Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Is the book actually out? Anyone post me a link?

[Petitioner's City]

Is the book actually out? Anyone post me a link?

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-master-of-mankind-ebook.html

 

[caladancid]

 

Man, I hope some of the spoilers regarding the big E's relationship with the Primarchs aren't true.

 

Me too. Or, rather, I hope they're countered in later (or even previous) scenes, giving possibility that people perceive the Emperor in some way along their wavelength.

Like characters such as Land seeing him as detached and emotionless in manner and speech, Ra seeing him as distant but dutiful, and Diocletian seeing flashes of more emotion once everything has all come crashing down, and so on.

 

 

I suspect it'll be more like that, with the idea that you can never be 100% sure you're hearing what a mind that impossible is actually conveying; just the gist of it. Like it's however your psyche interprets the situation you're in with the man. Call it a hunch...

 

 

Although I don't really know how to disagree with an author about what he has written, I did not read anything that made me think the Emperor had much regard for the Primarchs. I did not see it as viewing through a prism, rather he just thought of them as tools and literally could care less about them if they helped conquer. I actually thought this coupled well with the latest discussion of primarchs from Praetorian of Dorn.  They aren't human, they just happen to look (sort of) human. The Emperor is interested in mankind, so why would he care about weapons created to simulate humanity?

 

I guess I can see how that would upset some people who wanted the Emperor to be a nicer figure, but come on, this is the same guy who built an empire on the backs of the Thunder Warriors, then had them all killed. The Emperor not being a sympathetic figure isn't anything new.

 

Side note, the part of the novel that really got in my head is Minister Zu's theory of who/what the Emperor is.  What if that is true?!?! This is a great novel.

[Scribe]

Lol I'm tempted to get the e-book even with my pre-ordered version...

Oh and is there a Shaman reference ala Realms of Chaos?

 

Just a yes or no is sufficient.

[MrDarth151]

What was your expectation though? That the E would be shown as some golden perfect leader?

From what I've gleaned so far, nothing has changed, he continues to be many things from many perspectives.

Don't engage him, he literally shows up to on ADB then leaves for weeks at a time.

Not really. The Master of Mankind is simply the only book I care about to come up in recent months. And frankly, the massive negative reactions I receive the last time I presented so much as a glimmer of dissenting opinion did not especially endear me to be active.

What was your expectation though? That the E would be shown as some golden perfect leader?

From what I've gleaned so far, nothing has changed, he continues to be many things from many perspectives.

What was my expectations?

That is a complicated question. So what did I expect? War in the Webway, of course.

It is what I didn't expect that does not make for optimistic predictions on my part.

The total lack of attachement of empathy on part of the Emperor towards Primarchs does not make sense to me. Not only does it imply that he actively lied and deceived them, seemingly for no reason at all, it also does not mesh well with what we know about confrontation between him and Horus later on. It is clearly stated that the Emperor cared about Horus and he cared deeply about him. That was a major plot point of their fight.

And yes, I dislike the implications that much of what other writers have written for him is seemingly as lie. From what I've seen of the leaks, it seems to imply that The Emperor is heavily lacking in empathy, and that simply does not fit stuff that has been written about him thus far. And yes, lack of empathy is a fatal flaw to any ruler, especially the one such as the Emperor that needs to rely on delegation most of the time. It makes it difficult to believe that he was capable of succesfully leading the unification of Terra and the Great Crusade.

The other part is that the novel seemingly lays pretty heavily on Chaos being ultimate and undeniable victor of 40k. The biggest threat. The ones who will kill the Emperor. The ones who will win in the end. Drach'nyen is, from what I've seen, mostly brought up to show that Daemon that resides in Abaddons sword is beyond the power of Anathema to win against. Which, frankly, seems like unnecessary character shilling.

And it downsizes the universe. It is without ambiguity, something that I thought 40k have been pretty good for the last two editions, as to what might happen in the end. Could the Emperor possibly be victorious one day? I like that ambiguity, and it seems like the book have put complete and total end to it.

I dunno. It is quite possible that the doomsayers of the fandom are responsible for my perceptions, but from what I've heard, the book does not appear to be something that I would particulary enjoy.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Man, I hope some of the spoilers regarding the big E's relationship with the Primarchs aren't true.

Me too. Or, rather, I hope they're countered in later (or even previous) scenes, giving possibility that people perceive the Emperor in some way along their wavelength.

