Master of Mankind - Review or Spoilers?

[Karthak]

And my point is that if one wants to believe that the Imperium falls in the end and the galaxy is consumed by Chaos, that's fine, but that's by no means what will happen, and that's part of the allure of 40k. I mean, I don't want to bust out TBA and Eldrad in the final words of that series, but I can...

We've already seen what that looks like. It was the End Times, and I haven't been able to find a single person who didn't think it was terrible.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

With pleasure, although I suspect it is you who needs to be justifying their opinion more so than I.

 

 

...

 

 

 

The Starchild prophecy does not contradict anything that happened in this book, so your point was not made for you. The perpetuals already exist in the galaxy, which is essentially the Starchild rebooted. I am simply curious as to where you get your evidence? Eldrad Ulthuan's shtick has always been his rebellion against fate.

 

Evidence for what, exactly? Following down below...I'll respond inline...

 

 

Your points:

 

I think anyone who believes that 'all hope is definitively lost in the 41st Millennium' based on an author's afterword, which seems to me to be by definition subjective, is just reading whatever they want from cherry picked portions of a piece of work.

 

Nobody is basing this on the afterword. Innumerable army books and novels have detailed this for decades. It is nothing new.

 

 

My point there was to merely indicate that if the afterword or the epilogue were what pushed one over, it's not the best piece of evidence, in my opinion, because there are still a few unknowns floating around out there. A lot of these unknowns are probably fool's gold, but there are probably some goodies in the bag.

 

 

 

Can there still be hope for humanity in the 41st Millennium? Sure, why not? The Emperor is essentially proven to be fallible in his long term precognition at this point ... so

 

Very true - but as MoM says, he can see the ending, simply not the journey in between. The whole development of a psychic race plot point has been around forever, and it is inevitably happening. There is no avoiding that. Do you disagree with the Emperor's assertion that they're doomed as a result of it? If so, what substantiates that?

 

 

Incorrect. He saw an ending: the epilogue makes it very clear that he does not know what will happen next. I'm not going to sit here and claim he didn't do his homework and missed X or Y instead of putting all of his eggs into the Webway basket - but even during his discussion with Ra, he points out that there could be other appealing choices or end results that he could encounter on his decided journey. That seems to be enough of an indication to me that there were other paths to be taken.  Perhaps none that seemed worthy or achievable enough, but that's just speculation on my part. For whatever reason(s), he chose the path of the Imperial Webway, based on said homework, and I'm fine with that.

 

 

 

I look at the epilogue this way. The dude's just seen his dreams fall apart, what he thinks is his last hail mary pass to the endzone falling short and a turnover on downs with 10 seconds left to go in the game. I'd say that'd warrant being pretty freaking depressed. Does that mean that, all of a sudden, there are no paths to victory? No carrots to dangle in front of the horse? In my opinion, no, but that's why Chaos players can take it like so and people who like the inevitable destruction of the race/empire can as well, and there's nothing wrong with that per se. 
 

 

That is false. The whole reason he fights so hard, for so long - invests every single one of his most precious resources, begins sacrificing souls to the Golden Throne just for the chance to fight there himself - he knows from the very beginning that if the Webway Project fails, all is lost. It is repeated again and again and again. It is not a flippant remark made in dismay at the end of the book, it is the inevitable conclusion to the war. The only war that matters.

 

 

What is false? That there are no paths to victory? Despite the fact that the Emperor himself outright states that he doesn't know what will happen next? 

I think that a being of such magnitude will be affected when his proclaimed Great Work fails, and that perhaps he did not have the ability or foresight to see any other possible future. Maybe he really couldn't see them - he's admitted to not being omniscient (cue the well-known dream passage from The Outcast Dead), so that's certainly a likelihood.

 

 

There have never been any paths to victory. The Imperium has always been doomed. Since when has 40k been remotely about hope? You demanded sources, feel free to offer some that support your view - that there is hope, that humanity can win or at least endure indefinitely.

