Inferno in December?

[m_r_parker]

Honestly I'm not surprised that it's been included in White Dwarf and the timeframe for release is no longer valid.

Earlier in the year I was at the FW Open Day (I think it was the FW Open Day, maybe) and the Specialist Games boys had a table and were showcasing Blood Bowl. It looked pretty much finished, the sprues were done as were the board and counters, it looked like it was ready to ship. I asked what the timeframe was, and was genuinely surprised when they said it would be the end of the year, around six months. When I asked why the reply was it was being released in stores, and the logistics around getting the product to all GW stores worldwide required more time than the standard FW ranges (which can only be purchased online, with the exception of Warhammer World) and that was the primary reason for the long timeline to release.
I imagine White Dwarf is broadly the same - they have to have it prepared well in advance so that it can be published and distributed globally for release in stores. That means the articles have to be planned out months before the models hit the shelves, and doesn't handle any last minute changes in timelines very well. As has been said above, this has happened before with the Mastadon, and no doubt this will happen again.

Now, we have to take with a bit of patience that ForgeWorld operate differently than GW in the main. They have a more agile development philosophy, and being open to everyone about what is in the pipeline can backfire when project timelines have to slip, Inferno probably being the figurehead of this. The only good thing about GW's previous closed philosophy around upcoming releases is that we never got into a "It's been delayed again, why can't they release it already?" discussion from the fanbase, as we never knew what was more than 1-2 weeks out.

Ultimately this is all a moot point - we all knew that it wasn't going to be this side of Christmas, so it's not a surprise to me that it isn't. Does it look bad for the company, yeah, but this is how it is. I would rather this happen every now and again than have either FW sit on books / models for months to tie in with White Dwarf, or have FW stop being as open as they have been in keeping us up to date with what they're working on.

Oh, and a final note - can we all please check our language and keep profanity out of the thread / B&C. Inferno is a topic that on the whole seems to generate a lot of passionate discussion, but can we keep it clean and avoid swearing where possible.

[b1soul]

 

The most galling issue is the apparent lack of professionalism. If something isn't done its not done, however hype is fleeting and its cross market competitive, releasing BoP and Inferno 3 months a part for general release is disappointing to me as a stock holder and a hobbyist.

 

 

No, a lack of professionalism would be if FW were forced to stick to their original release date and Inferno turned out to be a hastily finished, half-baked pile of :cuss .

 

Can you imagine the combined rage of all the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves/Adeptus Custodes/Sisters of Silence players???

1. Delivering a quality product by the planned deadline is professional

 

2. Delaying the product, i.e. missing the plannned deadline, is unprofessional

 

3. Releasing a sloppy, half-finished product to "meet" the deadline is idiotic. In essence, you're still missing the deadline because the deadline is for delivering a good, finished product

[Memento Of Prospero]

The most galling issue is the apparent lack of professionalism. If something isn't done its not done, however hype is fleeting and its cross market competitive, releasing BoP and Inferno 3 months a part for general release is disappointing to me as a stock holder and a hobbyist.

No, a lack of professionalism would be if FW were forced to stick to their original release date and Inferno turned out to be a hastily finished, half-baked pile of .

Can you imagine the combined rage of all the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves/Adeptus Custodes/Sisters of Silence players???

1. Delivering a quality product by the planned deadline is professional

2. Delaying the product, i.e. missing the plannned deadline, is unprofessional

3. Releasing a sloppy, half-finished product to "meet" the deadline is idiotic. In essence, you're still missing the deadline because the deadline is for delivering a good, finished product

Number 2 is not true, as long as there is no recurring history. I commend a company who realized way ahead of release that the product will not be up to their standard and choice to deliver the product at a later time.

[Black Cohort]

people can't be perfect all the time, no one is happy when projects slip, but it happens.  GW is hardly the first publicly traded company to have a product be delayed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It keeps the game balanced though which is a good thing.

[Anvilarium]

1. Delivering a quality product by the planned deadline is professional

 

2. Delaying the product, i.e. missing the plannned deadline, is unprofessional

 

3. Releasing a sloppy, half-finished product to "meet" the deadline is idiotic. In essence, you're still missing the deadline because the deadline is for delivering a good, finished product

 

 

Thanks for perfectly illustrating my point.

 

If option 1 is absolutely not an available option, (which it isn't), then would you prefer option 2, or option 3?