Like characters such as Land seeing him as detached and emotionless in manner and speech, Ra seeing him as distant but dutiful, and Diocletian seeing flashes of more emotion once everything has all come crashing down, and so on.

 

 

I suspect it'll be more like that, with the idea that you can never be 100% sure you're hearing what a mind that impossible is actually conveying; just the gist of it. Like it's however your psyche interprets the situation you're in with the man. Call it a hunch...

Although I don't really know how to disagree with an author about what he has written, I did not read anything that made me think the Emperor had much regard for the Primarchs. I did not see it as viewing through a prism, rather he just thought of them as tools and literally could care less about them if they helped conquer. I actually thought this coupled well with the latest discussion of primarchs from Praetorian of Dorn. They aren't human, they just happen to look (sort of) human. The Emperor is interested in mankind, so why would he care about weapons created to simulate humanity?

 

I guess I can see how that would upset some people who wanted the Emperor to be a nicer figure, but come on, this is the same guy who built an empire on the backs of the Thunder Warriors, then had them all killed. The Emperor not being a sympathetic figure isn't anything new.

 

Side note, the part of the novel that really got in my head is Minister Zu's theory of who/what the Emperor is. What if that is true?!?! This is a great novel.

I think the scenes of his childhood can be used to illustrate he isn't a weapon created during the Age of Strife. They predate our own time by thousands of years. The emperor not being nice isn't something I have a problem with, it's the way his attitude would openly incite rebellion by the legions. He use Pinocchio as an illustration, but this time it would be like Pinocchio watching his creator use the other puppets as firewood in front of pinnochios face, if that makes sense.

 

I don't like the way everyone treats marines like :cuss now. Literally half of them are dying by the handful to stop Horus and Arkhans Land is a :cuss to the BA on the trip for no reason, who is just trying to help.

[caladancid]

Yeah but even Ra questions whether that scene from his "youth" actually happened.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think the incentive is there for the emperor to lie anymore. He knows what's coming. And I have never liked the idea that every time we told something in this series or every version of events isn't just inaccurate it's also intentionally misleading to confuse the readers.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Thank you for the link. Amazon is confusing me.

[Scribe]

Darth, it's not your fault, as GW lost their way over the last several editions, but the Emperor and Imperium was always going to lose, they never had a chance.

[MrDarth151]

Darth, it's not your fault, as GW lost their way over the last several editions, but the Emperor and Imperium was always going to lose, they never had a chance.

 

Yeah, I forgot that "True 40k" was always pointlessly nihilistic.

 

You know, I've considered moving away from that the smartest move the company has done in recent years. I was evidently wrong.

 

Edit.

 

It does not change my complaint that I do not believe that what I've heard of the book thus far is consistent with the rest of the sources.

[Loesh]

The Emperor was never a being of empathy, and I don't think he ever approached mankind in any way like other rulers in our history. Diplomacy may of happened to get some of what he wanted, but he was a conqueror, a warlord.

 

He simply beat the universe into submission and then ruled it with an iron fist made of techno-sorcery and the dead.

[Forward Assist]

It does not change my complaint that I do not believe that what I've heard of the book thus far is consistent with the rest of the sources.

Well, wait to read it yourself and perhaps then - if you don't like it - complain?

[MrDarth151]

The Emperor was never a being of empathy, and I don't think he ever approached mankind in any way like other rulers in our history. Diplomacy may of happened to get some of what he wanted, but he was a conqueror, a warlord.

 

He simply beat the universe into submission and then ruled it with an iron fist made of techno-sorcery and the dead.

 

Mhm.

 

 

The Emperor could sense the Chaos powers in the warp. They howled in glee and rage as they fed their pawn more power. They had waited long for this chance to strike at their most ardent foe. The Lord of Humanity stood alone against their massed might and knew that he was losing. Somehow he could not make himself bring his full force to bear on Horus; the Warmaster might be traitor but deep within him was still the favoured son, the finest of the Primarchs, the beloved scion

 

But I guess Alan Merrett did not actually know that The Emperor was devoided of empathy, and viewed his sons as only pawns.

 

 

 

 

It does not change my complaint that I do not believe that what I've heard of the book thus far is consistent with the rest of the sources.

Well, wait to read it yourself and perhaps then - if you don't like it - complain?

