relax ;)

[Vykryl]

Dantay lent me a few 30k and 40k books to check out. I'll stick to the lore in the old codexs I have rather than waste my time on the novels :( Enjoy them if you can.

[Baluc]

I need to resolve myself to not reading about the wolves until inferno and deciding then if they are the legion for me still. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I need to resolve myself to not reading about the wolves until inferno and deciding then if they are the legion for me still. 

 

This is the problem that now exists. We need to keep alive the Wolves we love, not wait for FW to put out a bad product. We already have good reason to believe that it will make fluff changes we won't like, according to the Warhammer open day. Instead of jumping Legion, fight for what you love, if Wolves is what you like to begin with.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Remember guys, we play the Wolves for what they are now, not what they were in the past. So even if Russ and his legion were the worse in both combat and warfare in the days of the Great Crusade, it doesn't change the current timeline where it is well established the ferocity, cunning and reputation of the Wolves, even without Grimnar.

 

Alone of all the chapters, the Wolves have face not one but two daemon primarchs and lived to tell the tale. Granted it wasn't complete victories (Magnus decided to fly kite after achieving his objective, and Angron was tricked into fighting Grey Knights), but in both cases, the fought long, hard and with pure awesomeness.

 

This is the Wolves Russ ultimately wanted to change and boy did he succeed.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Two issues with that idea.

 

Firstly, some of us don't like the way GW have been taking the 40k Wolves. From the derpy 'Wolfy McWolfson' style change, shifting far more towards Fantasy Werewolves with TWC, Santa Logan and the new Wulfen. The Wolves I got into back in the day were essentially Sci Fi vikings, but that's an aesthetic they're drifting further and further from with every release. So some of us had been hoping that the 30k fluff would offer a shelter from the 40k stuff we didn't like. Especially as 40k is on the verge of shafting us harder than ever with Fenris Pt2 (hope I'm wrong, but I'm not expecting happy things from that book).

 

Secondly, it's looking increasingly like the reason Russ and the Wolves needed to 'change' post Prospero was because the writers have decided the haters were right, the VI Legion were delusional, barely competent, hypocrites. That's not an inspiring foundation for the Chapter, whatever the final result. Hell, it would appear that this book makes the PB quote from your sig (one of the better elements of a very mixed work imo) just another delusion, as the Wolves certainly seem plenty feral and undisciplined here.

 

Ultimately I don't think the 'ignore the Heresy stuff, it's the past' idea really works. The Heresy as a setting only increasing in prominence with time, and shafting the Wolves, making them the only Legion made up of incompetent braggarts with delusions of grandeur and a record that makes TNG-era Worf flinch in sympathy isn't good storytelling. Note, this isn't only of the new Russ book (though it certainly plays its part), but we're sorely lacking anything truly positive for the VI.

[Frater Cornelius]

And now that Heresy is doing the shafting as well it is time to create your own saga. GW sure as heck ain't gonna provide :P

[Kasper_Hawser]

Two issues with that idea.

 

Firstly, some of us don't like the way GW have been taking the 40k Wolves. From the derpy 'Wolfy McWolfson' style change, shifting far more towards Fantasy Werewolves with TWC, Santa Logan and the new Wulfen. The Wolves I got into back in the day were essentially Sci Fi vikings, but that's an aesthetic they're drifting further and further from with every release. So some of us had been hoping that the 30k fluff would offer a shelter from the 40k stuff we didn't like. Especially as 40k is on the verge of shafting us harder than ever with Fenris Pt2 (hope I'm wrong, but I'm not expecting happy things from that book).

 

Secondly, it's looking increasingly like the reason Russ and the Wolves needed to 'change' post Prospero was because the writers have decided the haters were right, the VI Legion were delusional, barely competent, hypocrites. That's not an inspiring foundation for the Chapter, whatever the final result. Hell, it would appear that this book makes the PB quote from your sig (one of the better elements of a very mixed work imo) just another delusion, as the Wolves certainly seem plenty feral and undisciplined here.

 

Ultimately I don't think the 'ignore the Heresy stuff, it's the past' idea really works. The Heresy as a setting only increasing in prominence with time, and shafting the Wolves, making them the only Legion made up of incompetent braggarts with delusions of grandeur and a record that makes TNG-era Worf flinch in sympathy isn't good storytelling. Note, this isn't only of the new Russ book (though it certainly plays its part), but we're sorely lacking anything truly positive for the VI.

 

You raise some valid points which I respect and also feel you. I also started Space Wolves thinking them as Space Vikings, even though I joined the game in fifth edition when Thunderwolves were in existence. After Curse of the Wulfen, I finally gave up pretending to be Space Vikings, and thought of myself as Space Werewolves or Space Team Jacob. Wasn't too happy, but hey, in the end it's just a game, just my way of coping with the current fluff downgrade that seems to make the Vlka Fenryka look more incompetent with every passing novel, even with my favorite author Chris Wright.