The model of keeping the rules confined to big books is probably what is frustrating most people. If they would just release the rules in red books ahead of time it would be easier to be patient for the fluff.

 

Unfortunately, it's not the fluff that has caused all these delays. It's all the problems FW has had trying to make the Thousand Sons army rules work without being overpowered.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

1. Delivering a quality product by the planned deadline is professional

 

2. Delaying the product, i.e. missing the plannned deadline, is unprofessional

 

3. Releasing a sloppy, half-finished product to "meet" the deadline is idiotic. In essence, you're still missing the deadline because the deadline is for delivering a good, finished product

 

Thanks for perfectly illustrating my point.

 

If option 1 is absolutely not an available option, (which it isn't), then would you prefer option 2, or option 3?

The model of keeping the rules confined to big books is probably what is frustrating most people. If they would just release the rules in red books ahead of time it would be easier to be patient for the fluff.

Unfortunately, it's not the fluff that has caused all these delays. It's all the problems FW has had trying to make the Thousand Sons army rules work without being overpowered.

I meant this delay from December to Feb. The rules are completed now in digital form. They should release it.

[b1soul]

I commend a company who realized way ahead of release that the product will not be up to their standard and choice to deliver the product at a later time.

I commend a company for meeting their own deadline.

 

You're commending damage control.

 

Thanks for perfectly illustrating my point.

If option 1 is absolutely not an available option, (which it isn't), then would you prefer option 2, or option 3?

You're proving my point: 1 is better than 2 is better than 3

 

1 is delivering what you set out to do

2 is not being an idiot

3 is being an idiot

 

Obviously, anyone would prefer 2 to 3...but that doesn't make 2 commendable.

 

You're praising them for not being total idiots

[m_r_parker]

Apologies to all ahead of time, as I already know what I'm about to say may / will come across as being aggressive. I'll try my all to have this not be the case, but please when reading this don't assume I'm here to pick a fight or attacking anyones viewpoints. It's just there are things being said which can either be interpreted as naive, simplistic, and not accurately representative of the situation, and I just have to respond to them. I'm not here to pick a fight (I've now written that twice, that's not a good sign..) and you may or may not agree with what I have to say, but everyone's entitled to their opinions even if you don't agree with them. However, I will try and get my opinion across without it being aggressive.

 

I've said it before in other threads (about this book now that I think about it) that what FW / GW are doing on the whole is a creative process, and by it's very nature can be non-linear in terms of effort to get a particular result. Having worked in project-based activities for 12 years now, I've experienced first hand how variables can cause massive issues during a well understood and linear process (i.e. certain measured activities and process can be defined as requiring a prescribed amount of time and effort), and attempting to deal with anything less process-driven and more creative / iterative can be an absolute nightmare to estimate and deliver. Factor in additional complexities around resource workload management (and not having the correct people available at the right time to complete their activities due to external events), changing landscape and scope of work (I'm sure that when Inferno was first mentioned years ago, there might not have been Prospero on the cards for GW, and the implications of that release may have had huge repercussions on what FW were intending) and juggling multiple workstreams (They're clearly not just working on one book at a time, and have multiple things running concurrently), then projects like this are a constant battle where small stones can cause big ripples across the pond.

 

'Damage Control' is a lot of what Project Management is - the initial planning of a project is a very small part compared with the actual running of a project. No matter how hard you try and track risks there will simply become a time where something turns into an issue (often outside of your control) and you have to respond to it in order to keep the project to meet it's deliverables. Note I said deliverables, not deadlines. This differs across different projects, and a lot of times there are hard deadlines that cannot be missed for various reasons, but for the majority of times in my experience the actual outcome is more important than the timeframe.

 

Simply stating that 'Delivering a quality product by the planned deadline is professional' is grossly over-simplifying this. There are times where this cannot be met, but to then call the people working on the project either Unprofessional or Idiotic is frankly hugely insulting to those who are striving to get the best product out to us. 

 

I've been in scenarios where my superiors have found that workstreams are slipping and have decided that it's better to reduce the quality of the delivered product in order to meet the timeframe of the original plan, than to actually deliver what they ought to deliver and accept that it will come in later than expected. More often than not the decision to meet the original plans timeframe has caused massive problems further down the line than times where accepting a delayed product has happened. Stakeholders start to question the quality of the product, challenges start being raised as to whether the product meets it's requirements (which then goes back to Statements of Work, and can quickly escalate into legal discussions), and then usually a game of Blame Ping-Pong starts as to who's fault it is that the  product isn't what it should be. Taking the hit and delaying is the much better option, it's not ideal - but you're in a situation where the ideal is no longer an option.