 

 

I intend to. Which is why I only talked in context of spoilers and snippets that people whom I know shared, since they got the book ahead of me. By no means is it a final opinion. I have simply stated that bits and pieces that I know do not fill me with optimism. What, is that not allowed too?

[Marshal Rohr]

He talks about consulting with Merret in the afterward. Checkmate.

 

Look dude. I don't like the emperor viewing them as pawns either but there is a massive difference between me saying 'the book was great, but I'm too much of a space marine fan to like the Emperor being so apathetic towards their contributions' and you literally creating an account to say 'ADB doesn't know the source material and he doesn't get the setting'.

[MrDarth151]

He talks about consulting with Merret in the afterward. Checkmate.

 

Then I guess I am wrong about liking the Collected Visions. It turns out that the version of 40k universe that is undeniable cannon is the one I actually don't like.

 

Welp. I guess that's that. Apologies for inconvenience.

 

 

Look dude. I don't like the emperor viewing them as pawns either but there is a massive difference between me saying 'the book was great, but I'm too much of a space marine fan to like the Emperor being so apathetic towards their contributions' and you literally creating an account to say 'ADB doesn't know the source material and he doesn't get the setting'.

 

 

No, I very much think that ADB knows the source material. Which is why I am baffled by this seemingly contradictory information. So, is the Emperor actually not caring about Primarchs beyond them being tools of war, or does he love Horus to the degree that he cannot bring himself to kill him when he leads the enemy force on the Throneworld?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Although certain primarchs are lacking in character detail , I find it very, VERY,  hard to believe that the Emperor could consider his sons as mere strategic assets. Yes, he is indeed trying to unite humanity under the banner of mankind itself is divine, I am now worthy of worship blah blah. There is were the problem lies though. The mere fact we have a god like being trying to dissuade individuals of his benign nature by letting his own "loved" sons run rampart merely reinforces the fact, Maybe Horus, closest to the Emperor, is indeed the best candidate to take the Emperor down. As his personal investment in his favoured "son/chess-piece"  is truly devoid of love. An element any sentient being needs. And although I believe the Emperor is indeed in a state of demigod like cognition, his sheer transcendence separates him from humanity, resulting in this Heresy.

 

Basically What I am saying is the Emperor controls both pieces on the chess board. Knowing that his sons control the bigger pieces but the smaller pieces wont move without the certainty of their overseers. In uniting humanity and damming all mutant/degenerate and trans human life forms, only then can he distil humanity in it's purest form. Free of the shackles of supposed greatness. Now free to exist without the need of Daemons of the warp and Angels of Death. 

 

Or at least that's the only valid option my mind is willing to believe, even then realising the sadness of the outcome. 

[Jim Shady]

 

 

Side note, the part of the novel that really got in my head is Minister Zu's theory of who/what the Emperor is.  What if that is true?!?! This is a great novel.

 

 

Can you elaborate? ;)

[Loesh]

Why not both? Maybe the only son he cared about was Horus.

[Scribe]

I think we will find that Horus is the exception, not the rule.

Darth, it's not your fault, as GW lost their way over the last several editions, but the Emperor and Imperium was always going to lose, they never had a chance.

Yeah, I forgot that "True 40k" was always pointlessly nihilistic.

You know, I've considered moving away from that the smartest move the company has done in recent years. I was evidently wrong.

Edit.

It does not change my complaint that I do not believe that what I've heard of the book thus far is consistent with the rest of the sources.

It is not pointlessly nihilistic, being nihilistic IS the point!

There is no right or wrong in this setting, there certainly is no moral good. There is Ends justified by any means, and the Imperiums only End, is to survive another night.

This is a faction with no issues in sterilizing or cleansing LOYAL worlds, in 30K or 40K.

This is a faction which depends on creating monsters, brainwashing them, and in some cases wiping their minds to ensure their survival.

This is a faction which when confronted with refusal by their own species will KILL THEM ALL vs letting that world (or worlds) stand on their own.

There is no point in time in which the roots of 40K have the Imperium as anything but the worst regime of all time, lead by monsters, if only because that is the only way to survive.

Chaos wins, not because its better, but because mankind cannot help to save itself from its own worst failings.

High Fantasy is elsewhere, this is 40K, and its grim, and dark, and nihilistic, because thats the point of the setting. You can even play within it, and your hero's can be righteous, and morally upstanding, but thats not the setting, and ADB is one of the best and holding to what the setting actually is, not what he wants to make it up to be.

