Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Marshal Rohr]

The book is short on chaos lore beyond expanding the origins and importance of Drach'nyen and turning it up to 11.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

He didn't love Horus so much he held back all the way in the end. Dam that obvious loving hatred.

[caladancid]

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:28 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

He's definitely not going to love Horus so much he has a problem killing him, and if you can't see why that is a good thing, then you are never going to like the setting. The Emperor and Horus fighting each other through tears is frankly so unrealistic and impossible it was the one thing that didn't fit in with the rest of Collected Visions. And here is why:

First, Horus betrayed the Emperor. On a personal level, having the emperor not want to kill him because he loves him makes the Emperor a weaker character. He's a the whiny ex boyfriend who can't over his ex girlfriend who cheated on him. He is the dad who keeps giving the son with a heroin addiction a second chance even though the sons steals money and wrecks family members cars. He's the boss who plays favorites, the corrupt Congressman, the teacher who favors girls over boys because 'boys are rowdy'. That's not a leader of the entire human race, it's the personification of all the nerds with insecurities playing this game and reading this lore projected onto the Emperor.

Second, part of the reason the traitors are sympathetic protagonists is because they realize the Emperor had no use for them beyond weapons of war, no matter how Guilliman dressed it up with culture and government or Sanguinius encouraged his sons to study art and empathize with mortals. Yes, the way this was handled by Graham McNeill and other authors didn't do it justice, but it's the ultimate justification for Horus' downfall, as terribly written as it was. Even the Night Lords have moments ignoring self-actualizatuon where they realize if the Emperor is fine with them being the way they are, he isn't fit to lead humanity and he's using them only to discard them later. Forge World has done an excellent job showing the Heresy, for the most part, is a political movement and civil war. Chaos is secondary to the considerations of most of the traitors and only when it's too late do they realize chaos defeated the traitors as much as the loyalists did. The politics of the traitors is about agency and self-determination, and the Emperor is fighting against them for wanting to be relevent to history. He's not walking into the duel with Horus to hand out pardons and tell them everything will be fine, he's walking into the duel to put down the mad dogs and he's probably going to euthanize the ones that protected him just to be safe.

Third, part of what makes the loyalists sympathetic protagonists is their commitment to their oaths and ideals of the great crusade, even know we now know the Emperor couldn't have cared less about their loyalty (the greatest sin is failure). They are watching half of their number betray them and ruin everything they have built. If the emperor forgave that, or had trouble swinging the sword in punishment, that's a slap in the face to every Iron Hand, Salamander, and Raven Guard lying dead on Isstvan, every Ultramarine floating in space above Calth or starving to death fighting with bare hands and rocks under the surface. It's a kick in the balls to every Blood Angel who survived Signus, and each Dark Angel flayed on a cross in Thramas.

This novel is great because it shows the loyalists are not only fighting to preserve the Imperium, now they are fighting to prove they are necessary. It adds a sense of urgency. If they lose then they will be treated the same as the traitors. If they win they might just get to live to serve on. There is a great golden bolt pistol pointed at the back of the head of every loyalist legionary now.

The problem with this is that none of the loyalists know how the Emperor feels. He allows them to think he feels a certain way, when in actuality they mean nothing.

And I think maybe the most important and intriguing thing to me is that maybe all of this could have been avoided if the Emperor wasn't so arrogant. His wastefulness and outright cruelty doesn't even give him the win in the end.

[Karthak]

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:44 PM, caladancid said:

 

The problem with this is that none of the loyalists know how the Emperor feels. He allows them to think he feels a certain way, when in actuality they mean nothing.

And I think maybe the most important and intriguing thing to me is that maybe all of this could have been avoided if the Emperor wasn't so arrogant. His wastefulness and outright cruelty doesn't even give him the win in the end.

 

Which makes one wonder how he ever got so far in the first place.

[Scribe]

Brutality, having the best weapons (aka Primarchs and Space Marines) and BRUTALITY.

 

That is how he got there.

 

This 'great leader' thing...just is not justifiable. He was the greatest dictator and warlord in history, with access to the greatest weapons and a complete lack of moral obligation to taking ANY step.

[Loesh]

The same way most cruel people do.

 

Guns.

[Marshal Rohr]

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:46 PM, Karthak said:

 

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:44 PM, caladancid said:

 

The problem with this is that none of the loyalists know how the Emperor feels. He allows them to think he feels a certain way, when in actuality they mean nothing.

And I think maybe the most important and intriguing thing to me is that maybe all of this could have been avoided if the Emperor wasn't so arrogant. His wastefulness and outright cruelty doesn't even give him the win in the end.

 

Which makes one wonder how he ever got so far in the first place.

