Scribe Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 In the book, or originally? Book, not sure. Orginally, though, yes. The Emperor is the collective reincarnation of all the shamans of Neolithic humanity's various peoples, the first human psykers. The foul Warp entities that would become the four Great Powers of Chaos had not yet fully formed when the Emperor was born on Earth during prehistoric times, somewhere in ancient central Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the 8th Millennium B.C. Thats Realms of Chaos era stuff though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
norngahl Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 In the book :) Would like to know something about his youth, his "human side" if he has one. Thanks for the old fluff nontheless! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Waiiiit a second... The Emperor is de facto Apocalypse of X-Men? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yeah I asked if the Shaman reference was in the book at all, but nobody bit on the comment so I'm still waiting for my copy (3 deliveries made today to my house, none the book, all candles and such for my wife!!!) so I can check. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yeah I asked if the Shaman reference was in the book at all, but nobody bit on the comment so I'm still waiting for my copy (3 deliveries made today to my house, none the book, all candles and such for my wife!!!) so I can check. Nope it isn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yeah I asked if the Shaman reference was in the book at all, but nobody bit on the comment so I'm still waiting for my copy (3 deliveries made today to my house, none the book, all candles and such for my wife!!!) so I can check. Nope it isn't. Darn...oh well, cant win 'em all! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Old fluff is that he is gesalt of all the shamans old and that he is the st George who slayed the dragon(imprisoned on mars) having not mom yet I'd say the last church and outcast dead give good incite to his character without giving specifics. I don't think i want specifics with the big E I'd rather he stayed a bit of a mystery. IMO its been suggested that at one point he went in search of other perpetuals and was friendly with the eldrad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 His depiction smoozing at the dinner party with John Grammaticus or Oll Pius I found tedious. Made him seem politician-y. You dont have to get people to like you when you can literally make people do stuff Professor X style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I liked as they showed a new facet and a soft touch rather than power as that sort of thing is usually left to malcador probably why I like the last church so much he could have just impelled the priest to follow his will but didn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I loved the last church. It's like the Emperor turned off super mega saiyan 9000 mode and just wanted to enjoy a piece of human culture......before he torched it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 What was important about The Last Church was that we found out that the Emperor appreciated Talisker, so at least we know he has good taste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 I keep reading and time and again little gems like this prove why AD-B is the madman we cherish and love. I mean, come on, dare to touch THAT QUOTE and come off with a small scene like this? Glorious stuff. http://i.imgur.com/tTlSGBj.png Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Here are some of my favorite bits, concerning how the Emperor views his Primarchs, and his relationship to them: The emperor does not view himself as the Primarchs Father. He over and over hammers home his viewpoints that the Primarchs are weapons and Generals, not his Children. in fact he verbatim says to Arkhan Land in regards to Angron "It is not my son. None of them are. They are warlord and generals bred to serve a purpose." Additionally, he refers to the Primarchs as "The Creatures that call themselves my son. My necessary tools." To convey this theme, He pretty much never refers to them by their names, but instead by their numeral designation or "it". For instance, referring to his upcoming duel fight with "the sixteenth" referring to Horus. When investigating the extent of Angron's degradation, and the effect of the nails, he mutters to himself that "A damaged Primarch is better than no Primarch" And that he thinks he will return "the Twelfth" to It's legion. Right. Let's go with fan theory Emperor tells everyone what they want to hear, as it's the only way this book doesn't spit on 30 years of canon. In itself, this is original idea, and might explain the Emperor's supposed charisma. The problem lies in details presented. For one, how did that not explode in the Emperor's face before? For one, when people compared what they have been told? Imagine the following exchange: Horus: Hey, I want to see daddy. Custodes #1: Go away, Sixteenth. Horus: Wait, what did you call me? Custodes #2: Oh look, It speaks! Both: HAHAHAHAHA! Horus: ... [on the webway phone to Word Bearers] So, guys, about that Heresy... Or the other way: Horus: Hi, daddy! Custodes #1: Go away, Sixteenth. Emperor: Hey, Horu-bro! Custodes #1: Wait, what? Both: Brofist! Custodes #1: ...wait, this is totally not what you told us, are you lying to him? or, seeing you have him command everyone, even me, which places him on top, to me? Is what I believed a lie? Why is my world spinning so much? I don't know what to believe in anymore! As presented in this book, the great crusade would never got off the ground as the Emperor supposed lie-speak