 

Provided in my post above, but to address this - it does seem like my point is missing the mark. Never did I claim that 40k is about hope; the existence of hope within the setting doesn't make said emotion the focal point of it. So I think I'm quite certain when I say that's not "my view" ... 

 

This idea that Chaos players only like this because we win in the end is ludicrous. The setting will never end, because GW will never let it happen, and if it does happen - if we get AoS style End Times - I for one would be extremely displeased. It is a setting, not a story, and the setting is the grimdark far future where humanity is doomed. The dying of the light.

Uh...okay? I didn't say that only Chaos players like this? Nor did I say that the setting will end? 

 

 

It's written right there - ADB said it himself in the afterword. The mystery and possibility of the setting is, in part, what makes it appealing. 

No spoilers, but the last two things the Emperor says to Diocletian, coupled with the rumors of who's coming back and who's not that have been floating around here and elsewhere, and with what one might believe it means to be a son of the God of an entire race (hello, Primarchs) ... leaves the door wide open, from my point of view. Others are welcome to disagree, and that doesn't particularly bother me, but ... just because the island Emps wanted to get to isn't a viable destination anymore, doesn't mean there aren't any other ports to dock with in spite of the storm he and his race have become caught in. 

And it doesn't even have to be him at the helm anymore.

 

The irony of you mentioning the afterword is not lost on me.

 

In any case, if that's what you want to believe, that is totally fine - I know this universe means different things to different people. I'd be interested to hear what 'islands' exist for the Imperium now, and how, in your mind, humanity has a hope after this. Their development into a psychic race is not a new thing, history repeats and well...look at the Eldar. I mean no disrespect, but your opinion feels unsubstantiated.

 

 

You're asking me to provide specifics on some perceived existing theories that I have ready to whip out at a whim. I'm sorry to disappoint you - I don't have much at all. If that means that I shouldn't offer any dissenting opinions, then whatever, I guess that's fine by me.

 

 

Your main point is that 'Chaos players really like this which is why they believe it'. That is simply not the case, and I have nothing else to say on the matter as it feels to me that this thread on an astonishingly good novel is being derailed by petty arguments. I loved the novel, and I hope others read it and love it too.

 

But if you have evidence - army books, novels, concrete opinions other than 'the setting is better if we don't know what happens,' by all means, post away and I'll read when I come home. The overwhelming majority of the setting is against you, and I'm sorry if you don't like the way it is. But if you disagree with my evidence/opinion, and I clearly disagree with yours, we'll just have to agree to disagree mon ami, and I mean that with all possible respect.

 

That's...not my main point at all? Don't know how I could've made it clearer, but if you have suggestions, throw them my way in a PM or something.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

The 14th interlectual flame war crusade has begun!

[Legatus]

Very true - but as MoM says, he can see the ending, simply not the journey in between. The whole development of a psychic race plot point has been around forever, and it is inevitably happening. There is no avoiding that. Do you disagree with the Emperor's assertion that they're doomed as a result of it? If so, what substantiates that?

(...)

The whole reason he fights so hard, for so long - invests every single one of his most precious resources, begins sacrificing souls to the Golden Throne just for the chance to fight there himself - he knows from the very beginning that if the Webway Project fails, all is lost. It is repeated again and again and again. It is not a flippant remark made in dismay at the end of the book, it is the inevitable conclusion to the war. The only war that matters.

 

There have never been any paths to victory. The Imperium has always been doomed. Since when has 40k been remotely about hope? You demanded sources, feel free to offer some that support your view - that there is hope, that humanity can win or at least endure indefinitely.

 

 

Since the very first Rogue Trader rulebook the agenda of the Emperor has been to guide and protect mankind so that it can transition to a state of psychic ability when it will no longer be threatened by Chaos.

 

 

 

"For countless ages he hid within humanity, nurturing his powers and waiting. At last, over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful. Without his guidance he realised the emerging race of psychics would fall prey to the dangers he had already faced, the perils of entities that fed upon psychic energy, or who used that energy for their own horrific purposes. So the Emperor emerged from long hiding, creating the Age of the Imperium over ten millennia ago in a series of wars now remembered by none save their victor. His rule has been a long and harsh one, for there is much at stake - the life of humanity itself. (...)

