Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

Whilst we're talking about Zephon, did anyone else get a 'drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword' vibe when he demands the Raider be driven in closer whilst he readies his blade?

That was certainly what came to mind when I read that.

[b1soul]

Based on MoM...is the Emperor just a really powerful human psyker?

 

Does MoM shed any light on the nature of Perpetuals?

[hopkins]

Based on MoM...is the Emperor just a really powerful human psyker?

 

Does MoM shed any light on the nature of Perpetuals?

 

 

a really really powerful human psyker

 

not that i noticed

 

[Noserenda]

Zephron is crippled because he cant interface properly with his extensive bionic limbs, so he cant reliably hold a sword or pull a trigger. At least initially ;) Thats why he was in the crusader host.

Regards him being a Moritat, he is almost always seen fighting/thinking with Bolter and Chainsword (Appros!) but he gears up with Rad grenades and dual Serpentas. So, thus i am confused...

 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Wasn't the Howl of the Hearthworld watch pack meant to feature in this one, or did I imagine that?

[HeritorA]

One of the things I hate the most in any story, which unfortunately 40k suffers from, is the concept of power levels, measured in numbers or another abstract concept. Where the one with the higher 'number' always win, is always the most powerful.

For me it lacks nuances. For example, an Astartes whom is a master of duels might find himself bested by a weaker character, or in the roaring thunder of the battlefield. It doesn't diminish his accomplishments. It merely enforce that it's a deadly world were even a moment lack of concentration or just a stroke of bad luck can and will get you Killed.

So even if the first murder doesn't have the same 'number' as the Emperor it is still a potent threat since it represents something that is anathema for the rule of mankind. One is hope, the other is the end.

Precious nuance. Marry me.

True. But still it's interesting why he can't kill first murder but was able to do 'a lot' to Horus,even being weakened himself.

'Wasn't the Howl of the Hearthworld watch pack meant to feature in this one, or did I imagine that?' - that's the question to A D-B for sure.

All in all 10 out of 10! A D-B you did it. From the point of your greatness I almost can see how hard it was to write this novel

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the safest bet is that the Emperor doesn't super Saiyan Horus anymore and it's a real no holds barred brawl, especially since the old fluff had him remove any trace of Horus from the mortal world and Talon of Horus had enough of a body left to clone.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I did't think Horus got vaporised. I thought there was enough of his corpse left over to steal from? Plus Let's not forget it was not only Horus "gifted" by all for god's but rather inhabited. The Emperor Literally took on the big 4, his own most "Capable" son. Less we forget the chaos god's are derived from not only human but any emotional based species. 

[Marshal Loss]

My understanding was always that he obliterated his soul, his body was still there as Abaddon led a furious counter attack to recapture it. See 'Wolf and Ash of Fire' by G McNeill, the big E does essentially the same thing to a giant Ork in front of Horus, who ironically stands there thinking 'wow I didn't know Dad could kill somebody as completely as this'. But in this description it says it (the process) destroyed the body as well.

 

 

Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again. Nothing would ever remain of he who suffered such a fate. Their body and soul would pass from the finite energy of the universe, to fade into memory and have all that they were wiped from the canvas of existence. This was as complete a death as it was possible to suffer.

 

 

Raises some interesting questions - if Horus did have his soul completely obliterated, where does that leave the perfect clone in Talon of Horus? We'll no doubt find out on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit itself. As the other Marshal says though, they'll probably change the details. I'm excited to see what happens either way.

[Robster The Lobster]

 

 

One of the things I hate the most in any story, which unfortunately 40k suffers from, is the concept of power levels, measured in numbers or another abstract concept. Where the one with the higher 'number' always win, is always the most powerful.

 

For me it lacks nuances. For example, an Astartes whom is a master of duels might find himself bested by a weaker character, or in the roaring thunder of the battlefield. It doesn't diminish his accomplishments. It merely enforce that it's a deadly world were even a moment lack of concentration or just a stroke of bad luck can and will get you Killed.

 

So even if the first murder doesn't have the same 'number' as the Emperor it is still a potent threat since it represents something that is anathema for the rule of mankind. One is hope, the other is the end.

Precious nuance. Marry me.

I have tried for years to get nuance to marry me. But unfortunately it have turned me down. I wish you better luck with your effort.

[HeritorA]

One of the things I hate the most in any story, which unfortunately 40k suffers from, is the concept of power levels, measured in numbers or another abstract concept. Where the one with the higher 'number' always win, is always the most powerful.

For me it lacks nuances. For example, an Astartes whom is a master of duels might find himself bested by a weaker character, or in the roaring thunder of the battlefield. It doesn't diminish his accomplishments. It merely enforce that it's a deadly world were even a moment lack of concentration or just a stroke of bad luck can and will get you Killed.

So even if the first murder doesn't have the same 'number' as the Emperor it is still a potent threat since it represents something that is anathema for the rule of mankind. One is hope, the other is the end.

Precious nuance. Marry me.

I have tried for years to get nuance to marry me. But unfortunately it have turned me down. I wish you better luck with your effort.

You made my day!

[MrBadweed]

Based on MoM...is the Emperor just a really powerful human psyker?

Does MoM shed any light on the nature of Perpetuals?

Actually :

There is nothing clear on what/who the emperor is, a relic weapon/creation of the Dark ages of technology ? The gestalt miind of dead shamans ? a really badass psyker ? He may not even be Human. Even the sisters seing him " as he is" is touchy. And the scenes when he "gives his inner thoughts away" can be seen as allegorical and tainted by who is seing him.

The dude has a very old testamenty vibe .

Nuthin 'bout perpetuals.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

As I'm reading, he comes off more and more like an Uber-Daemon of Humanity, the ultimate concept of What-It-Truly-Means-To-Be-Human. The analogies between how he's perceived and what he says about the approaching daemon's screams, for example, are astounding. He's beyond human, even superhuman comprehension, because Humanity cannot comprehend it's own nature. It's very likely that he himself cannot comprehend his own being and nature and still keeps on experimenting with himself and his past, humanity's past.

I absolutely love how this ties with the ideas I juggled around in
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327641-missing-primarchs-emperor-perfectly-flawed/

 

[Vaughn]

How did the sisters "truely see him"?

[Commander Dawnstar]

How did the sisters "truely see him"?

 

To pluck a few choice lines:

 

 

"She saw a man on a throne, no more, no less. No radiant halo. No psychic corona."

 

"...the Emperor was just a man in pain, His suffering etched plain, His mouth open in a silent scream. The agonies He endured for the species had wrought lines upon His features, somehow bringing the passage of time to an ageless face."

 

 

While we're on the subject: Has Jenetia Krole been referred to as "the Soulless Queen" before this novel? I hadn't encountered the title before and mistakenly assumed it was some new character at first.

[Hydriatus]

Minor question:

 

 

Is that the Legion of the Damned the Emperor summons at the end, being led by Ferrus?

 

[Petitioner's City]

Zephron is crippled because he cant interface properly with his extensive bionic limbs, so he cant reliably hold a sword or pull a trigger. At least initially Thats why he was in the crusader host.

Regards him being a Moritat, he is almost always seen fighting/thinking with Bolter and Chainsword (Appros!) but he gears up with Rad grenades and dual Serpentas. So, thus i am confused...

Characters are not unit entries! Of course a moritat, or a centurion, or a whatever, can and will use multiples forms of arms!

My understanding was always that he obliterated his soul, his body was still there as Abaddon led a furious counter attack to recapture it. See 'Wolf and Ash of Fire' by G McNeill, the big E does essentially the same thing to a giant Ork in front of Horus, who ironically stands there thinking 'wow I didn't know Dad could kill somebody as completely as this'. But in this description it says it (the process) destroyed the body as well.

Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again. Nothing would ever remain of he who suffered such a fate. Their body and soul would pass from the finite energy of the universe, to fade into memory and have all that they were wiped from the canvas of existence. This was as complete a death as it was possible to suffer.

Raises some interesting questions - if Horus did have his soul completely obliterated, where does that leave the perfect clone in Talon of Horus? We'll no doubt find out on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit itself. As the other Marshal says though, they'll probably change the details. I'm excited to see what happens either way.

Well mentality & neuroscience is very different from souls - Horus in Talon is a reconstruction of the original from his brain architecture and encoded memories, probably? Just as with Bequin in Pariah - she is 'soulless', but she has a mind. Although it is not an accurate cloning of her original mind.

[Fire Golem]

Finished it a bit earlier, it really was excellent. As I so often do, reading through this thread, I wish I'd picked up on some of the subtleties and deeper stuff mentioned here. Even so, the ramifications and the importance of the story was certainly not lost. I thought the Emperor was portrayed very well, there were multiple interpretations of him shown through the book, all of which could be equally valid or invalid, as it should be. The Custodes, especially Diocletian, were very cold towards humanity and the Astartes (I didn't like Diocletian at all, the way he treated the Astartes, even with how much the Loyalists have given/lost in the war so far). As usual I don't have much to add, other than to say how much I enjoyed it. I hope Aaron ends up writing the final showdown.

[Joeyray]

Minor question:

 

 

Is that the Legion of the Damned the Emperor summons at the end, being led by Ferrus?

 

I don't think it's the true LoTD but more a psychic reflection of all those betrayed, really enjoyed the idea of this rolling wave of fiery vengeance. Reminded me of two things: First a scene from one of the old Grey Kmihh novel's where the character is shown a vision of the final battle of humanity all the good loyal souls vs the full night of the lost and damned, although this turned out to be a vision induced by a daemon. Secondly from the Talon of Horus the firert angels from the Astronomican that fight in the Eye of terror, sea of flame/fire sounds familiar?

[Vesper]

 

My understanding was always that he obliterated his soul, his body was still there as Abaddon led a furious counter attack to recapture it. See 'Wolf and Ash of Fire' by G McNeill, the big E does essentially the same thing to a giant Ork in front of Horus, who ironically stands there thinking 'wow I didn't know Dad could kill somebody as completely as this'. But in this description it says it (the process) destroyed the body as well.

 

 

Horus felt the build up of colossal psychic energies and shielded his eyes as a furious light built within the Emperor. Power like nothing he had ever seen his father wield, or even suspected he possessed. All consuming, all powerful, it was the power to extinguish life in every sphere of its existence. Physical flesh turned to ash before it and what ancient faiths had once called a soul was burned out of existence, never to cohere again. Nothing would ever remain of he who suffered such a fate. Their body and soul would pass from the finite energy of the universe, to fade into memory and have all that they were wiped from the canvas of existence. This was as complete a death as it was possible to suffer.

 

 

Raises some interesting questions - if Horus did have his soul completely obliterated, where does that leave the perfect clone in Talon of Horus? We'll no doubt find out on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit itself. As the other Marshal says though, they'll probably change the details. I'm excited to see what happens either way.

 

Well mentality &  neuroscience is very different from souls - Horus in Talon is a reconstruction of the original from his brain architecture and encoded memories, probably? Just as with Bequin in Pariah - she is 'soulless', but she has a mind. Although it is not an accurate cloning of her original mind.

Except Horus Reborn seems to have a soul. A daemon like Gyre sees him, unlike the daemons in TMoM who just can't see the souless sisters when they don't dissolve by their simple presence. And Gyre is far from Drach'nyen in term of daemonic power levels.

[Jim Shady]

 

Minor question:

 

 

Is that the Legion of the Damned the Emperor summons at the end, being led by Ferrus?

 

I don't think it's the true LoTD but more a psychic reflection of all those betrayed, really enjoyed the idea of this rolling wave of fiery vengeance. Reminded me of two things: First a scene from one of the old Grey Kmihh novel's where the character is shown a vision of the final battle of humanity all the good loyal souls vs the full night of the lost and damned, although this turned out to be a vision induced by a daemon. Secondly from the Talon of Horus the firert angels from the Astronomican that fight in the Eye of terror, sea of flame/fire sounds familiar?

 

 

And it happened in one of the End of Times WHF novels. Basically every Dwarf that had ever lived and was dead by that point appeared as a ghost army, lead by the White Beard himself, Grombindal.

 

My flat mate said the same thing when I told him about the

ghost army

That got me thinking about the Emperor in His current state and how one of the theories is his mind has shattered into shards and maybe it's a particular shard that's allowing the LoTD to appear. Saying that, that's another debate/argument/battle for another thread....

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Minor question:

 

 

Is that the Legion of the Damned the Emperor summons at the end, being led by Ferrus?

 

tbh I thought it was just ... an expression of his vengeance. Sons and legionaries lost, so the attack Emps sent out seemed to take that form, not that Ferrus was necessarily actually there.

[m0nolith]

 

 

 

He doesn't even always refer to the primarchs in those terms. There are key moments where he doesn't, or his tone changes, or something else in the scene subtly shifts. Look at the context in those moments. Almost every comment I've seen seems to get it, thankfully. As I said before: "Like characters such as Land seeing him as detached and emotionless in manner and speech (he sees the perfect scientist, the God of Science and Scientists, beyond emotional attachment to his creations), Ra seeing him as distant but dutiful (he sees a king, distant from humanity but utterly dutiful, in Ra's own image, willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the species going), and Diocletian seeing flashes of more emotion once everything has all come crashing down (he sees humanity's saviour who was just forced to leave the Throne), and so on."

 

Even Rogal Dorn is irritated by the Custodians' stoicism, and that scene heavily (and I was worried, that it even unsubtly) implies he's used to a far more informal relationship with his dad, and it's a ballache that the Emperor is so focused on the Throne, and needs to deal through intermediaries. This isn't business as normal. No character in the novel acts like it is. Not one. They're all faced with unprecedented choices and situations. Some repeatedly. It's business at the bleeding edge of losing everything.

 

 

 

@ADB

 

If how one views the Emperor (visually and personality wise) is different from person to person that interacts with him, is it fair to say that you wrote him as an analogue to the setting itself being that there is general diversity on how people view the 40k universe?

Or am I seeing patterns where there are none?

[Sete]

Ferrus Manus makes a special appearance aswell ;)

Oh nvm lol

[MrDarth151]

 

In all seriousness, I get it. I do. But nothing has been confirmed (Jesus, everything in the book has a literal counterpoint later in the same book - even the use of "He calls the primarchs by their numbers so he must have hated them"), and nothing is Word of Godded unto Ye Final Dayes. Nothing has even really changed. No matter how much you insist I've changed everything, the problem here is that I know I haven't. No matter how much you say it's different from Collected Visions, it literally follows the reasoning and rhyming from that text, and my conversations with the author of that text. So there's no back and forth here, no dialogue - and even there was, can you imagine how tedious it is for me to be trying to explain a book that's just been released, where all of this is explained in the book (and, indeed, in 30 years of lore anyway) over and over again, with no hope of a resolution?

 

I, on the other hand, do not get it. You say stuff like "Nothing has changed, everything is consistent", and I am here scratching my head how you can claim there is definitive and set conclusion to war in 40k contrary to what codexes have established, a clear logical contradiction if ever saw one, where one sides declares that there is a single possible outcome and other declare that there are multiple outcomes.

 

Assuming neither side is lying, one must be wrong, for logically, one cannot claim things that are contradictory to be both true.

 

It annoys me, because I don't have the editorial staff and IP experts on speed dial and I need to take stuff as written, not as intended. I am very glad that you know you haven't written anything contrary. It does not help, when what I have to go with is what you have written, and not what you know.

 

At any rate, I should get my hands on my own copy of the book soon. More concrete thoughts then.