Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Cleanse And Purify]

I realize this is not the place to start up arguments about the skubbiest of skub, AoS. For what it's worth, I'm glad others enjoy it. I do not, but I can still play Warhammer Online and Total Warhammer and WFRP 2nd edition, so I'm quite happy with that. I will admit, I liked the Flesh-Eater Courts background, and Fyreslayers would be cool if they weren't all fricking naked.

 

I do maintain that 40k End Times is not to my liking. I prefer the setting to remain a setting, and not a storyline.

[Marshal Rohr]

You've gotta wonder if he views the Primarchs with such detached emotion, but in person he treats them like sons... maybe the custodes should take a step back and wonder if he feels that way about them. The Primarchs are closer in function and ability to the Emperor than the custodes, so all that arrogance about being favored by the emperor may not be reality. The Primarchs thinks he loves them like sons, and they couldn't be more wrong. I hope the custodes get taken down a peg too after all that :cuss they talked about the Fists and Blood Angels.

 

Edit: The Emperor is a lot more like Anthony Hopkins in West World than Aragon in Return of the King. I think many of us who've been around for this whole ride (and even the authors before they kind of unified the series arch) viewed the Emperor as an Aragon. Flawed, sometimes callous, sometimes miscalculates, but ultimately a good man who tries to be a good king. What ADB has shown us is that the Emperor is far more like Anthony Hopkins. His monologue in last weeks episode could've been ported directly into this book and it still would've flowed as if ADB wrote it. A creator fighting a losing battle against his creations.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I think anyone who believes that 'all hope is definitively lost in the 41st Millennium' based on an author's afterword, which seems to me to be by definition subjective, is just reading whatever they want from cherry picked portions of a piece of work. 

Can there still be hope for humanity in the 41st Millennium? Sure, why not? The Emperor is essentially proven to be fallible in his long term precognition at this point ... so ... 

I look at the epilogue this way. The dude's just seen his dreams fall apart, what he thinks is his last hail mary pass to the endzone falling short and a turnover on downs with 10 seconds left to go in the game. I'd say that'd warrant being pretty freaking depressed. Does that mean that, all of a sudden, there are no paths to victory? No carrots to dangle in front of the horse? In my opinion, no, but that's why Chaos players can take it like so and people who like the inevitable destruction of the race/empire can as well, and there's nothing wrong with that per se. 

It's written right there - ADB said it himself in the afterword. The mystery and possibility of the setting is, in part, what makes it appealing. 

No spoilers, but the last two things the Emperor says to Diocletian, coupled with the rumors of who's coming back and who's not that have been floating around here and elsewhere, and with what one might believe it means to be a son of the God of an entire race (hello, Primarchs) ... leaves the door wide open, from my point of view. Others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't particularly bother me, but ... just because the island Emps wanted to get to isn't a viable destination anymore, doesn't mean there aren't any other ports to dock with in spite of the storm he and his race have become caught in. 

And it doesn't even have to be him at the helm anymore.

[Scribe]

The Imperium was doomed to failure long before this book was written, I struggle to understand how people didn't get this already.

 

Like I said, GW has led you astray. Chaos wins, it was always to be this way EVENTUALLY.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

And you're welcome to that belief. I don't think that any setting should be as strictly adherent to its roots - maybe for some people if GW just scrapped everything and republish RT/1st ed/2nd ed and called it good that would be fine for them, but I don't see that happening, so a statement either way seems to me to be ... well, just your opinion. And you can have your opinion, I won't begrudge anyone for having one.

[Marshal Rohr]

Scribe, as a loyal chaos fan, likes the scenario because it's good for his view of the universe but I don't think he's saying every single thing should always be chaos winning. Like the great crusade could be covered and chaos has no big role in that or Armageddon 2 and 3 where the Imperium wins during the second war and the third is the last bastion of old school 3rd edition fluff.

 

It's only the 13th BC where chaos is ready to come against the Imperium full steam. That means there is ten thousand years of war stories and stuff where the Imperium can be outright triumphalist in their depiction. It's just the last story where they need to be fighting for their lives.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

And my point is that if one wants to believe that the Imperium falls in the end and the galaxy is consumed by Chaos, that's fine, but that's by no means what will happen, and that's part of the allure of 40k. I mean, I don't want to bust out TBA and Eldrad in the final words of that series, but I can...