 

 

Raw psychic talent probably helped. 

 

 

He even says he threw them a Triumph as a consolation prize. That seems short sighted. He should've known he was creating more problems than solving them by leaving them in the dark. 

[caladancid]

Yeah.

 

Does anyone know what the lore is about the daemon sword/person and how it gets to Abaddon? I read the ending as meaning one of two things: one, the Emperor wants to be killed by the daemon sword/person in the future and restart the process; or two, the Emperor still thinks there is some hope. I am unclear on which one it is, particularly when the Emperor seems to have abandoned all hope by the end.

 

Also, I assume no new Custodes are created before the Emperor goes to the throne forever. So we are left with a little less that 1k in perpetuity (since the Emperor says they are basically immortal)?

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon takes it out of some citadel. 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, since it is relevant to this discussion, LG on TFE said the William King/Alan Merrett Emperor/Horus story is going to be retconned and people shouldn't think of it as the final lore. 

[Karthak]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:05 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Abaddon takes it out of some citadel. 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, since it is relevant to this discussion, LG on TFE said the William King/Alan Merrett Emperor/Horus story is going to be retconned and people shouldn't think of it as the final lore. 

Well that's just splendid (he said in a sarcastic, disappointed tone). 

[Atia]

Not sure if it's already shared, but I love that artwork:

<3 Aaron - you made Sicarians (or Sicarii in plural?) canon for 30k

[Scribe]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:05 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

Abaddon takes it out of some citadel. 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, since it is relevant to this discussion, LG on TFE said the William King/Alan Merrett Emperor/Horus story is going to be retconned and people shouldn't think of it as the final lore.

 

Not sure how I feel about that.

 

ADB has to be wrapping the story though right?

[Sandlemad]

SO this was an amazing book. Literally too many brilliant things to list off so for now I will say that I really enjoyed the bit where 

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the myrmidon is strangling an EC sergeant with his servo-arms while blasting apart an EC squad with his volkite-arms, before bodily hurling the sergeant's broken body at his comrades. GodDAMN.

 

 

Surely not a bit that will inspire arguments and discussion like

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the Emperor referring to Angron (and the other primarchs) as 'it' or by their number, and out-and-out stating that a compromised primarch is better than no primarch

so I would simply like to flag it as insanely badass. The mechanicum get a very good showing in this book.

[Marshal Rohr]

Right. A it wouldn't make sense for the emperor to hold back. It makes ways more sense for Horus to just be super powerful.

[Atia]

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The mechanicum get a very good showing in this book.

Yep. Best written Mechanicum I read so far (and I loved Mechanicum, but this is even better). Love it how they use Omnissiah instead of Emperor each time they speak <3

 

So far I'm 1/4 through the book, and it's the best since Betrayer ^.^

[mc warhammer]

  On 11/26/2016 at 7:25 PM, MrDarth151 said:

  On 11/26/2016 at 6:56 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

  On 11/26/2016 at 6:53 PM, Scribe said:

What was your expectation though? That the E would be shown as some golden perfect leader?

From what I've gleaned so far, nothing has changed, he continues to be many things from many perspectives.

Don't engage him, he literally shows up to on ADB then leaves for weeks at a time.

Not really. The Master of Mankind is simply the only book I care about to come up in recent months. And frankly, the massive negative reactions I receive the last time I presented so much as a glimmer of dissenting opinion did not especially endear me to be active.

  On 11/26/2016 at 6:53 PM, Scribe said:

What was your expectation though? That the E would be shown as some golden perfect leader?

From what I've gleaned so far, nothing has changed, he continues to be many things from many perspectives.

What was my expectations?

That is a complicated question. So what did I expect? War in the Webway, of course.

It is what I didn't expect that does not make for optimistic predictions on my part.

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The total lack of attachement of empathy on part of the Emperor towards Primarchs does not make sense to me. Not only does it imply that he actively lied and deceived them, seemingly for no reason at all, it also does not mesh well with what we know about confrontation between him and Horus later on. It is clearly stated that the Emperor cared about Horus and he cared deeply about him. That was a major plot point of their fight.

And yes, I dislike the implications that much of what other writers have written for him is seemingly as lie. From what I've seen of the leaks, it seems to imply that The Emperor is heavily lacking in empathy, and that simply does not fit stuff that has been written about him thus far. And yes, lack of empathy is a fatal flaw to any ruler, especially the one such as the Emperor that needs to rely on delegation most of the time. It makes it difficult to believe that he was capable of succesfully leading the unification of Terra and the Great Crusade.

The other part is that the novel seemingly lays pretty heavily on Chaos being ultimate and undeniable victor of 40k. The biggest threat. The ones who will kill the Emperor. The ones who will win in the end. Drach'nyen is, from what I've seen, mostly brought up to show that Daemon that resides in Abaddons sword is beyond the power of Anathema to win against. Which, frankly, seems like unnecessary character shilling.

And it downsizes the universe. It is without ambiguity, something that I thought 40k have been pretty good for the last two editions, as to what might happen in the end. Could the Emperor possibly be victorious one day? I like that ambiguity, and it seems like the book have put complete and total end to it.

I dunno. It is quite possible that the doomsayers of the fandom are responsible for my perceptions, but from what I've heard, the book does not appear to be something that I would particulary enjoy.

"shilling". sounds like 4chan speak. the thread on that site mirrors darth's views 100%

[Loesh]

I saw that thread actually, some of the responses were...amusing. But then again I have a very rigid personal interpretation of the lore, with a loose view of how the lore should be interpreted by others, there are plenty of views on the setting that I find just incompatible with my own.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

[mc warhammer]

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:46 PM, Karthak said:

 

  On 11/26/2016 at 9:44 PM, caladancid said:

 

 

The problem with this is that none of the loyalists know how the Emperor feels. He allows them to think he feels a certain way, when in actuality they mean nothing.

And I think maybe the most important and intriguing thing to me is that maybe all of this could have been avoided if the Emperor wasn't so arrogant. His wastefulness and outright cruelty doesn't even give him the win in the end.

 

Which makes one wonder how he ever got so far in the first place.

arrogance and lack of empathy has never been a block to accumulating power and leading. it might not get you invited to any parties though

[mc warhammer]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:28 PM, Loesh said:

I saw that thread actually, some of the responses were...amusing. But then again I have a very rigid personal interpretation of the lore, with a loose view of how the lore should be interpreted by others, there are plenty of views on the setting that I find just incompatible with my own.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

totally agree...i just find group-think and the way it spreads, very interesting.

[caladancid]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:19 PM, Atia said:

 

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The mechanicum get a very good showing in this book.

Yep. Best written Mechanicum I read so far (and I loved Mechanicum, but this is even better). Love it how they use Omnissiah instead of Emperor each time they speak <3

 

So far I'm 1/4 through the book, and it's the best since Betrayer ^.^

 

 

Definitely agree on the Mechanicum parts. Land in particular was a great character. I really enjoyed the various scenes with Sicarii.

 

I have to disagree on Betrayer. I sometimes find ADB's love of horrible things happening to otherwise cool characters (Orfeo in this case) to be too much for me, sort of takes me out of enjoying his work at times.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's because he's a chaos fan at his core. No good guy goes unpunished.

[mc warhammer]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:42 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

It's because he's a chaos fan at his core. No good guy goes unpunished.

or isn't that just...40k? that it's not a moral universe. the vast majority of modern fiction rewards heroic actions, i always figured this was 40k's niche

[Loesh]

Snorts

 

I never bought the idea ADB was a Chaos fan specifically. Reading between the lines, horrible things happen to Chaos characters the same way as absolutely awful things happen to the loyalists. Both the Word Bearers and World Eaters get their face broken in repeatedly in Betrayer and Lorgar is humbled multiple times in the First Heretic.

 

Ultimately, the setting is just horrific and it breeds horrific people and outcomes.

[caladancid]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:46 PM, mc warhammer said:

 

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:42 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

It's because he's a chaos fan at his core. No good guy goes unpunished.

or isn't that just...40k? that it's not a moral universe. the vast majority of modern fiction rewards heroic actions, i always figured this was 40k's niche

 

 

Oh this is true for sure. Without getting too far off track, I just think he occasionally takes it a bit far. I understand others may like it, but it takes me out of the novel. Didn't happen in this book though, or at least nobody who I felt particularly bad about losing. Maybe Ra. But I don't mind mental or emotional turmoil. Its the physical suffering I don't enjoy.

[Marshal Rohr]

  On 11/26/2016 at 10:52 PM, Loesh said:

Snorts

 

I never bought the idea ADB was a Chaos fan specifically. Reading between the lines, horrible things happen to Chaos characters the same way as absolutely awful things happen to the loyalists. Both the Word Bearers and World Eaters get their face broken in repeatedly in Betrayer and Lorgar is humbled multiple times in the First Heretic.

 

Ultimately, the setting is just horrific and it breeds horrific people and outcomes.

Hardly. No where in history do good guys always take it on the nose. No where in history do bad guys always take it on the nose. Sometimes victories for good and bad people come without some form of loss. In this setting no one ever wins anything without losing something, and that's a function of how stories are written not a reflection of reality.