 

Immersturm is correct, GW almost sure as hell ain't gonna provide awesome sagas, so we'll have to forge our own. Like my Drakeslayers Greatpack managing to beat Kaldor Draigo and Tigurius snowflakes, Grav Centurions and Dreadknights with just Blood Claws, Wulfen and Krom in an objective game. 

 

Also we're hardly alone among Space Marine chapters to get screwed and made to look incompetent, both in 30K and 40K. White Scars and the Raven Guard had their butts kicked in the Kauyon book despite their awesome decurion rules. (Remember the Raven Guard chapter master?) And Corax never realised Alpharius had infiltrated his own Raven Guard in Deliverance Lost. And Salamanders have been confusingly portrayed by Nick Kyme as semi-mystical marines obsessed with Vulkan artifacts. 

 

I think the worse to be screwed in terms of fluff is still Iron Hands, from their primarch getting a viking crewcut, the legion devolving into flesh hating bigots (barring a few awesome guerillas like Shadrak Meduson and other survivors of Istvaan), to a third of their chapter getting corrupted by Slaanesh in Clan Raukaan.

[MaveriK]

MMmm... while I completely understand every ones feelings here. You all forget, we the people, the players, the consumers also control the narrative (to a point) by accepting or influencing what's thrown at us, through their books/rules and new models. We can either give them their sales or we don't. It's as simple as that! if we don't buy into the hype, then the narrative will eventually change. We have some control as to whether or not we like what is being done to our hobby/army. At the end of the day GW is still a business.

 

While there are some harsh hatred/envy towards the wolves as a whole by outsiders, that alone also shouldn't deter those with power/influence to change the narrative, just to appease a minority. Plus we can't completely fault the writers here, they are just doing their jobs to the best of their abilities/resources. Like it or not, Space Wolves has been one of the more popular armies since the early days of rogue trader and that is a FACT. Lets just not confuse fact over opinions of the haters.

 

As for the "delusional, barely competent, hypocrites" comment. While many among ourselves and even from our enemies may feel this way. We fail to recognize what it truly is and that is the tragedy of their core being. While many will see a hypocrite with the wolves, to the core of their upbringing and character, they are simply doing what they were breed to do, what they were trained to do. It's their own fatal flaw and to me, that makes them even more human for they have faults just like the Thousand Sons do. The wolves make mistakes, they recognize their accomplishments but they also recognize their own failings. As Russ realized, he needed to change, the legion needed to adapt or perish. Circumstances dictate action.

 

While I personally loved the portrayal of the wolves in Prospero Burns, it gave them more depth, character and gritty look. I do agree that the current/recent style of the Space Wolves with an overkill of wolf theme is somewhat comical, even more so with the newer look of the wulfen (world of warcraft?).

 

Anyway, you see hypocrisy with the wolves, but I see nothing but proud gamers who are unwilling to recognize their own insecurities with something we all have invested so much over the years. It can be a hard pill to swallow I know but it's only human behavior. I think this quote says it best.

 

“I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er,” (Macbeth:Act 3)

 

If you don't like the overkill of the wolf-wolf-theme, then don't put them on your models. If you don't like the Fenris blue and prefer the 30K grey, then paint it that way. We have control here!

 

What we allow to affect us is on the individual, but DON'T make it a we problem, when it's a YOU problem to begin with. It's as simple as that guys. We have control on what we buy, in what we paint and in what we place on the tabletop. Just chill. Step back a little, laugh it off, learn from it and hopefully grow from there. Nuff said!

[Leif Bearclaw]

As for the "delusional, barely competent, hypocrites" comment. While many among ourselves and even from our enemies may feel this way. We fail to recognize what it truly is and that is the tragedy of their core being. While many will see a hypocrite with the wolves, to the core of their upbringing and character, they are simply doing what they were breed to do, what they were trained to do. It's their own fatal flaw and to me, that makes them even more human for they have faults just like the Thousand Sons do. The wolves make mistakes, they recognize their accomplishments but they also recognize their own failings. As Russ realized, he needed to change, the legion needed to adapt or perish. Circumstances dictate action.

 

You're conflating two different things here imo. The problem isn't that the Wolves are 'simply doing what they were bred to do', it's they they are consistently displayed as incompetent at it, yet still have giant egos. They've taken one of the better ideas of Prospero Burns, that the Wolves seemed to know themselves, their role, and were content with it, and rendered it nothing but a hollow lie They don't seem to have any real accomplishments to recognise, just this whole 'myth of primacy' thing, and an on screen record of arrogant team killing, poor discipline and needing to be saved. I'll stand by my previous statement, that's not good storytelling.