[Marshal Rohr]

And my point is that if one wants to believe that the Imperium falls in the end and the galaxy is consumed by Chaos, that's fine, but that's by no means what will happen, and that's part of the allure of 40k. I mean, I don't want to bust out TBA and Eldrad in the final words of that series, but I can...

Feel free, I'm not going to ever read them after following the thread here :D

[Scribe]

Look, unless ADB comes in here and says 'yeah I convinced all the guys on the team and the head of IP that chaos should win' then...he didn't CHANGE a thing.

 

ADB sticks to the fluff. Chaos winning is not a change. It just ISNT.

 

The Imperium having a hope? That would be change.

 

The Emperor pulling a Sigmar? That would be a change.

 

Chaos as eventually bringing down the Imperium? That's just canon man, a matter of time, which for Chaos? Well that's eternal.

 

Again. I'm not saying you have to like it, but this has ALWAYS been the core of the setting.

 

Chaos, will, win.

[Scribe]

Oh and I'm for sure not saying chaos should always win, one would have to be willfully ignorant of the setting to ignore all the wins the imperium gets.

 

I'm saying within the fullness of time, Chaos wins.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

And you can believe that all you want, with all of your heart, too. Doesn't really make it canon. Of course, if you have any real sources or true word of god statements (and no, an afterword from an author who isn't a lore authority per se), shoot. Otherwise - hey, if you want to believe Chaos will, that's fine by me, it's a free world/board man. Do whatever you want.

[mc warhammer]

And you can believe that all you want, with all of your heart, too. Doesn't really make it canon. Of course, if you have any real sources or true word of god statements (and no, an afterword from an author who isn't a lore authority per se), shoot. Otherwise - hey, if you want to believe Chaos will, that's fine by me, it's a free world/board man. Do whatever you want.

 

but hasn't it always been written as "teetering on the verge of collapse"? if we take that expression as intended, it means a matter of when not if. and the answer to when is usually "soon". from that understanding of the setting, scribe is right.

 

the thing is, unless gw pulls a complete 180 on policy and decides to change the setting by moving past "midnight", then you're also right. chaos will never actually "win" in any way meaningful to the audience.

[Tyriks]

And my point is that if one wants to believe that the Imperium falls in the end and the galaxy is consumed by Chaos, that's fine, but that's by no means what will happen, and that's part of the allure of 40k. I mean, I don't want to bust out TBA and Eldrad in the final words of that series, but I can...

The BRB and codices have been telling us it was only a matter of time before the Imperium falls since at least 3rd ed (I have heard that it was in 2nd and RT also but I haven't seen for myself) in very clear terms. I think 7th might have left it out but it was always explicit in the older BRBs. 7th does say the Imperium is headed for an "unrelenting doom."

 

I don't know if any of those references specified humanity would go extinct, or if simply the Imperium would fall apart. I don't have any of the older BRBs at hand.

[Kelborn]

And that's the second or third thread within 24h discussing 40k and the possibility of chaos or Imperium winning.

 

Can someone please explain to me what actual happens with Drach'Nyen? It believes itself to be a man? What?

 

You can also pm me if it is a huge spoiler. Will read it nevertheless. ^^

[Marshal Loss]

This trend is nothing new. At the HH Weekender, in a seminar focusing on the origins of the Horus Heresy, FW's Tony Cottrell did an excellent presentation showing how in the 70s/80s American sci-fi was all about exploration and hope whereas European sci-fi was doom and gloom - 40k/30k grew out of this. Even the foundations, as crazy as they were, were overwhelmingly negative for the Imperium - the Emperor was always a corpse-Emperor (his 40k incarnation is how he was originally conceived), the Imperium was always doomed, etc. I am very surprised that this bothers anybody. Since when is this news? Where is a source other than some obscure 'star child' stuff from the 80's that says there's a chance the Imperium is going to recover or live out forever?

 

I will say though that I always interpreted it as that when the time of ending came, the Imperium would collapse - but not just because of Chaos, but because of the multitude of threats that assail their every border. Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Chaos, Tau, all are pushing in and the Imperium will inevitably collapse with time. Chaos is just the most prominent of these threats because the perpetrators are a dark mirror of everything the Imperium stands for, their sins literally come back to haunt them.