The Emperor understands the dangers that face his race, and has assumed the role which seems pre-ordained for him, that of its guardian. Perhaps he is a freak, or perhaps nature created him as the protector of ger metamorphosis. Either way, the Emperor is now the custodian of his race, and he alone bears the knowledge of its fate. To this end the Emperor maintains strict control over the development of humanity and contributes directly to its survival by utilising his powers. (...)

Without the Emperor there would be little space travel and no protection in a hostile universe. Left uncontrolled, the emerging race of psychic humans would become the unwittling vehicle of humanity's destruction. For there are many foul aliens which not only feed upon the life-force of other races, but which use that life-force as a means of opening portals in warp space, inflitrating populated planets via the poorly protected minds of inexperienced psykers. The Master of Mankind knows that to protect his race he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face. If thousands must endure pain and death for his sake, how considerable must be the agony of a creature whose body is all but destroyed, whose mind is encased inside a rotting shell and whose every thought is enslaved to the task of serving his race."

- 1st Edition 40K 'Rogue Trader' Rulebook, p. 135+138

 

 

 

That agenda has most recently been re-affirmed in the 2013 'Visions of Heresy':

 

 

 

"The Emperor sits on his throne on Earth and dreams of the future. He has single-handedly created the most awesome military force ever known. His genius mapped the genes and artifice of the primarchs and their Space Marine progeny. His brilliant mind conceived the Grand Plan: the marrying of the great Empires of terra and Mars and their Great Crusade to rescue mankind from the thrall of aliens and warp-beasts. It was the Emperor who helped realise the full potential of the Navigators and enabled humanity to travel vast distances through the warp without peril. But his work is not finished and now he dreams and his vast intellect calculates the destiny of mankind. Time is against him. His precognitive powers are fading; the pressure to maintain the galaxy-wide signal of the Astronomican grows daily; the future has become clouded and dark. He is aware that others like him are aborning, but weaker than he, less able to fend off the seductive embrace of the Warp and the unknown horrors within.

It is upon these emerging psykers that the Emperor has focused his attention. Now is teh time for him to order the fabrication of the Psy-Engines and Occulum Test Stations, the devices that will search out the inert psyker genes within the populace. Emerging and latent psykers can thence be trained and purified, protected from the dangers of the warp and the malignant entities therein. Mankind's destiny is a fragile thing and only the Emperor can guide it well and safely forward."

- The Horus Heresy: Visions of Heresy, Book One, p. 10

 

 

 

So the birth of a new race of psychic aware humans would not be the end of mankind, it woul dbe it's salvation, what the Emperor is waiting for. Chaos can never be conventionally defeated, because it comes from a hell dimension where the armies of the Imperium cannot travel. The goal is just for mankind to persevere long enough, protected and guided by the Emperor, to evolve to a state where Chaos is no longer a threat to them. That may take tens of thousands of years, or even millions. Or it may never really happen at all. But that is why the fighting will go on.

 

The webway was just a side project. It would have allowed mankind to travel safely between their worlds, not being reliant on the flow of the warp and subject to the dangers therein. It would also have allowed the Emperor to remain active, and not required to maintain the Astronomican. But since the webway project was thwarted, it is necessary for the Emperor to maintain it after all.

 

The webway project is not mentioned in any of the 40K lore as far as I am aware. It was made up specifically for the Horus Heresy novels. It is not the ultimate agenda of the Emperor, merely a mcguffin to spin some stories around.

 

 

The emperor does not view himself as the Primarchs Father. He over and over hammers home his viewpoints that the Primarchs are weapons and Generals, not his Children. in fact he verbatim says to Arkhan Land in regards to Angron "It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlord and generals bred to serve a purpose."

 

Additionally, he refers to the Primarchs as "The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools."