is far too undiplomatic and extreme to work anywhere but near the Emperor. Or is it so powerful that it also changes what the others speak so everyone gets sanitized version? Does it manifest in text messages from the Emperor? How come no one noticed what they hear personally and what they see sent by e-mail, or in relations from others, drastically differs? And even ignoring all of the above, why Emperor sees suitable to slander his sons? We know he likes them, not only from the talks to Magnus and Malcador (unless you jump through outlandish hoop claiming he both lies to his closest confidant, and that the two most powerful psykers in the Imperium who can see through his disguise still fall for the lie-speak) to the point he still has doubts about them being evil during Siege of Terra. If that is not enough, we know he loves them from his own internal monologue, with no one around to lie to, unless he lie-speaks himself too. Why the hell Emperor would slander people he loves to some lackeys that don't really matter to him, especially when he is supposedly confiding in them? Is Malcador just easily deceived dupe #482095, seeing Emperor never talked in terms of numbers to him, and lackey #2952356 is really his closest confidant? Or does the Emperor lie to said lackey creating distrust between various branches of Imperial military for no good reason, virtually ensuring someone will rebel down the line? Is it me or none of this makes any sense? The Heresy was a tragedy because it was a conflict between loving father and son, brother and brother. Because it was the end of hopeful dream. This book, taken at face value, ruins it, because it turns it into Nazi scientist having his experiment blow up in his face while not caring for anyone or anything. Love? Hope? How can you even talk about such things when even the lie-speak theory admits Emperor apparently not liked Horus even that much to not say the worst things about him without even blinking, showing zero hope, zero love, zero anything. Even such a small detail as portraying of Ullanor here makes no sense. Emperor was so impressed with Fulgrim he gave him the right to bear his Aquila. He rewarded Horus with naming his Legion Sons of Horus after Ullanor. Why would he do that if they were third and sixteenth 'its' all along? Was that a lie too? Did Fulgrim imagine being honoured in some lie-speech? Or was he really honoured, and then Emperor went and badmouthed him behind his back to random minion? No matter how you look at it, it flies apart at the seams Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4576750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Finished it. There was a lot I liked, but overall, I'm not sure what I think of the book. Despite having read many fine elucidating comments here on B&C, both by ADB and others, I find myself completely unsatisfied with the way the book portrayed the Emperor's relationship with the Primarchs. I'll have to think on it some more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Irbis, I'm not sure you get how not mind-bendy, but reality-bendy Emperor's power is. He's not only _seen_ as what the "receiver" person understands the Emperor as, but he also BECOMES that for them. He's not one thing we could ever pinpoint down and make a definitive statement "THIS is what the Emperor is", no. Because he is consistently written in a way in which His power is so huge that he even affects YOU as the reader. Because he IS what you think he IS. That's how you will see him and that's the kind of interaction you will get from him.The Detached Scientist to Land, the mere human under a lot of strife to the Head Sister, the mentor and philosopher to the Custodes, the Golden Man on the Throne to Legions, the Father to Primarchs, etc.Realizing this is exactly when it dawned on me why do the daemons call him Anathema. Because, as with the First Murder, the End of Empires, the daemon of fratricide, the daemons are One Thing, they can't even conceive being something else, they explicitly, vulgarly are out-and-out That One Thing They Symbolize, the One Thing that gave them birth. They are an idea made flesh, the Platonian shadow that ripped itself off the wall of the cave and now is chasing you down and you might not make it out back into the safety of daylight and you will always know now that the shadows are lies. But the Emperor is opposite of that. Is he omniscient, no. Is he omnipotent? Probably not. But he is Anathema, because he has the infinite potential of Mankind, he can be ANYTHING if the right sentient person interacts with him. It's as if he were a daemon of daemons, a daemon of Humanity itself, a living, breathing (though "some" would argue not, was that truth or perception?) soul of Mankind. Absolute Anathema to everything that can be only That, because in His face That is unmade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Actually, the Chaos Gods and their respective Daemons are also a duopoly of positives and negatives, if you read their 5th edition codex. While the Gods represent something malicious, they also represent something valorous... such as Khorne, who is the God of War, but also Courage and Honor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Im still working my way through the novel...but I very much dislike the Custodes attitudes, justified or not, so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I think the custodes and emperor's attitudes are easily the most divisive thing in the novel so far across several of the forums I visit. I imagine most of us just grew up with the 'like it says on the tin' info in the old codexes that there was a father/son thing going on and now we're adapting. I'm beginning my second read through tonight, it