 

All Master of Mankind has done is flesh this out (although simplifying what this book does for the setting with 'all this has done' feels like a gross understatement), and given much needed background on the Emperor's motivations and plans - not to mention another piece in the puzzle that is Warmaster Abaddon.

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

And that's the second or third thread within 24h discussing 40k and the possibility of chaos or Imperium winning.

Can someone please explain to me what actual happens with Drach'Nyen? It believes itself to be a man? What?

You can also pm me if it is a huge spoiler. Will read it nevertheless. ^^

 

You sure you want the spoiler? It's far better when you read the book. Here it is though.

 

 

 

The Daemon called the End of Empires - Drach'nyen - is the echo of the first murder done in cold blood. It's a super powerful Daemon disconnected from the four 'Choirs' (hosts of the gods) that basically hunts the Emperor in the book - it's the big bad guy in Master of Mankind, and it kills many Servitors, Sisters of Silence, Custodes, Titans...the list goes on. At the end, they fight and the Daemon is too strong for the Emperor to kill , so he pulls the Daemon in its form as a sword out of his chest and throws it into one of his Custodes. He then tells the Custodes to run, and the Custodes, with the Daemon now caged within him, sprints off into the Webway, with his fate unknown.

 

For the keen among us, this potentially answers the 'Golden Stranger' leading Abaddon to the sword in the crypts.

 

 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

[Kelborn]

Thanks!

 

Didn't see that coming.

No worries, mate. Until MoM is released in my country, I'll have already forgotten this. ^^

[mc warhammer]

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

i don't see any sore spots? or anyone doing anything except backing up their point of view with the text- something you actually requested.

 

the starchild lore has all but been abandoned and, along with guilliman's wound healing, more of a superstition than anything else.

[Marshal Loss]

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

 

Is that it? Is the Starchild prophecy your case?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

i don't see any sore spots? or anyone doing anything except backing up their point of view with the text- something you actually requested.

 

the starchild lore has all but been abandoned and, along with guilliman's wound healing, more of a superstition than anything else.

 

Indeed it has - but my point is that it's never been a 100% 'Chaos Will Win Guaranteed Take It To The Bank' type deal. Close, but as I've already pointed out with my football analogy - the game isn't quite over, and to read an absolute conclusion out of MoM's ending seems ... well, I mean, you can if you want, but flouting it as The Truth seems like shoving some version of canon down other people's throat.

 

 

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

 

Is that it? Is the Starchild prophecy your case?

 

Case for what, exactly? Do expound.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

i don't see any sore spots? or anyone doing anything except backing up their point of view with the text- something you actually requested.

 

the starchild lore has all but been abandoned and, along with guilliman's wound healing, more of a superstition than anything else.

 

Indeed it has - but my point is that it's never been a 100% 'Chaos Will Win Guaranteed Take It To The Bank' type deal. Close, but as I've already pointed out with my football analogy - the game isn't quite over, and to read an absolute conclusion out of MoM's ending seems ... well, I mean, you can if you want, but flouting it as The Truth seems like shoving some version of canon down other people's throat.

 

 

sure, the fiction has at times offered in-universe rumours and superstitions that would give members of the imperium hope. against the established back drop, they do read as fool's hope, though i can't really blame readers for focusing on those tidbits if the fatalism of 40k isn't personally appealing. it does fly in the face of the majority of the setting- but i suppose that's what hope does.

 

but...this is the third (maybe fourth) time you've told people not to use mom's ending as proof of the grim dark destiny of 40k. i've yet to see one person, other than you, mention the ending/epilogue in support of that point.

[Athrawes]

Here are some of my favorite bits, concerning how the Emperor views his Primarchs, and his relationship to them:

 

The emperor does not view himself as the Primarchs Father. He over and over hammers home his viewpoints that the Primarchs are weapons and Generals, not his Children. in fact he verbatim says to Arkhan Land in regards to Angron "It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlord and generals bred to serve a purpose."

Additionally, he refers to the Primarchs as "The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools."

To convey this theme, He pretty much never refers to them by their names, but instead by their numeral designation or "it". For instance, referring to his upcoming duel fight with "the sixteenth" referring to Horus.