 

To convey this theme, He pretty much never refers to them by their names, but instead by their numeral designation or "it". For instance, referring to his upcoming duel fight with "the sixteenth" referring to Horus.

 

When investigating the extent of Angron's degradation, and the effect of the nails, he mutters to himself that "A damaged Primarch is better than no Primarch" And that he thinks he will return "the Twelfth" to It's legion.

 

 

In 'Vengeful Spirit' the Emperor refers to the Primarchs by their names and nicknames when talking with Malcador. So there probably is some truth to what A D-B had said earlier. The Emperor appears differently and talks differently to different people. When he speaks with Malcador he is very much talking about his sons and is calling them by name. But when speaking to a Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus, he is speaking of them in terms of his projects, refering to them by their technical designation.

[MrDarth151]

 

That is false. The whole reason he fights so hard, for so long - invests every single one of his most precious resources, begins sacrificing souls to the Golden Throne just for the chance to fight there himself - he knows from the very beginning that if the Webway Project fails, all is lost. It is repeated again and again and again. It is not a flippant remark made in dismay at the end of the book, it is the inevitable conclusion to the war. The only war that matters.

 

Which is weird, since there is no reason Webway Project should actually matter that much.

 

 

 

There have never been any paths to victory. The Imperium has always been doomed. Since when has 40k been remotely about hope? You demanded sources, feel free to offer some that support your view - that there is hope, that humanity can win or at least endure indefinitely.

 

As you wish. Let us start with 7th edition rulebook.

 

 

Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of machinery, the Emperor’s mind stretches out through space and time – a light in a vast gulf of blackness. Should that spark of life ever be extinguished – should the Throne fail in its mysterious purpose – then Mankind would surely be lost. But as long as the Emperor sits there, in silent vigil, there yet remains a glimmer of hope...

 

 

Although this may be Mankind’s darkest hour – all is not lost. While the will of the Emperor is still bound within the Golden Throne, there yet shines a light in the darkness.

 

Mankind stands on the verge of an evolutionary change tens of thousands of years in the making. If Humanity can survive the trauma of change, it can cast off the mundane

shackles of its current form to begin a new epoch of psionic mastery, an era of wonderment and the dawning of a hitherto unseen golden age.

 

Utterly cut off and alone, he has assumed the role preordained for him as guardian of Humanity and protector of its metamorphosis. The Master of Mankind knows that he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such a time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face from the Warp without him.

 

There is actually more of it spread throughout various books. So do tell, what about these screams "Inevitable fall to the Chaos Gods no matter what"?

[hopkins]

The 14th interlectual flame war crusade has begun!

Words for the word god

[skarn]

I just finished the book, and I'm afraid to say its the first ADB book that I've disliked.

To be fair, the prose is up to his usual high standards, and there are a lot of interesting ideas thrown about, but I just really disliked it. After finishing, I still have no idea how a 32 thousand year old warlord knows so little of human psychology. The more of the Heresy series I read, the more it's like a bloated Paradise Lost with none of Milton's nuance or philosophical introspection.

And the shoe horning of 40k's lamest character into a story that has so much going on without him...

Maybe it's just me reading themes that aren't there and setting unrealistic expectations for the author? 40k at it's core is about Chaos and the Imperium. I get the feeling of inevitable doom that Chaos in the fluff (if not the tabletop!) is supposed to invoke, but that makes far flung hopes like the Star Child or the Thorian philosophy or the Termius Decree so interesting. Having a word of god statement on the inevitability of the setting really just makes me wish they would hurry up and AoS the whole thing into 11 year old heroic World of Warcraft science fantasy like they did with the Old World, and I write that as a Bretonnian player!

Since ADB is a far better writer than I will ever be, I'll let him sum up for me;

The Imperium of the Dark Millennium, ten thousand years after the heresy, can't beat it's foes. That was never on the cards.

I find the idea of a single, objective truth for any 40k mystery a little tedious. The fun has always been in exploring the possibility and likelihood of various angles.