normally takes a few passes for me to pick up on some of the nuance as my first read through is always focused on new information. After 72 hours I'm feeling like a Downfall Hitler rant would be kind of cool coming from the Emperor talking about how he should've smothered the Primarchs in their cradles like Hitler talked about liquidating the General Officers. That movie is funny for meme's but damn if it isn't terrifying originally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Im still working my way through the novel...but I very much dislike the Custodes attitudes, justified or not, so far. I liked them because they showed how different they are from even Marines, not to mention mere humans. Marines are meta- or superhuman. But they were born and then crudely adjusted. Custodes are explicite posthuman, they were made from scratch, each and every one of them a genetic clockwork masterpiece. If humans are plain linen fabric, Marines are your mass-produced Battle Dress Uniforms and Primarchs your Class A uniforms. Custodes are bespoke tails and black tie suits made out of smoothest and strongest silk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Im still working my way through the novel...but I very much dislike the Custodes attitudes, justified or not, so far. I liked them because they showed how different they are from even Marines, not to mention mere humans. Marines are meta- or superhuman. But they were born and then crudely adjusted. Custodes are explicite posthuman, they were made from scratch, each and every one of them a genetic clockwork masterpiece. If humans are plain linen fabric, Marines are your mass-produced Battle Dress Uniforms and Primarchs your Class A uniforms. Custodes are bespoke tails and black tie suits made out of smoothest and strongest silk. See, thats what bugs me. Sure, the Custodes are specially crafted, each unique and powerful. So far the Custodes show none of that specialty. If anything, they seem to be pettier than many of the Marines we've been exposed to so far. I expected something more...majestic, kingly, even stoic. They are the elite of the elite, warrior philosophers of the Emperor. And so wrapped in their arrogance and superiority they fail to see the irony of their situation. Oh well, I've only got past Mangus's Folly. Maybe more reading will refine my view. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Imagine the following exchange: Horus: Hey, I want to see daddy. Custodes #1: Go away, Sixteenth. Horus: Wait, what did you call me? Custodes #2: Oh look, It speaks! Both: HAHAHAHAHA! Horus: ... [on the webway phone to Word Bearers] So, guys, about that Heresy... Or the other way: Horus: Hi, daddy! Custodes #1: Go away, Sixteenth. Emperor: Hey, Horu-bro! Custodes #1: Wait, what? Both: Brofist! Custodes #1: ...wait, this is totally not what you told us, are you lying to him? or, seeing you have him command everyone, even me, which places him on top, to me? Is what I believed a lie? Why is my world spinning so much? I don't know what to believe in anymore! I see what you're saying...but the E is likely more subtle To the custodes, he'll say "I love you but I have to pretend to love the primarchs as well, to foster greater loyalty...I'm sure you'll understand" To the primarchs, he'll say "I love you but I have to pretend to love the custodes as well, to foster greater loyalty...I'm sure you'll understand" The E then proceeds to treat both groups with a degree of love and neither group finds it shocking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Wait, does the Emperor actually say anything? Ra's vision meetings with the Emperor has me questioning that right now. When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will? That is huge to me. Imagine if his message was "Bring Leman Russ to me" A human or Marine could hear "Bring my Son, the Lord of War and Winter to me"A Custude could hear "A Primach approaches" An Ad Mech would hear "My 6th creation approaches" All are technically correct, and all hear the message formed to be best understood by their perception of things. Or maybe Im crazy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 As an Angel of the First, I definitely believe the Emperor went with the First not only to start the Great Crusade, but to monitor them for any issues and kill them wholesale if necessary Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Also, do the Custodes ever refer to one another as "brother"? Is geneseed even a factor in their manufacture? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Wait, does the Emperor actually say anything? Ra's vision meetings with the Emperor has me questioning that right now. When I speak to you, to others, am I speaking aloud? Does my mouth move and form the shapes of human language? Does a human voice emerge? Or is it merely how mortal minds process my presence and psychic will? That is huge to me. Imagine if his message was "Bring Leman Russ to me" A human or Marine could hear "Bring my Son, the Lord of War and Winter to me" A Custude could hear "A Primach approaches" An Ad Mech would hear "My 6th creation approaches" All are technically correct, and all hear the message formed to be best understood by their perception of things. Or maybe Im crazy No, you are not. This is exactly what I mean. In linguistics, language shapes perception. Here, perception shapes language, in fact - the reality of the Emperor, as communicated with the specific perceiving sentience. I wonder what he would look like to the Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328231-master-of-mankind-expect-spoilers/page/3/#findComment-4577477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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