When investigating the extent of Angron's degradation, and the effect of the nails, he mutters to himself that "A damaged Primarch is better than no Primarch" And that he thinks he will return "the Twelfth" to It's legion.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

 

I'm intrigued that it's such a sore spot with many members, to be honest - that it must be their way or the highway, as they say. I mean, even in the attempt to reinforce your way, by referencing that ancient piece of lore about the Starchild prophecy, you've basically made my point for me...

i don't see any sore spots? or anyone doing anything except backing up their point of view with the text- something you actually requested.

 

the starchild lore has all but been abandoned and, along with guilliman's wound healing, more of a superstition than anything else.

 

Indeed it has - but my point is that it's never been a 100% 'Chaos Will Win Guaranteed Take It To The Bank' type deal. Close, but as I've already pointed out with my football analogy - the game isn't quite over, and to read an absolute conclusion out of MoM's ending seems ... well, I mean, you can if you want, but flouting it as The Truth seems like shoving some version of canon down other people's throat.

 

 

sure, the fiction has at times offered in-universe rumours and superstitions that would give members of the imperium hope. against the established back drop, they do read as fool's hope, though i can't really blame readers for focusing on those tidbits if the fatalism of 40k isn't personally appealing. it does fly in the face of the majority of the setting- but i suppose that's what hope does.

 

but...this is the third (maybe fourth) time you've told people not to use mom's ending as proof of the grim dark destiny of 40k. i've yet to see one person, other than you, mention the ending/epilogue in support of that point.

 

No offense, but ... if you think that this site represents the majority of opinions or even a significant fraction of them regarding a novel many people have yet to read ... you see where this is going. I already mentioned the ending of TBA - whether people like or dislike the series is largely irrelevant, but for posterity's sake, here's what was presented at the end:

 

You do not have the power of the Acuity. You do not have the foresight of the Cabal. We stand alone. Your actions could doom us all. The mon-keigh have proven again that they will not be manipulated. They will see us all dead before the end. Already it is two thousand cycles since the fall. Every pass brings us closer to extinction. The lights in the crystal danced with agitation. A period of instability awaits the humans’ empire, and they may not recover. If they do, they shall hunt us to destruction.

‘Not all threads say this is so.’ Ulthran picked up his helm and held it under his arm. ‘Humanity is our best chance, but it is not the only one. There are many more worlds of the krork,’ said Ulthran. ‘Beasts never die, they are only banished. The cry of “Mag Uruk Thraka” echoes still in the Othersea. Should one rise again, the greenskins may yet fulfil their original purpose. New races may evolve in time. There is hope while we live.’

You are arrogant. You are but one alone against eternity.

‘One mind is sometimes all it takes to change fate,’ Ulthran said defiantly.

Again - am I claiming that all will end well? No, and if anyone thinks that I'm trying to do so is creating a superbly crafted strawman. But my argument against reading into it wholly as The Truth, even contextualized, has already been detailed in previous posts...

[Marshal Loss]

With pleasure, although I suspect it is you who needs to be justifying their opinion more so than I.

 

The Starchild prophecy does not contradict anything that happened in this book, so your point was not made for you. The perpetuals already exist in the galaxy, which is essentially the Starchild rebooted. I am simply curious as to where you get your evidence? Eldrad Ulthuan's shtick has always been his rebellion against fate.

 

Your points:

 

I think anyone who believes that 'all hope is definitively lost in the 41st Millennium' based on an author's afterword, which seems to me to be by definition subjective, is just reading whatever they want from cherry picked portions of a piece of work.

 

Nobody is basing this on the afterword. Innumerable army books and novels have detailed this for decades. It is nothing new.

 

 

Can there still be hope for humanity in the 41st Millennium? Sure, why not? The Emperor is essentially proven to be fallible in his long term precognition at this point ... so

 

Very true - but as MoM says, he can see the ending, simply not the journey in between. The whole development of a psychic race plot point has been around forever, and it is inevitably happening. There is no avoiding that. Do you disagree with the Emperor's assertion that they're doomed as a result of it? If so, what substantiates that?

 

 

I look at the epilogue this way. The dude's just seen his dreams fall apart, what he thinks is his last hail mary pass to the endzone falling short and a turnover on downs with 10 seconds left to go in the game. I'd say that'd warrant being pretty freaking depressed. Does that mean that, all of a sudden, there are no paths to victory? No carrots to dangle in front of the horse? In my opinion, no, but that's why Chaos players can take it like so and people who like the inevitable destruction of the race/empire can as well, and there's nothing wrong with that per se. 
 