If you can find sources that show my views are wrong, stack them against those that back me up.

EDIT: Now my blood is up! Anyone got a link to this Reddit thread so I can bask in people's futile protestations?

[caladancid]

Why not both? Maybe the only son he cared about was Horus.

I dunno, he doesn't even refer to him by name, just number.

Side note, the part of the novel that really got in my head is Minister Zu's theory of who/what the Emperor is. What if that is true?!?! This is a great novel.

Can you elaborate?

The possibility that the Emperor is some sort of Dark Age construct running amok.

[Marshal Rohr]

He's definitely not going to love Horus so much he has a problem killing him, and if you can't see why that is a good thing, then you are never going to like the setting. The Emperor and Horus fighting each other through tears is frankly so unrealistic and impossible it was the one thing that didn't fit in with the rest of Collected Visions. And here is why:

 

First, Horus betrayed the Emperor. On a personal level, having the emperor not want to kill him because he loves him makes the Emperor a weaker character. He's a the whiny ex boyfriend who can't over his :cuss ex girlfriend who cheated on him. He is the dad who keeps giving the son with a heroin addiction a second chance even though the sons steals money and wrecks family members cars. He's the boss who plays favorites, the corrupt Congressman, the teacher who favors girls over boys because 'boys are rowdy'. That's not a leader of the entire human race, it's the personification of all the nerds with insecurities playing this game and reading this lore projected onto the Emperor.

 

Second, part of the reason the traitors are sympathetic protagonists is because they realize the Emperor had no use for them beyond weapons of war, no matter how Guilliman dressed it up with culture and government or Sanguinius encouraged his sons to study art and empathize with mortals. Yes, the way this was handled by Graham McNeill and other authors didn't do it justice, but it's the ultimate justification for Horus' downfall, as terribly written as it was. Even the Night Lords have moments ignoring self-actualizatuon where they realize if the Emperor is fine with them being the way they are, he isn't fit to lead humanity and he's using them only to discard them later. Forge World has done an excellent job showing the Heresy, for the most part, is a political movement and civil war. Chaos is secondary to the considerations of most of the traitors and only when it's too late do they realize chaos defeated the traitors as much as the loyalists did. The politics of the traitors is about agency and self-determination, and the Emperor is fighting against them for wanting to be relevent to history. He's not walking into the duel with Horus to hand out pardons and tell them everything will be fine, he's walking into the duel to put down the mad dogs and he's probably going to euthanize the ones that protected him just to be safe.

 

Third, part of what makes the loyalists sympathetic protagonists is their commitment to their oaths and ideals of the great crusade, even know we now know the Emperor couldn't have cared less about their loyalty (the greatest sin is failure). They are watching half of their number betray them and ruin everything they have built. If the emperor forgave that, or had trouble swinging the sword in punishment, that's a slap in the face to every Iron Hand, Salamander, and Raven Guard lying dead on Isstvan, every Ultramarine floating in space above Calth or starving to death fighting with bare hands and rocks under the surface. It's a kick in the balls to every Blood Angel who survived Signus, and each Dark Angel flayed on a cross in Thramas.

 

This novel is great because it shows the loyalists are not only fighting to preserve the Imperium, now they are fighting to prove they are necessary. It adds a sense of urgency. If they lose then they will be treated the same as the traitors. If they win they might just get to live to serve on. There is a great golden bolt pistol pointed at the back of the head of every loyalist legionary now.

[Karthak]

I think we will find that Horus is the exception, not the rule.

Darth, it's not your fault, as GW lost their way over the last several editions, but the Emperor and Imperium was always going to lose, they never had a chance.

Yeah, I forgot that "True 40k" was always pointlessly nihilistic.

You know, I've considered moving away from that the smartest move the company has done in recent years. I was evidently wrong.

Edit.

It does not change my complaint that I do not believe that what I've heard of the book thus far is consistent with the rest of the sources.

It is not pointlessly nihilistic, being nihilistic IS the point!

There is no right or wrong in this setting, there certainly is no moral good. There is Ends justified by any means, and the Imperiums only End, is to survive another night.

This is a faction with no issues in sterilizing or cleansing LOYAL worlds, in 30K or 40K.

This is a faction which depends on creating monsters, brainwashing them, and in some cases wiping their minds to ensure their survival.

This is a faction which when confronted with refusal by their own species will KILL THEM ALL vs letting that world (or worlds) stand on their own.

