Successor Chapter, foolish question

[Redfinger]

I kind of think it is silly to be asking this seeing how they are my models. Talking about things helps me wrap my head around them.

 

I want to make a DIY chapter. I have a cool back story rounded out. They are a Ultramarine chapter. I have been obsessing over he appearnace if this chapter for a while. I keep coming back to the appearance of the Ultramarines. I love the blue/gold/white. I think it looks great.

 

Is it blasphemy to duplicate the Ultramarine appearance, colors and icons, but change the chapter name? I was thinking of adding a sword or skull to the omega, but it just doesn't sit right. Also, there is a ton of hobby accessories for Ultramarine bits and upgrades, really opens up some modeling fun.

 

Again I realize this is silly, but talking about it helps.

 

A.

[Olis]

While it very much is a case of "your army, your prerogative", I think doing a straight cut & paste of the parent Chapter's colour scheme is a little bit lazy. By all means stick to the same colour palette and same overall look but even just a small deviation from the Ultramarine's scheme can help give your army it's own flavour. Hell, most Blood Angel successors are red to some degree or another. Those are my initial thoughts on the matter. But, if it's what you really want to do, then my opinion cannot (and should not) trump that.  

[Race Bannon]

Dude, if anyone has a problem with that, then that's their problem.  It's your models, it's your hobby, so go for it and have fun ^_^

[Redfinger]

While it very much is a case of "your army, your prerogative", I think doing a straight cut & paste of the parent Chapter's colour scheme is a little bit lazy. By all means stick to the same colour palette and same overall look but even just a small deviation from the Ultramarine's scheme can help give your army it's own flavour. Hell, most Blood Angel successors are red to some degree or another. Those are my initial thoughts on the matter. But, if it's what you really want to do, then my opinion cannot (and should not) trump that.

This being the 3rd Soace Marine army I have painted, I would hardly call it lazy. I love the look of Ultramarines, I just don't car for the history/background to base my chapter off of.

 

A.

[Vodunius]

While it very much is a case of "your army, your prerogative", I think doing a straight cut & paste of the parent Chapter's colour scheme is a little bit lazy. By all means stick to the same colour palette and same overall look but even just a small deviation from the Ultramarine's scheme can help give your army it's own flavour. Hell, most Blood Angel successors are red to some degree or another. Those are my initial thoughts on the matter. But, if it's what you really want to do, then my opinion cannot (and should not) trump that.  

 

Two of the Blood Angels 2nd Founding Successors are pretty much cut & pasted! Dawn of War 1 accidentally used one* of them for the Blood Angels scheme and almost nobody noticed. 

 

* The vermilion coloured one, which GW usually refers to as the Angels Encarmine.. *grumble grumble*

[Sugarlessllama]

Well, I have a DIY chapter as well. And while I have a different scheme that the Ultramarines, I do make heavy use of the Ultramarines upgrade sprues and other bits. I figure since Blood Angels successor chapters use the wing and blood drop motif all over the place, than it wouldn't be unlikely that an Ultramarines Successor Chapter would have a lot of Omega motifs on their wargear.

[Beta galactosidase]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267011-litanies-of-hate-and-discontent-index-astartes-invectors/

[Redfinger]

Maybe I am going abou this the wrong way in a sense. Trying to fit a round peg in a round hole.

 

Maybe I just need to place my army in the timeline where current names Ultramarine models are not around, or serving as rank and file troops. Maybe Sicarius is a sgt in a squad?

 

How far back would I need to go on the timeline to make this happen? I am thinking Knights of the Old Republic kind of thing. I know that 30k is a big deal right now and I don't want to go that far back as I would like to use current models. I suppose I could do a"Ultramarine" Xbox game timeline and just call my chapter a "alternate timeline" chapter.

[Brother Tyler]

It would be easy to go back 1,000 (or more) years. Each of the named special characters could easily represent a similar hero from history.

 

Setting your army during some historical period is a time-honored way of representing a particular Chapter without using the current setting (characters, historical events, etc.). My Black Templars army, for example, will be set during the period immediately after Sigismund faces Abaddon (and presumably dies). My Fire Claws (you know them as the Relictors) army, meanwhile, is set shortly after the Chapter begins collecting Chaos relics, but before anyone else realizes it.

 

The Ultramarines are a great Chapter with a rich history, so you could reach back to almost any period for your Chapter's setting. The only thing to be aware of (if you care) is whether or not certain vehicles and wargear would be appropriate. The Land Raider Crusader, for example, wouldn't be appropriate if your army was set during a time period before the Jerulas Crusade (during which the Black Templars created the variant).

 

Some good settings/time perioids might be during the time of the Beast/Beheading or the Age of Apostasy. Or you might even look to the Scouring (not quite the Horus Heresy, but perhaps close enough). Going back to the Scouring might give you an excuse to use some 30K stuff, if that's what you want to do. You could even make it a transitional army, with a central core that is common, but with two variants - one using the Age of Darkness rules and armory and the other using the standard WH40K rules and armory.