 

That is false. The whole reason he fights so hard, for so long - invests every single one of his most precious resources, begins sacrificing souls to the Golden Throne just for the chance to fight there himself - he knows from the very beginning that if the Webway Project fails, all is lost. It is repeated again and again and again. It is not a flippant remark made in dismay at the end of the book, it is the inevitable conclusion to the war. The only war that matters.

 

There have never been any paths to victory. The Imperium has always been doomed. Since when has 40k been remotely about hope? You demanded sources, feel free to offer some that support your view - that there is hope, that humanity can win or at least endure indefinitely.

 

This idea that Chaos players only like this because we win in the end is ludicrous. The setting will never end, because GW will never let it happen, and if it does happen - if we get AoS style End Times - I for one would be extremely displeased. It is a setting, not a story, and the setting is the grimdark far future where humanity is doomed. The dying of the light.

 

 

It's written right there - ADB said it himself in the afterword. The mystery and possibility of the setting is, in part, what makes it appealing. 

No spoilers, but the last two things the Emperor says to Diocletian, coupled with the rumors of who's coming back and who's not that have been floating around here and elsewhere, and with what one might believe it means to be a son of the God of an entire race (hello, Primarchs) ... leaves the door wide open, from my point of view. Others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't particularly bother me, but ... just because the island Emps wanted to get to isn't a viable destination anymore, doesn't mean there aren't any other ports to dock with in spite of the storm he and his race have become caught in. 

And it doesn't even have to be him at the helm anymore.

 

The irony of you mentioning the afterword is not lost on me.

 

In any case, if that's what you want to believe, that is totally fine - I know this universe means different things to different people. I'd be interested to hear what 'islands' exist for the Imperium now, and how, in your mind, humanity has a hope after this. Their development into a psychic race is not a new thing, history repeats and well...look at the Eldar. I mean no disrespect, but your opinion feels unsubstantiated.

 

Your main point is that 'Chaos players really like this which is why they believe it'. That is simply not the case, and I have nothing else to say on the matter as it feels to me that this thread on an astonishingly good novel is being derailed by petty arguments. I loved the novel, and I hope others read it and love it too.

 

But if you have evidence - army books, novels, concrete opinions other than 'the setting is better if we don't know what happens,' by all means, post away and I'll read when I come home. The overwhelming majority of the setting is against you, and I'm sorry if you don't like the way it is. But if you disagree with my evidence/opinion, and I clearly disagree with yours, we'll just have to agree to disagree mon ami, and I mean that with all possible respect.

[mc warhammer]

 

No offense, but ... if you think that this site represents the majority of opinions or even a significant fraction of them regarding a novel many people have yet to read ... you see where this is going. I already mentioned the ending of TBA - whether people like or dislike the series is largely irrelevant, but for posterity's sake, here's what was presented at the end:

 

You do not have the power of the Acuity. You do not have the foresight of the Cabal. We stand alone. Your actions could doom us all. The mon-keigh have proven again that they will not be manipulated. They will see us all dead before the end. Already it is two thousand cycles since the fall. Every pass brings us closer to extinction. The lights in the crystal danced with agitation. A period of instability awaits the humans’ empire, and they may not recover. If they do, they shall hunt us to destruction.

‘Not all threads say this is so.’ Ulthran picked up his helm and held it under his arm. ‘Humanity is our best chance, but it is not the only one. There are many more worlds of the krork,’ said Ulthran. ‘Beasts never die, they are only banished. The cry of “Mag Uruk Thraka” echoes still in the Othersea. Should one rise again, the greenskins may yet fulfil their original purpose. New races may evolve in time. There is hope while we live.’

You are arrogant. You are but one alone against eternity.

‘One mind is sometimes all it takes to change fate,’ Ulthran said defiantly.

Again - am I claiming that all will end well? No, and if anyone thinks that I'm trying to do so is creating a superbly crafted strawman. But my argument against reading into it wholly as The Truth, even contextualized, has already been detailed in previous posts...

 

 

there's an odd disconnect here, where i type one thing and receive an answer about a different thing. i'll let that speak for itself and bow out of our exchange.