[MaveriK]

 

As for the "delusional, barely competent, hypocrites" comment. While many among ourselves and even from our enemies may feel this way. We fail to recognize what it truly is and that is the tragedy of their core being. While many will see a hypocrite with the wolves, to the core of their upbringing and character, they are simply doing what they were breed to do, what they were trained to do. It's their own fatal flaw and to me, that makes them even more human for they have faults just like the Thousand Sons do. The wolves make mistakes, they recognize their accomplishments but they also recognize their own failings. As Russ realized, he needed to change, the legion needed to adapt or perish. Circumstances dictate action.

 

You're conflating two different things here imo. The problem isn't that the Wolves are 'simply doing what they were bred to do', it's they they are consistently displayed as incompetent at it, yet still have giant egos. They've taken one of the better ideas of Prospero Burns, that the Wolves seemed to know themselves, their role, and were content with it, and rendered it nothing but a hollow lie They don't seem to have any real accomplishments to recognise, just this whole 'myth of primacy' thing, and an on screen record of arrogant team killing, poor discipline and needing to be saved. I'll stand by my previous statement, that's not good storytelling.

 

Once again, opinion vs fact. I'm not saying you're wrong entirely. I'm just stating that if it's not good storytelling, then why are certain individuals so worked up about it? a good writer, even a poor one has that ability to enrage, empower and inspire in what is written.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Once again, opinion vs fact. I'm not saying you're wrong entirely. I'm just stating that if it's not good storytelling, then why are certain individuals so worked up about it? a good writer, even a poor one has that ability to enrage, empower and inspire in what is written.

 

Because a story doesn't have to be good to invoke a negative reaction? The Phantom Menace, Highlander 2, Dragonball Evolution. All are infamously bad films that earned the ire of their respective fanbases. By this logic CS Goto was a good author for the BL, because he had the ability to enrage his audience.

 

I think I get what you're trying to say here, that a good author/story can also induce an enraged response in the audience. However, I'd say there's a key difference in where the ire is directed. It's a concept the blogger Shamus Young covered in exhaustive detail while discussing Mass Effect 3, but the key is, good storytelling has the reader angry at the characters, bad storytelling has the reader angry at the writers. And unfortunately BL/GW/FW seems to be doing a lot more of the latter at the moment (not confined to the SWs, but they're our principal subject here).

 

Granted, by its very nature, this is a somewhat nebulous and subjective distinction. But given the number of disaffected/disillusioned Wolf fans I'm seeing, I certainly don't feel comfortable saying it's the fan's fault, rather than the writer's. Which was the impression I got from your initial post, apologies if I misunderstood.

[Frater Cornelius]

I agree that the quality of the material depends on the writer. Having said that, each person is different and as such it is impossible to please everyone. What the writer considers good may be complete garbage to others.

 

In the end, we are responsible for our own enjoyment. I know what I like or dislike, so I am going to use that knowledge to my advantage and create my own narrative, instead of putting it into the hands of someone else who may botch it.

 

That is precisely the reason why I prefer to view 40k as a, more of less, disjointed setting. A collection of stories and legends, some good, some bad, but noone can say which is true or not. Enforcing a narrative means confirming which stories are true and which are not means players can not decide for themselves and thus shape their hobby.

[Dantay VI]

I read it and was mixed.

 

Dulan was originally a joint operation and Russ wanted the Tyrants head because he insulted Russ.

 

That is gone.

 

Now it is a SW operationbut because they are distrusted the DA were sent soon after.

 

It only became a joint operation at Dulan which the DA's got to first.

 

And Russ is only there yhrough the desperate desire to complete a mission to appease his detractors on Terra and show the Wolves can be trusted.

Its interesting that the rest of the legion but Russ is oblivious to the curse of yhe wulfen up to this point.

 

I understand the 13th rushingin to redeem themselves for not getting Russ to Dulan first. I am surprised that they ignored hails or Russ did not try calling the Lion before committing. This annoys me because it makes the Wolves look incompetent and puts them on the back foot from the outset.

 

I am also surprised that Wraight did away with the original lore of the legions fighting side by side and the wolves flank getting exposed when the Lion drove forward.

 

Russ bows to his brother and accepts his plans.

 

Instead it becomes the Lion managing his mission parameters oerfectly while the Wolves smash their way forward.

 

Once again the Wolves delays caused the Lion to finish the mission.

 

The fight was the only part I liked.

 

What hapoens after with dream sequences etc had me very confused with the hopping back and forth...

 

Definitely Wraights worst SW work to date.

 

Made the Wolves look mediocre to chumps... especially Jorin.

 

We also know Ogvai and in turn Aesks will not be long in the history if the Wolves along with Jorin.

 

Which of these 3 will be in Inferno or will it be Gunn?