There is no point in time in which the roots of 40K have the Imperium as anything but the worst regime of all time, lead by monsters, if only because that is the only way to survive.

Chaos wins, not because its better, but because mankind cannot help to save itself from its own worst failings.

High Fantasy is elsewhere, this is 40K, and its grim, and dark, and nihilistic, because thats the point of the setting. You can even play within it, and your hero's can be righteous, and morally upstanding, but thats not the setting, and ADB is one of the best and holding to what the setting actually is, not what he wants to make it up to be.

If you can find sources that show my views are wrong, stack them against those that back me up.

EDIT: Now my blood is up! Anyone got a link to this Reddit thread so I can bask in people's futile protestations?

http://i.imgur.com/cuKWJvD.jpg

Then I guess I can't call myself a real 40k fan, since "everything is doomed no matter what" and "Chaos is inevitably going to win" are concepts I detest with an unholy passion.

Hells, that's why I immediately latched onto the Tau when they came out, since here was a faction that actually tried to improve things.

[Loesh]

Guess not. :P

[Scribe]

Totally fine view Karthak, if you cannot accept core tenents of the setting, we all have to ask ourselves if our views fit with what we enjoy.

He's definitely not going to love Horus so much he has a problem killing him, and if you can't see why that is a good thing, then you are never going to like the setting. The Emperor and Horus fighting each other through tears is frankly so unrealistic and impossible it was the one thing that didn't fit in with the rest of Collected Visions. And here is why:

First, Horus betrayed the Emperor. On a personal level, having the emperor not want to kill him because he loves him makes the Emperor a weaker character. He's a the whiny ex boyfriend who can't over his ex girlfriend who cheated on him. He is the dad who keeps giving the son with a heroin addiction a second chance even though the sons steals money and wrecks family members cars. He's the boss who plays favorites, the corrupt Congressman, the teacher who favors girls over boys because 'boys are rowdy'. That's not a leader of the entire human race, it's the personification of all the nerds with insecurities playing this game and reading this lore projected onto the Emperor.

Second, part of the reason the traitors are sympathetic protagonists is because they realize the Emperor had no use for them beyond weapons of war, no matter how Guilliman dressed it up with culture and government or Sanguinius encouraged his sons to study art and empathize with mortals. Yes, the way this was handled by Graham McNeill and other authors didn't do it justice, but it's the ultimate justification for Horus' downfall, as terribly written as it was. Even the Night Lords have moments ignoring self-actualizatuon where they realize if the Emperor is fine with them being the way they are, he isn't fit to lead humanity and he's using them only to discard them later. Forge World has done an excellent job showing the Heresy, for the most part, is a political movement and civil war. Chaos is secondary to the considerations of most of the traitors and only when it's too late do they realize chaos defeated the traitors as much as the loyalists did. The politics of the traitors is about agency and self-determination, and the Emperor is fighting against them for wanting to be relevent to history. He's not walking into the duel with Horus to hand out pardons and tell them everything will be fine, he's walking into the duel to put down the mad dogs and he's probably going to euthanize the ones that protected him just to be safe.

Third, part of what makes the loyalists sympathetic protagonists is their commitment to their oaths and ideals of the great crusade, even know we now know the Emperor couldn't have cared less about their loyalty (the greatest sin is failure). They are watching half of their number betray them and ruin everything they have built. If the emperor forgave that, or had trouble swinging the sword in punishment, that's a slap in the face to every Iron Hand, Salamander, and Raven Guard lying dead on Isstvan, every Ultramarine floating in space above Calth or starving to death fighting with bare hands and rocks under the surface. It's a kick in the balls to every Blood Angel who survived Signus, and each Dark Angel flayed on a cross in Thramas.

This novel is great because it shows the loyalists are not only fighting to preserve the Imperium, now they are fighting to prove they are necessary. It adds a sense of urgency. If they lose then they will be treated the same as the traitors. If they win they might just get to live to serve on. Their is a great golden bolt pistol pointed at the back of the head of every loyalist legionary now.

Great post, that last paragraph is SUPER interesting to me.

HURRY UP POST OFFICE.

EDIT: Aaron, I'll have you know you are PERSONALLY responsible for me staying in this hobby, and thereby spending thousands of dollars I really didnt need to spend. I havent even read this, and am already more engaged with 30K/40K than I have felt in a year+.