 

One of the facts that we cannot deny is that we truly don't know what is going on behind the scenes at FW, and the reasoning behind the various delays since it was first announced year ago. Likely we never will get the full story behind it either, because it's never a good idea to air dirty laundry out in the public. I choose to believe the majority of what the FW guys are telling us, with the caveat that it's never going to be the full story. When it comes down to the Legions these two are always going to be the ones that will have the most problems, and there are other threads which go into this. The setting that it is in is one of the most iconic of the entire HH era (I'd say that only the Siege of Terra tops Prospero), and there's no doubt been a lot of learning done in the creation of the other books that factor in what they're trying to achieve too. There is a staggering amount of expectation levelled at this release due to all of this, and frankly if it isn't perfect then the FW guys will forever be receiving criticism from the community about it. They are literally in the 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' boat here.

 

The fact of the matter is that a lot of this could be avoided, and not by 'delivering what you set out to do'. The reason why there is so much expectation around this book, and why there is so much discussion around it's delay, is because the FW guys actually engage with us on what they're working on at a relatively early stage. Whenever there's Open Day's, Weekenders, or just random stuff that appears through various chats with designers and authors, we get a good insight into what they're up to and what they're currently working on. They could choose to simply adopt a style more in line with GW and only talk about things that are already completed and due for release in the very near future, and then we'll never know where the delays are because we'll never have anything to base timelines on. I wouldn't want to see FW adopt that policy, because during the past few years where GW have been incredibly tight lipped about anything further out than next weeks releases, FW have been the part of 'hobby' that gets me excited because I have things to look forward to rather than simply seeing something random come up for pre-order. I like knowing where they're planning to take the books, and seeing early iterations of models, even hearing things like the production issues around the Mastadon - all of that keeps me engaged. 

 

On a personal level, I'm happy with the delay. Not because I want to wind people up, or because I dislike the idea / Legions, nor because I want focus to be shifted elsewhere. I'm happy because the FW team are literally trying to make this as good as it can be, and not just bowing to pressure and releasing something as a 'That'll do' to appease the community. Yeah, they could have very easily put out rules that aren't what they should be, cut down the development of the story and campaign sections, not work too much on the image of the factions represented with the book, and get it out the door as a subpar product. Having been to events and spoken to the majority of the design team at one time or another, there is a huge amount of passion in them to make sure that what they produce does justice to the subject matter, and they want this to be as good as it can be rather than it simply being a job that they just do in order to pay the bills. I've already said I expect it to be the best of the books in the series, and not because I have any investment in the factions being represented, but because a lot of the groundwork around 30k has been developed in the earlier books in the series (particularly 1 through 4) and this leaves them to focus on the really exciting things around the system and setting. 

 

What gets me especially wrangled is when I see some of the comments coming back from the community around this release, when undoubtedly we've not got even half of the story around why the situation is as it is. It's ranged from lack of professionalism, prioritising other products over this book, considering this book to be a side-project, to just accusations that the FW guys actively dislike the Space Wolves Legion and don't want to do them. We don't know everything that is going on behind the scenes, but I'd bet money on the fact is not any of those things I just mentioned. There's been a lot of 'Well they said it would be done by now and it's not, that's not acceptable that it isn't', and while it may be disappointing that it's not to simply point back to a timeline from a while back and hold them to it is unreasonable without knowing the full story. 

 

I'm sure a lot of people think of me as being a pro-FW cheerleader that can do no wrong in my eyes, and that simply isn't true. I will say that I like the vast majority of what they do, but there are still things that either baffle me or just strike me as not being right. I can't say that I understand exactly what it is that they do in there, but I do know that it's definitely something I can't do - and the fact that the majority of times they hit it out of the park amazes me. It's very easy to point fingers and have a say from behind a keyboard, and I don't want for the people who are pouring their souls into this to be ostracised by people who don't have the whole picture and are judging them based on a very narrow set of experiences. I love 30k in a way that I used to love 40k and Fantasy years ago, and I have a massive amount of respect for the people who are taking this forward that obviously share the same love of the background / setting / hobby as I do, and allow me to continue with this hobby. There are obviously some very passionate people at the helm of this who have a very specific direction that resonates well with me, and seeing their work get described as 'unprofessional' does not sit well with me at all. I can almost see myself as being on their design team, literally giving this series my all, and seeing some of the stuff being written by people that don't know you and just thinking 'Screw it! Just get it out there and lets move onto something different.', and having it erode away any desire to meet those high expectations I set myself. That probably says more about me than anything else, but behind a corporate entity such as GW there are actual people who's work is being undermined rather than a generic corporate blob.