[Marshal Loss]

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

Vaddon, I think I owe you an apology and a better, more thought out post later. I actually agree with you on a fair few points, but the connection isn't there. I'll get back to you later with more sleep and more time. I think we have a fundamentally different way of looking at this setting.  Example being that where I see that him saying 'I don't know' equals that he simply has no idea what to do next (and that hasn't altered what he believed would happen if the Webway project failed), you see it as an opening of fate. It's an interesting difference in approach.

 

 

So the birth of a new race of psychic aware humans would not be the end of mankind, it woul dbe it's salvation, what the Emperor is waiting for. Chaos can never be conventionally defeated, because it comes from a hell dimension where the armies of the Imperium cannot travel. The goal is just for mankind to persevere long enough, protected and guided by the Emperor, to evolve to a state where Chaos is no longer a threat to them. That may take tens of thousands of years, or even millions. Or it may never really happen at all. But that is why the fighting will go on.

 

The goal was not to endure long enough, it was to severe humanity's connection to the warp then shepherd their growth into a psychic race, or at least that is what was stated in this book. Read Chapter 13 of MoM. Thanks for the sources though, your posts are always a good read. We're not in disagreement, although I may have articulated my thoughts poorly.

 

edit: phone autocorrecting, makes typing difficult

 

edit: v2 apologised via message to Vaddon for my post seeming a little crude, will type up thoughts properly to him later

[MrDarth151]

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

 

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

[Forward Assist]

So...

 

...anyone enjoy reading the book?

[Marshal Loss]

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

 

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

 

 

Nothing of the sort, I'm simply not interested in establishing any kind of dialogue with you given your posting tendencies. Enjoy your interpretation!

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

That's a treat coming from the guy who said he had low regard for anyone who doesn't understand the finer minutiae of ethical and moral theories unavailable to anyone who doesn't pursue it as a career in academia.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

That's a treat coming from the guy who said he had low regard for anyone who doesn't understand the finer minutiae of ethical and moral theories unavailable to anyone who doesn't pursue it as a career in academia.

 

 

I have low regard for anyone who wants to make moral argument without so much as checking wikipedia page on ethics. The complete lack of effort people put towards making moral arguments is a personal annoyance to me, that much is true. In similar way as astrophysicist would view a flat-earther, I suppose might be a good comparison.

 

 

 

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

 

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

 

 

Nothing of the sort, I'm simply not interested in establishing any kind of dialogue with you given your posting tendencies. Enjoy your interpretation!

 

 

If you say so. I was not aware I've had any particular posting tendencies.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

That's a treat coming from the guy who said he had low regard for anyone who doesn't understand the finer minutiae of ethical and moral theories unavailable to anyone who doesn't pursue it as a career in academia.

I have low regard for anyone who wants to make moral argument without so much as checking wikipedia page on ethics. The complete lack of effort people put towards making moral arguments is a personal annoyance to me, that much is true. In similar way as astrophysicist would view a flat-earther, I suppose might be a good comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

Darth, your ability to misinterpret basic information is a talent.

 

As is your ability to provide no counter-argument, nor anything supporting "The one true 40k" interepretation and yet somehow still acting smug after bringing literally nothing to the discussion.

Nothing of the sort, I'm simply not interested in establishing any kind of dialogue with you given your posting tendencies. Enjoy your interpretation!

If you say so. I was not aware I've had any particular posting tendencies.

Comparing ethics to astrophysics isn't a good comparison. The astrophysicist can prove himself right. You can't. I did liberal arts, too so I'm familiar with the desire to be taken as seriously as a positive science, but I gave up on that the minute I interviewed for a job.

[MrDarth151]

 

Comparing ethics to astrophysics isn't a good comparison. The astrophysicist can prove himself right. You can't. I did liberal arts, too so I'm familiar with the desire to be taken as seriously as a positive science, but I gave up on that the minute I interviewed for a job.

 

But the laws of logic still apply. I cannot be proven right beyond question (though the degree to which physics relies on theories, rather than proven facts would call that into question in their case), but neither can I be proven wrong beyond question. That is one of the basics of moral relativity, and one of the most basic laws of moral discourse.

 

Therefore, when I see statements like "Imperium is not moral, because it uses 'the end justifies the means' philosophy", I cannot help but cringe.

[A D-B]

Firstly, holy balls, thank you, gang. The reception for TMoM so far has blown any of my other novels out of the water. (No idea about sales, sorry, so don't ask.)  

 

 

The Imperium of the Dark Millennium, ten thousand years after the heresy, can't beat it's foes. That was never on the cards.

 

 

 

I find the idea of a single, objective truth for any 40k mystery a little tedious. The fun has always been in exploring the possibility and likelihood of various angles.

 

 

That's the exception that proves that rule, though - I mean, it's a major theme in 40K. One of the major themes. I realise 40K means a lot of things to different people, but one of the two key phrases that defines the setting is Two minutes to midnight. What do you think midnight is? If it's nothing bad, or something hopeful, why is it such a bad thing to be two minutes away from it? Context, people, context. Look at it from 30+ years of lore, not the threat of "End Times Age of Sigmar lol" etc. like a campaign we're going to all play through. We'll never see midnight, largely because of the second key phrase: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. It's a setting, not a storyline. Nothing's changing there, even if new releases spin their wheels faster, stuck in the Dark Millennium's mud.

 

There's practically nothing new in this book - and look at what the Emperor's own freaking last words convey - look at what they mean: they couldn't be better fashioned to create subjectivity in the future, and indeed the grim darkness of the far future.

 

There's a case of Storm meet Teacup here, from some posters. Especially, I've noticed, among peeps that haven't read it yet and are going by soundbites and half-explanations out of context.

[Petitioner's City]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but consider the metaphor the Emperor uses to explain his relationship to the primarchs and their relationship to him as 'Father'. He uses Geppetto and Pinocchio. That is telling, because it can mean 'distant creator', but it actually doesn't - in the story by Carlo Collodi or the Disney film, Geppetto is actually a man who believes in the humanity of his wooden son. Revisionist takes on Geppetto like Fables may also a play a role in this - the Father who is a tyrant and is consumed by societal improvement through new generations of 'sons' who are not sons. (*)

 

Indeed, I love that ADB - who creates these beautiful poetic pockets in the IP - has used such a metaphor (one that is part Faustian, part Golemic, part fablesque) for the Emperor and his creations. 

 

(*) watching pinnochio videos online, I discover there is a romantic teen Korean soap version. Amazing.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah that's more or less what I was trying to say - that this is how it's always been, or at least how I've always viewed it. In any case, whatever people's views, I'm glad to hear the overwhelming consensus is one of praise for the book. It deserves it.

Now finish Black Legion please.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, when does Black Legion come out? It's been 24 hours. No excuse it isn't done yet :P

[A D-B]

Yeah, when does Black Legion come out? It's been 24 hours. No excuse it isn't done yet

August!

And it's almost done. Been writing it for ages...

[MrDarth151]

 

That's the exception that proves that rule, though - I mean, it's a major theme in 40K. One of the major themes. I realise 40K means a lot of things to different people, but one of the two key phrases that defines the setting is Two minutes to midnight. What do you think midnight is? If it's nothing bad, or something hopeful, why is it such a bad thing to be two minutes away from it? Context, people, context. Look at it from 30+ years of lore, not the threat of "End Times Age of Sigmar lol" etc. like a campaign we're going to all play through. We'll never see midnight, largely because of the second key phrase: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. It's a setting, not a storyline. Nothing's changing there, even if new releases spin their wheels faster, stuck in the Dark Millennium's mud.

 

I do look at it from the entire lore perspective. I do not think that the Two minutes to midnight part of the setting must mean necessarily total and complete fall to Chaos specifically. Nor do I think it requires complete and utter denial of every bit of fluff that suggests that hope might exist for humanity.

 

And as a side note, I still don't quite get why the Webway Project would actually safe Mankind from predations of Chaos. It would help immensly with interstellar travel, yes, but communication would still need to rely on astropaths and people would still live in materium, where cults and heretics will appear.

 

 

There's a case of Storm meet Teacup here, from some posters. Especially, I've noticed, among peeps that haven't read it yet and are going by soundbites and half-explanations out of context.

 

I did say I wanted to read the novel, did I not? My trepidation stems from having talked to people who already read the book and whom opinions I trust being... well, let us say less than positive?

[Marshal Rohr]

If you master the webway you don't need astropaths. You can run a land line through it.

Yeah, when does Black Legion come out? It's been 24 hours. No excuse it isn't done yet

August!

And it's almost done. Been writing it for ages...

I'm just busting your balls! I'd rather see some models ;)

[Vesper]

Yeah, when does Black Legion come out? It's been 24 hours. No excuse it isn't done yet

August!

And it's almost done. Been writing it for ages...

Awesome !

And you talked about the evolution of Mankind into a psychic race. That's really cool :).

[A D-B]

 

 

That's the exception that proves that rule, though - I mean, it's a major theme in 40K. One of the major themes. I realise 40K means a lot of things to different people, but one of the two key phrases that defines the setting is Two minutes to midnight. What do you think midnight is? If it's nothing bad, or something hopeful, why is it such a bad thing to be two minutes away from it? Context, people, context. Look at it from 30+ years of lore, not the threat of "End Times Age of Sigmar lol" etc. like a campaign we're going to all play through. We'll never see midnight, largely because of the second key phrase: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. It's a setting, not a storyline. Nothing's changing there, even if new releases spin their wheels faster, stuck in the Dark Millennium's mud.

 

I do look at it from the entire lore perspective. I do not think that the Two minutes to midnight part of the setting must mean necessarily total and complete fall to Chaos specifically. Nor do I think it requires complete and utter denial of every bit of fluff that suggests that hope might exist for humanity.

 

And as a side note, I still don't quite get why the Webway Project would actually safe Mankind from predations of Chaos. It would help immensly with interstellar travel, yes, but communication would still need to rely on astropaths and people would still live in materium, where cults and heretics will appear.

 

You keep asking me questions that are literally answered in the book, or are simple setting truths. Look, I get it. I really do. And I by no means want to discontinue debate, but try to see this from my point of view. Authors don't answer every question about their books unto eternity, especially when the answers are already in the book or are simple truths of established lore. You're saying I'm ignoring X or changing Y, which I know is objectively untrue, as does my full inbox of other authors and IP folks confused or mystified about reactions like yours. An exact quote: "Some of the posters were tuned to a version of 40k that I don't think has ever existed."

 

In all seriousness, I get it. I do. But nothing has been confirmed (Jesus, everything in the book has a literal counterpoint later in the same book - even the use of "He calls the primarchs by their numbers so he must have hated them"), and nothing is Word of Godded unto Ye Final Dayes. Nothing has even really changed. No matter how much you insist I've changed everything, the problem here is that I know I haven't. No matter how much you say it's different from Collected Visions, it literally follows the reasoning and rhyming from that text, and my conversations with the author of that text. So there's no back and forth here, no dialogue - and even there was, can you imagine how tedious it is for me to be trying to explain a book that's just been released, where all of this is explained in the book (and, indeed, in 30 years of lore anyway) over and over again, with no hope of a resolution? 

 

This was always going to be a divisive book, because of its nature. I'm fine with that! That rocks on toast. I'm afraid, though, you're going to have to be fine with that, too. 

[Petitioner's City]

Also another excellent thing - many Terrans, including the Emperor, are noted as having dusky, darker or mixed racial skin colouring. Nice futurism touch there! It reminded me of this National Geographic project from a few years ago (although it is focused on the US), which is based around the idea that globalisation and migration are collapsing traditional ethnic boundaries. Anyway, Master of Mankind certainly accurately reflects our world, where the majority of the earth's population is not white, and a presumed future world that continues that paradigm. It reminds me of The Expanse novels and tv series that do the same!