[Redfinger]

It would be easy to go back 1,000 (or more) years. Each of the named special characters could easily represent a similar hero from history.

 

Setting your army during some historical period is a time-honored way of representing a particular Chapter without using the current setting (characters, historical events, etc.). My Black Templars army, for example, will be set during the period immediately after Sigismund faces Abaddon (and presumably dies). My Fire Claws (you know them as the Relictors) army, meanwhile, is set shortly after the Chapter begins collecting Chaos relics, but before anyone else realizes it.

 

The Ultramarines are a great Chapter with a rich history, so you could reach back to almost any period for your Chapter's setting. The only thing to be aware of (if you care) is whether or not certain vehicles and wargear would be appropriate. The Land Raider Crusader, for example, wouldn't be appropriate if your army was set during a time period before the Jerulas Crusade (during which the Black Templars created the variant).

 

Some good settings/time perioids might be during the time of the Beast/Beheading or the Age of Apostasy. Or you might even look to the Scouring (not quite the Horus Heresy, but perhaps close enough). Going back to the Scouring might give you an excuse to use some 30K stuff, if that's what you want to do. You could even make it a transitional army, with a central core that is common, but with two variants - one using the Age of Darkness rules and armory and the other using the standard WH40K rules and armory.

 

There is some great ideas there! I really like the idea of having a transitional army, moving from 30k to 40k. I already have a few Contemptors that I was not sure how I would work in to the army. Very cool.

[Redfinger]

Following up more on post #9 I have been reading about the evolution of power armor. It seems that mk VII was developed during the heresy but is the most mass produced armor of all the types. 

 

So I guess the question is, going this route, what should the predominant armor type be for a army transitioning between 30k and 40k? I am thinking plenty of mk IV's and VI's with a spattering of VII's, and variants earlier than IV. mk V seems a bit of an enigma to me, I suppose that would just be suits that were a mixture of mk III through IV? 

[Legatus]

What exactly is it that you dislike about the Ultramarines background? They have been my favourite Chapter since 2nd Edition, but I hated pretty much every new release since 4th Edition. I have allways used a generic Captain to lead my 2nd Company army, but then in 5th Edition GW informs me that the 2nd Company is apparently led by some guy called "Sicarius"*, and what particular equipment he uses, and that he is a total impetuous hot-head. Thanks, but no thanks. And I don't care much for Telion or Chronus either. As if they desperately needed a fourth, fifth and sixth special Character in 5th Edition.

 

But your games do not have to take place in 999.M41. Your next match against Orks could be in 132.M41, where none of the current special Characters were born yet. There are only certain canonical limitations if you want to play against Tyranids, Tau or Necrons. Against any other opponent the battle could have been from any point in the last ten thousand years. Once you have played around 100 games with the same force, all those battles could not realistically have taken place in one single year anyway, so they really represent small episodes in the history of that force, not a continual, canonical progression.

 

 

*Already in 4th Edition there was a model shown named as "Sicarius", but it had no rules and no background.

[Redfinger]

What exactly is it that you dislike about the Ultramarines background? They have been my favourite Chapter since 2nd Edition, but I hated pretty much every new release since 4th Edition. I have allways used a generic Captain to lead my 2nd Company army, but then in 5th Edition GW informs me that the 2nd Company is apparently led by some guy called "Sicarius"*, and what particular equipment he uses, and that he is a total impetuous hot-head. Thanks, but no thanks. And I don't care much for Telion or Chronus either. As if they desperately needed a fourth, fifth and sixth special Character in 5th Edition.

 

But your games do not have to take place in 999.M41. Your next match against Orks could be in 132.M41, where none of the current special Characters were born yet. There are only certain canonical limitations if you want to play against Tyranids, Tau or Necrons. Against any other opponent the battle could have been from any point in the last ten thousand years. Once you have played around 100 games with the same force, all those battles could not realistically have taken place in one single year anyway, so they really represent small episodes in the history of that force, not a continual, canonical progression.

 

 

*Already in 4th Edition there was a model shown named as "Sicarius", but it had no rules and no background.

You hit it mostly on the head. I don't like being liked into so charecters I don't particularly care for. Also, I like a lot of the 30k models and I think a mix of armor types is a more realistic presentation of a company.

[Marshal Mattias]

Have you considered just playing around with the colour palette a little? You can tweak the scheme a bit to make it almost the same, but invert some of the pattern. Maybe the iconic blue with gold trim, but the shoulder pads are white, with the omega in blue? (Just an example obviously, I'm sure you could create aomething better).

It would make it an obvious ultramarine successor, that uses the same colours and symbol, while letting you use all the bits you like.

[Halandaar]

Well given that you've said you aren't that keen on the Ultramarines background, I think doing a "post-Heresy-but-pre-M41" Ultramarines force is kind of counter to that. Sure, you'll be able to create your own characters and so forth, but you'll still be inheriting the UMs Crusade and Heresy background. This would also be the case if you opted for a 2nd Founding Chapter, i.e. a splinter of the original Legion. Those marines would also share the Ultramarines background because they were once Ultramarines themselves. If you want to shed that background altogether, you need to go for a chapter created from scratch using UM geneseed.

 

There's no reason you can't go for a scheme that's very similar to the Ultramarines but bear in mind from a practical point of view that they would need to be distinguishable from actual Ultras on the battlefield. Suggestions like white shoulder with blue U seem like a good compromise, or maybe inverting the whites and golds (so the trim on all your shoulders is white and veteran status is denoted with gold helmets).

 

Anyway, the main thing of course is, do what you want; it's your army!

[Redfinger]

Well given that you've said you aren't that keen on the Ultramarines background, I think doing a "post-Heresy-but-pre-M41" Ultramarines force is kind of counter to that. Sure, you'll be able to create your own characters and so forth, but you'll still be inheriting the UMs Crusade and Heresy background. This would also be the case if you opted for a 2nd Founding Chapter, i.e. a splinter of the original Legion. Those marines would also share the Ultramarines background because they were once Ultramarines themselves. If you want to shed that background altogether, you need to go for a chapter created from scratch using UM geneseed.

 

There's no reason you can't go for a scheme that's very similar to the Ultramarines but bear in mind from a practical point of view that they would need to be distinguishable from actual Ultras on the battlefield. Suggestions like white shoulder with blue U seem like a good compromise, or maybe inverting the whites and golds (so the trim on all your shoulders is white and veteran status is denoted with gold helmets)

 

 

Anyway, the main thing of course is, do what you want; it's your army!

It is not the history of the Ultra's it is being locked into the current story line. I really like the history of the Ultramarines, the roman influence is spot on. I want to make my own story. 10,000 years is a long time. There is bound to be some forgotten heros along the way.

[DaBoiKyknos]

Maybe interchange white and blue, and/or pick a brighter blue?

[DanforthLaertes]

You could very easily create a "splinter Chapter" from the Ultras. Let's spitball some fluff....

 

Ultramarines army is off prosecuting some war, under the leadership of a skilled and charismatic leader (Captain, Librarian, Chaplain). They are caught in a warp storm / webway trap / Necron mischief and flung across the galaxy tens of thousands of light years / hundreds or thousands of ACTUAL years. They are presumed lost, and are recorded in the annals of both the Imperium and the Ultramarines as "lost".

 

They spend decades / centuries fighting their way back from wherever they were, not knowing they have been declared dead. They modify their heraldy (perhaps the inverted omega with a piercing sword - that would look cool) to reflect some great act of valor or alliance (maybe they could ally with another loss group from another Chapter? Or recruit from a planet with that as a logo?) This time is where their divergent history and culture comes from.

 

By the time they get back in communication with Macragge, they original guys are generations dead, the company they were has been rebuilt in the Ultramarines, and they are - for all intents and purposes - a new Chapter. But they aren't, because they still see themselves as Ultramarines - although they have divergent customs. Discussion among the High Lords. Arguments on Macragge.

 

Final decision? The new Chapter is a new Chapter, a successor to the Ultramarines.

[Redfinger]

That is a fantastic idea. I think this could even justify keeping the original symbol and just change the chapter name.

 

However with the some 77 chapter masters that the Ultramarines have had, I think I will set my army post-heresy, but definitely not as late as the current time line.

 

 

 

You could very easily create a "splinter Chapter" from the Ultras. Let's spitball some fluff....

 

Ultramarines army is off prosecuting some war, under the leadership of a skilled and charismatic leader (Captain, Librarian, Chaplain). They are caught in a warp storm / webway trap / Necron mischief and flung across the galaxy tens of thousands of light years / hundreds or thousands of ACTUAL years. They are presumed lost, and are recorded in the annals of both the Imperium and the Ultramarines as "lost".

 

They spend decades / centuries fighting their way back from wherever they were, not knowing they have been declared dead. They modify their heraldy (perhaps the inverted omega with a piercing sword - that would look cool) to reflect some great act of valor or alliance (maybe they could ally with another loss group from another Chapter? Or recruit from a planet with that as a logo?) This time is where their divergent history and culture comes from.

 

By the time they get back in communication with Macragge, they original guys are generations dead, the company they were has been rebuilt in the Ultramarines, and they are - for all intents and purposes - a new Chapter. But they aren't, because they still see themselves as Ultramarines - although they have divergent customs. Discussion among the High Lords. Arguments on Macragge.

 

Final decision? The new Chapter is a new Chapter, a successor to the Ultramarines.