 

 

This is already far too long, and far too personal on my front, so I really need to stop now. It just drives me nuts when people assume things like this are a 'crank the handle' approach and that you get a certain amount of output from a measured amount of time and effort, and make assumptions when nobody on here has the full story or is ever likely to get the full story. I can already see this post getting chopped / edited / deleted, but I'll see where this goes...

[Commissar Ibram Gaunt]

Very well said m_r_parker. From my experience working in a creative industry is that many people expect everything to be done in extremely short turn around times yet still be to a high standard. They also want to pay barely anything for it because you are "just making stuff in photoshop".

 

Average people as a whole tend to have no idea of the process or expertise that go into these things and expect them to be churned out with no delays. As well as meet all their specific needs from a product, like it should be taylor made for them.

 

It is kind of mind boggling amd many people have no respecr for the people making these things which can be quite disheartening.

 

This has gotten far worse since we have gotten more and more digital as any gimp with photoshop (insert any other product here) now thinks they are a designer and anyone with access to a platform such as forums/socual media thinks they are an expert who's opinion is like gold.

[Marshal Rohr]

Very well said m_r_parker. From my experience working in a creative industry is that many people expect everything to be done in extremely short turn around times yet still be to a high standard. They also want to pay barely anything for it because you are "just making stuff in photoshop".

Average people as a whole tend to have no idea of the process or expertise that go into these things and expect them to be churned out with no delays. As well as meet all their specific needs from a product, like it should be taylor made for them.

It is kind of mind boggling amd many people have no respecr for the people making these things which can be quite disheartening.

This has gotten far worse since we have gotten more and more digital as any gimp with photoshop (insert any other product here) now thinks they are a designer and anyone with access to a platform such as forums/socual media thinks they are an expert who's opinion is like gold.

IHF puts out FW quality stuff like that all the time and is training for it in school, so be careful who you decide to :cuss on. It's incredibly silly to say that just because some guy cuts and pastes FW templates into a new picture that everyone posting new artwork is 'some gimp with photoshop'.

[Commissar Ibram Gaunt]

 

Very well said m_r_parker. From my experience working in a creative industry is that many people expect everything to be done in extremely short turn around times yet still be to a high standard. They also want to pay barely anything for it because you are "just making stuff in photoshop".

Average people as a whole tend to have no idea of the process or expertise that go into these things and expect them to be churned out with no delays. As well as meet all their specific needs from a product, like it should be taylor made for them.

It is kind of mind boggling amd many people have no respecr for the people making these things which can be quite disheartening.

This has gotten far worse since we have gotten more and more digital as any gimp with photoshop (insert any other product here) now thinks they are a designer and anyone with access to a platform such as forums/socual media thinks they are an expert who's opinion is like gold.

IHF puts out FW quality stuff like that all the time and is training for it in school, so be careful who you decide to :cuss on. It's incredibly silly to say that just because some guy cuts and pastes FW templates into a new picture that everyone posting new artwork is 'some gimp with photoshop'.

Calm down this was directed at no one in particular or even any one here and certainly not IHF as he clearly knows what he is doing. Just a general observation from years of experience as to how creative fields are viewed and treated.

 

No where did I cut down people creating fan art, as that is a great part of the hobby for both the people that create it and for us to view it. I was more directing towards saying that many companies/people won't pay designers properly because thye see it as an easy job. The industry as a whole is under valued and under payed.

 

Creative processes take time and you cannot just pump them out to templates.

[Theredknight]

All is dust.

It will happen exactly when the great changer of ways has planned it too.

[Gorgoff]

Abso:cussinglotely

[SW1]

Doh ... And there was me looking forward to the book for my birthday. :(

 

Just hoping they knock this one out of the park when it finally becomes available!!! :devil: