Grand Entrance of WS into Forge World HH

[b1soul]

So FW HH Book VI touches upon the WS, BA, and DA ... but those legions are still awaiting proper intros with all the legion & primarch fluff, special characters, etc.

 

So far we've only gotten a tiny taste.

 

Big Scars fan here ... obviously bummed they're the last in line.

 

Previously, I hoped they would make it into Inferno, as part of the aftermath, i.e. the second (admittedly smaller-scale) battle of Prospero between WS and DG

 

If that is ignored ... I think it would make sense to have a book dedicated to WS between the novel Scars and Path of Heaven ... or maybe have this book combined with Thramas?

 

Path of Heaven provides some hints about the pre-Siege battles involving the WS

 

 

 

- "We are the V Legion. We are the ordu of Jaghatai, the White Scars of Chogoris.

We are the oath-keepers.

A million souls had died under the sigil’s gaze in four long years of vicious fighting, each one dying with the gold and red of heaven reflected in their eyes. It had once been a joyous proclamation, an exotic statement of freedom amid the juggernaut of Imperial conformity. Now its aspect was bloody and furious, the mirror of the forgotten barbarian souls who etched it on stone, steel and hide.

Seven more warships emerged in the Lance of Heaven’s wake: the Namaan, Khamanog, Bloodline, Celestian, Fate’s Arrow, Umaal, Qo Ama – all variants of the Legiones Astartes battlecruiser, each heavily refitted, altered, patched-up, wounded, so much so that their original Martian classifications had ceased to deliver much meaningful information about their capabilities. The Umaal had once been the Tenacious, a Death Guard line-breaker. The Celestian had not changed name, but had belonged to a Word Bearers compliance formation. The white war-paint was thin on both those vessels, scraped over hulls that had once borne the liveries of different masters. The others had always been V Legion.

All seven ships stayed tight to the centrally placed Lance of Heaven, powering towards the Necklace at full tilt, their shields glittering. Escorts radiated out from the attack axis – destroyers, gun frigates, missile boats – eschewing protection for the punch of unleashed speed. Every movement was deliberate, taken at high velocity, mapped to deliver the most intense shock-hit of ordnance before a counter could be organised.

Four years ago, such tactics had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive. The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain.

But that was four years ago. Every Legion was a living thing, gifted with commanders of infinite subtlety and tactical understanding. The Death Guard refined their fleet strategy, bringing to bear greater firepower against the Khan’s wild riders. The Iron Warriors gave their fleet enough heavy physical anti-ship protection to turn their attackers into great lumps of plasma-laced slag. The Sons of Horus did what they always did, responding with such concentrated brutality and directed discipline that the two Legions, once close in understanding and sympathy, became blood-sworn in antipathy through accumulated atrocity."

 

- "I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

 

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them."

 

 

I think this would be more than enough for a whole book...what say you?

[Marshal Loss]

We'll have to see what battles are in Book VIII first before drawing conclusions. From what I read from BattleBunnies et al, the rough outline at this stage is Signus Prime for Blood Angels and an unknown conflict, possible Thramas, for the Dark Angels.

 

Normally I'd say that White Scars having their own book would be a little over the top - they're cool, but not important enough to be the sole focus of a black book as their greatest moment is yet to come - but it could be good to catch up and show the deterioration of the Emperor's Children (who haven't appeared since Book II and need the treatment the World Eaters have gotten). Rather than just the White Scars, it could be a book focused about them but also featuring other Loyalist forces desperately trying to get back to Terra in time in similar fashion. That way the White Scars get the attention they deserve, but fit into a wider conflict that will appeal to fans of many Legions.

 

If nothing else, the desperate fleet battle against the EC & DG would be awesome. The second battle of Prospero was far too small a scale to warrant inclusion (Primarch + bodyguard vs Primarch + bodyguard, with the DG fleet retreating as there was no point fighting and dying) but the flight to Terra and the battle for the Keystone would make worthy inclusions in any FW book.

 

It is a crying shame they're going to be the only Legion left alone without coverage though.

[b1soul]

As you say, the book wouldn't focus solely on the WS

 

It would have WS, DG, EC, SoH ... how about post-Prospero SW and AL as well?

 

Are you saying it's confirmes that WS won't be covered until the siege?

[Marshal Loss]

SoH don't even show up in PoH, save for Mortarion & Horus having a chat.

 

No, I'm not saying they won't be covered until the Siege. I just said that's their finest hour.

 

So far, we have

 

Prospero 2.0 (minor battle)

White Scars vs. Alpha Legion

White Scars doing minor raids against various Traitor Legions

White Scars at the Keystone vs EC

White Scars vs EC & DG as they attempt to jump to Terra

 

I'd favour the Keystone & their final jump over the other more minor events. On the chart that FW has at each event showing the timeline, which battles show up on it involving the WS?

[b1soul]

I know SoH don't show up in PoH...the idea is that the WS wage a 4-year campaign against the Traitors between Scars and PoH. I think that's sufficient for a book...though at the end of the day, what matters is FW's decision.

 

The 4-year campaign is not "minor raids". The WS are reduced to less than half their original size by the end of PoH.

[Marshal Loss]

Their hit and run campaign is just that - a hit and run campaign. It's a drawn out campaign that dishes out losses over a long period of time,any singular Legion is going to lose great numbers from attrition over a period of years, and does not consist of any centrepiece battles detailed in the novels. They are relatively minor in terms of importance. And you keep mentioning SoH yet not IW etc, who are also mentioned in the list of Legions hit by the White Scars as part of their raiding season.

 

Additionally, I said they were minor in comparison versus the spectacles we saw in the novel. Don't take offence over that. Consult the FW timeline, and the up to date timeline in Book VI, and the blurb that details what the WS are doing during this time - this is the best clue for what the WS will get. In Book VI, you would have seen that the White Scars only appear on the main timeline for their interaction with Russ after Prospero, and their blurb on page 20 is devoid of any named conflicts thus far, although it was published prior to Path of Heaven.

 

I don't think the raids on their own are important enough. As you said, we'll see what FW decides on.

 

It is only at the end of their 4 year campaign that the White Scars become important - because by then, they are the only force left blocking the Warmaster's advance to Terra. That is why I believe any book should focus on. If they do the earlier stuff, it doesn't warrant a book on its own.

[b1soul]

Some of those hit and run engagements sound like pretty major battles...

 

"Four years ago, such tactics had reaped ruin on the Warmaster’s advance. Accustomed only to the ragged assaults of Isstvan’s hollowed-out dupes, the traitors had taken time to adjust to the Khan’s more orchestrated counter-offensive. The Death Guard had suffered particularly badly, unable to match the voidmastery of the V Legion, but all of them – Fulgrim’s chem-addicted sensation-seekers, Perturabo’s obsessive engineers, Mortarion’s grim foot-sloggers, even the Sons of Horus themselves – had taken their share of pain."

 

"I would have driven them out of that place. I would have seen them run, just as we made them run on Peressimar.

 

That had been two years ago now. A great victory, driven by surprise and speed, perhaps the last of them."

 

I agree with you that Prospero R2 is relatively minor...but the above? No, can't agree with you there. These are not minor skirmishes...and even if individually they are minor, it's quite obvious that in the aggregate, they are "important"

 

What's more...the WS find it harder and harder to run after hitting, as their opponents make adjustments. Very likely the WS are forced into several pitched battles not favouring their typical style.

 

What makes you think that this 4-year campaign is insignificant compared to Thramas or Phall or even Signus?

 

Don't really get your logic. The WS expend roughly two thirds of their resources to slow down multiple Traitor legions, taking a beating in the process. That doesn't warrant a book or at least half a book?

 

EDIT: I honestly think much of Conquest and Retribution are rather minor compared to the Scars' 4-year campaign to slow down Horus' advance.

 

Conquest is essentially a collection of Shattered Legion shenanigans and Retribution covers stuff like the Nemean and his Black Shields, Terran Raven Guard in the Nostramo sector...all quite peripheral to the HH

[Marshal Loss]

I don't think the raids on their own are important enough. As you said, we'll see what FW decides on.

It is only at the end of their 4 year campaign that the White Scars become important - because by then, they are the only force left blocking the Warmaster's advance to Terra. That is why I believe any book should focus on. If they do the earlier stuff, it doesn't warrant a book on its own.

I would not consider a raiding campaign, no matter the losses, as significant as something like Signus. This is a character-altering milestone event for the Legion involved.

There, simplified in bold. I would rather any book focus on the end of that campaign, which is exactly what Path of Heaven does, because that is when they are at their most important, when their struggle is at its most poignant and desperate. When the V Legion alone stands between the Warmaster and his ultimate goal. That is my logic. You, as a clear WS fan, want as much coverage as possible. That's fine, but not all Legion's conflicts are equal in weight when it comes to the Heresy in terms of importance - that's not bias, that's reality. We'll see how FW redresses it over time. I hope you realise where my opinion is coming from without taking offence to the fact that it doesn't place your favourite Legion in prime position..

Anyway, this is derailing the thread - if you want to continue this line, PM me. I'll now respectfully agree to disagree and leave the topic be.

[b1soul]

.Now I'll respectfully agree to disagree and leave you to your wishlisting. :)

Yes, suppose so. Though again, I would like to express my respectful disagreement with your assumptions below...

 

"Only the final battle in the Scars' 4-year campaign is important"

 

The entire campaign significantly slows down and diverts the attention of multiple Traitor legions. Why only the final battle is important...is frankly beyond me and known only to you.

 

You could say that 1 battle is the most important out of 100...but that doesn't mean this 1 battle outweighs the other 99. Strange logic.

 

"The entire campaign consists of minor raids"

 

Frankly, I don't know what your definition of mere "raiding" is or what evidence there is that the Scars, over the course of 4 years, only engage in minor raids (see my previous post).

 

I think if the Scars only engage in inconsequential "raiding", Horus wouldn't be so concerned...

 

"I come to you,’ said Horus, softly, ‘because I have no others. The Khan remains on my flank, his Legion intact, his fury undimmed. The storms keep him hemmed, but he will find a way to break them. He cannot be suffered to live – you know this. Once Jaghatai has been destroyed, the last barrier falls.’

 

Horus loomed over his hunched brother and grabbed him by the neck, one claw on either side.

‘And then,’ he breathed, drawing Mortarion’s scabrous face close to his own, ‘it shall be we two at the spearhead. You have kept your Legion pure. You do not disappoint. We approach the nexus now.’

 

Mortarion’s suspicion never left him."

 

The 4-year campaign is not legion defining"

 

Eh? Other than the Siege, I can't think of anything more legion defining in relation to the WS

 

The Scars lose half their legion over 4 years. It changes the whole character of their legion...no longer the joyful, carefree "laughing killers". They've been almost utterly ground down by the might of multiple enemy legions.

 

Again, I would argue that Thramas is much less important to the DA in comparison. Doesn't change DA character...much lighter casualties.

[Marshal Loss]

You draw conclusions from my words that are simply not there. Not to mention your emphasis on lines that are not using the wording I used. If you quote somebody, actually quote what they said instead of retyping it. If you don't see the problem there, I don't know what to say to you. Also, learn the difference between an assumption and an opinion.

 

I expect my posts will be edited/censored by moderators for anger, and fair enough, but for the record I take great issue with misquoting. Childish and helps nobody.

 

 

"I come to you,’ said Horus, softly, ‘because I have no others. The Khan remains on my flank, his Legion intact, his fury undimmed. The storms keep him hemmed, but he will find a way to break them. He cannot be suffered to live – you know this. Once Jaghatai has been destroyed, the last barrier falls.’

 

 

Exactly what I was saying. This is at the end of his raiding campaign that Horus says that. I am not disputing that his Legion did significant damage. The Heresy is a vast series of events of critical importance, with some weighing heavier than others. Saying something is minor when we're talking about a galaxy spanning war is a matter of opinion; don't put words into my mouth. I am placing a heavier emphasis on the poignant nature of the Khan and his Legion being the last loyal forces standing between the Warmaster and Terra. Far more heroic, and far more important.

 

The White Scars character is changed by the end. That is exactly why Path of Heaven picks up there from Scars, and why I believe a FW black book could tell the tale of the happy go lucky White Scars in their detailed information section, and show them at the end of their grinding campaign for the narrative of the actual book. This is my opinion.

 

Enjoy.

[Ancient Terror]

My personal opinion is that, if the Scars will be the only legion left without characters etc. after Signus, it would make sense to make them front runners in a book featuring updated traitors and perhaps some generic traitor options like Dark Mechanicum.

 

The main narrative can be about the Scars' isolated attempt to delay the traitors, with cameos by smaller loyalist forces - with the traitors showing their deepening corruption and collusion with Chaos.

[b1soul]

Good heavens, you're like a dog with a bone. Never tell a fanboy you disagree with their opinion. You draw conclusions from my words that are simply not there. Not to mention your emphasis on lines that are not using the wording I used. If you quote somebody, actually quote what they said instead of retyping it. If you don't see the problem there, I don't know what to say to you.

1. I'd appreciate not being called "a dog with a bone" or being dismissed as a "fanboy".

 

It's funny that despite your exasperation, here you are still replying to me. Seems like there are two dogs not letting go of this bone.

 

2. Perhaps you don't know what to say to me because at least some of my points are valid? Feel free to disagree but I expect something better articulated than "I don't know what to say to you".

 

I'm fine with your disagreement. Are you OK with my respectful disagreement? Or do you have to get testy?

 

Exactly what I was saying. This is at the end of his raiding campaign that Horus says that.

1. The text never indicates that Jaghatai's campaign has been limited to nothing but raids. This is an assumption you keep making without basis.

 

2. In that dialogue, Horus implicitly acknowledges two dangers...of having Jaghatai at his flank, bleeding and diverting his strength, and of having Jaghatai survive to reach and reinforce Terra.

 

In response to the WS attacks, the Traitor legions have been converging on the WS to destroy them.

 

None of this diminishes the military significance of the WS campaign prior to the final battle.

 

Yes...the final battle is the most poignant/dramatic, and if you think that makes only the final battle worthy of inclusion in a FW HH book...that is your opinion and I respect it. Indeed, I agree that it is the emotional climax.

 

If you think the prior campaign should not be included because it is insignificant relative to the final battle from a military perspective...then I disagree.

 

I am not disputing that his Legion did significant damage. The Heresy is a vast series of events of critical importance, with some weighing heavier than others. Saying something is minor when we're talking about a galaxy spanning war is a matter of opinion; don't put words into my mouth.

What words did I put there? Please do tell.

 

You placed a lot of emphasis that the WS campaign is limited to nothing but "raiding". I did not make up these words.

 

I questioned 1. your assumption that the WS have only engaged in "raiding" (any evidence of this?) and 2. your definition of what "raiding" means (and why you seem to regard "raiding" as less militarily significant)

 

I agree with you that "importance" is largely subjective...but "importance" is still amenable to reasonable justification. I fail to see what makes the WS campaign less important than Thramas from a military perspective. They are similar...drawn-out campaigns punctuated by climactic finales.

 

Should FW only cover the final battle of Thramas as well, in your opinion?

 

I am placing a heavier emphasis on the poignant nature of the Khan and his Legion being the last loyal forces standing between the Warmaster and Terra. Far more heroic, and far more important. The White Scars character is changed by the end.

The Scars' character is changed throughout the course of 4 years of brutal campaigning. The final battle is the emotional climax of the campaign...I agree with that.

 

Other than your personal preference, I just don't get why you favor Thramas over this. Hope you can handle some civil disagreement. Enjoy

[Runefyre]

I could see a black book featuring sort of a "shadow war" part 2 describing the attempts by various forces to slow down the Warmaster's advance. Giving expanded rules for shattered Wolves, shattered Scars, plus updated rules for most of the traitor legions. I would also like to see the Dark Angel's scattered command posts get some attention. But the Scars would not be the star of the show, that time will come after the events of PoH and when the siege arrives. That's at least two books (3 if you count retrubution) for the Scars to potentially be in. Though personally I hope the Scars campaign against the Warmaster is retconned to be alot shorter than 4 years, I refuse to believe that the Scars are that superior to every other legion that they can stand up (even indirectly) to such an unstoppable tide. How is one legion waling against such insurmountable numerical differences even a consideration for Horus? I can already hear the WS supremecists winding up.

 

Just my personal speculation/wishlisting.

[b1soul]

I could see a black book featuring sort of a "shadow war" part 2 describing the attempts by various forces to slow down the Warmaster's advance. Giving expanded rules for shattered Wolves, shattered Scars, plus updated rules for most of the traitor legions. I would also like to see the Dark Angel's scattered command posts get some attention. But the Scars would not be the star of the show, that time will come after the events of PoH and when the siege arrives. That's at least two books (3 if you count retrubution) for the Scars to potentially be in. Though personally I hope the Scars campaign against the Warmaster is retconned to be alot shorter than 4 years, I refuse to believe that the Scars are that superior to every other legion that they can stand up (even indirectly) to such an unstoppable tide. How is one legion waling against such insurmountable numerical differences even a consideration for Horus? I can already hear the WS supremecists winding up.

 

Just my personal speculation/wishlisting.

I think a Shadow Wars Part 2 would make a lot of sense.

 

The WS don't necessarily have to be the "stars" but I do think they deserve a major role...not just a bit part.

 

As for how the Scars survive for 4 years...they're picking their battles and being evasive/cowardly the rest of the time.

 

Even so, the Traitors have adapted and are converging upon them. They are certainly doomed without Dark Glass.

[Marshal Rohr]

It'll be chondax/alaaxes. Scars, Wolves, Alphas.

[b1soul]

It'll be chondax/alaaxes. Scars, Wolves, Alphas.

I'd love to see that...but Chondax is only WS vs. Orks, no?

 

Would FW do HH Orks? I kinda doubt it

[Marshal Rohr]

 

It'll be chondax/alaaxes. Scars, Wolves, Alphas.

I'd love to see that...but Chondax is only WS vs. Orks, no?

 

Would FW do HH Orks? I kinda doubt it

I only know of their initial involvement in the Heresy being called Chondax because I only have the old Collected Visions and IIRC it was something about an ambush but I may be getting confused :( for some reason I just remember Alaaxes being related to the WS release. It would actually be a great opportunity for them to update Zone Mortalis for 8th edition and drop all the WS fluff at the same time.

 

Everyone saying WS may not warrant their own book: maybe, but I doubt it'll just be white scars. They could do an odyssey like book that also updates some of the original traitors to their more corrupt army lists.

[b1soul]

I only know of their initial involvement in the Heresy being called Chondax because I only have the old Collected Visions and IIRC it was something about an ambush but I may be getting confused :( for some reason I just remember Alaaxes being related to the WS release.

Current fluff of Chondax is WS vs. Orks and Alaxxes is SW vs. AL...so sadly, looks like WS won't be getting any attention in relation to those events

 

Everyone saying WS may not warrant their own book: maybe, but I doubt it'll just be white scars. They could do an odyssey like book that also updates some of the original traitors to their more corrupt army lists

I think it would be fine to have WS as the only loyalist legion in a book

 

It would be exceedingly odd for a book to literally feature only them

 

I think WS vs. updated DG, EC, IW, and SoH would be fine

 

The WS would enjoy a bit of early success before starting to get pummeled

[Marshal Rohr]

I hope we get lucky and they do an Extermination style book Signus, Thramas, Scars all at the same time.

 

I also hope we get lucky and they just bite the damn bullet to bring on enough people for a spring and winter release every year. One book a year is too god :cuss slow.

[Runefyre]

I hope we get lucky and they do an Extermination style book Signus, Thramas, Scars all at the same time.

I also hope we get lucky and they just bite the damn bullet to bring on enough people for a spring and winter release every year. One book a year is too god slow.

Especially for those of us who's legion shined the most during the Scouring. it's gonna be alotta waiting.

[b1soul]

I hope we get lucky and they do an Extermination style book Signus, Thramas, Scars all at the same time.

That would be fantastic

 

Signus means 30K daemon rules, right?

 

Especially for those of us who's legion shined the most during the Scouring. :cuss it's gonna be alotta waiting.

Inferno is gonna lavish so much love upon the VIth...makes me jealous

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the non-legion army lists will all come with their 'most famous' encounters. Talons of the Emperor with Inferno, Daemons with Signus, Army with Tallarn (which is crap, I need that list now not in four :cuss years).

 

Edit: Also Skitarii and Secutarii with mars. Having seen how FW is cool with giving the custodes vehicles I'm stoked at the possibility of skitarii Leman Russ and APCS

[Sandlemad]

 

Everyone saying WS may not warrant their own book: maybe, but I doubt it'll just be white scars. They could do an odyssey like book that also updates some of the original traitors to their more corrupt army lists

I think it would be fine to have WS as the only loyalist legion in a book

 

It would be exceedingly odd for a book to literally feature only them

 

I think WS vs. updated DG, EC, IW, and SoH would be fine

 

The WS would enjoy a bit of early success before starting to get pummeled

 

I like the Retribution-style book idea. Glimpses, set-piece battles and vignettes from the Scars' four years of raiding, as the noose gradually tightens. Include Alaxxes at the start and you get some SW and DA as other loyalist legions, vs updated Alpha Legion. Get a nice spread of small-scale operations and massive battles like at Kallium Gate.

 

Or! Spend a chunk of the book looking at the wide-ranging missions of the Sagyar Mazan and you have room to follow up on some of the shattered legion forces that aren't part of Meduson's coalition.

 

Either way it makes for a black book with more appeal than 'just' a WS book but they still get their fair share.

[b1soul]

I wouldn't mind...

 

1. Alaxxes - SW vs. AL ... (DA at the end)

 

2. Prospero R2 - WS schism and WS vs. DG

 

3. The Sagyar Mazan mission on Dwell (i.e. Little Horus story with Aximand, Bion Henricos, and Hibou Khan)

 

4. Three major battles during the 4 year campaign...

 

A. Earlier Battle

B. Peressimar

C. Kallium Gate

[Runefyre]

I wouldn't mind...

 

1. Alaxxes - SW vs. AL ... (DA at the end)

Maybe FW would be willing to fix the atrocity that is Yarant/Alaaxes....