The Order of Our Crystal Lady

[DanforthLaertes]

Hello, friends! As observant Remembrances might, erm, remember​ I have posted here before with a Sisters of Battle Knight Titan - I should take some pics etc. of her as she has gone in a different direction to the original suggestions I had. But she looks pretty sweet.

 

Anyway - I am posting here not​ because I am unable to work out which forum is for what, but rather because I have a blog which has details about my homebrew Order of Sisters of Battle, and I wanted to share it here;

 

http://opheliaviidustzone.blogspot.com/

 

That is the general link, which contains all my posts (editorial, rumors, speculation, pics etc.) Here is a link to JUST the history & background posts;

 

http://opheliaviidustzone.blogspot.com/search/label/History%20%26%20Background

 

and here is a link to my latest project; "The Tale of Verity" - the origins of the humble tech-priestess who would become the Crystal Lady herself, Verity the Six-Winged Seraph . . .

 

http://opheliaviidustzone.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Tale%20of%20Verity

 

So far, just a single post in that history - but I am going to be working on more!

 

Any comments (here or on the blog) welcome!

[Servant of Dante]

ooh, ooh, ooh! Ecclesiarchy tech priest(ess)!

 

I have wondered where the Sisters equipment comes from, though I take a more . . . stringent view of the fluff into account. While there is an argument for the Ecclesiarchy simply maintaining its own forges, I personally think that the Mechanicus is probably involved, though the 2E Sisters codex does hint and the Ecclesiarchy repairing all that it could itself when it mentions that the most complex items are sent to the Mechanicus for repair, albeit at outrageous cost to the Ministorum. 

 

So, going off that (and I take most every word in the 2E codex as immutable), then the Exxlesiarchy probably has forges for power armour and bolters and so on somewhere. Who knows how they got the STCs. Maybe Vandire had something to do with that. So, since the Mechanicus and Ministorum are traditionally not so friendly with each other, I think that it might be a bit of a stretch to have someone who wears both the Chaplet and the Cog, but you said that your fluff doesn't necessarily mesh with GW's anyway.

 

The reason I posted, originally, is that I keep imagining a tech priest decked out in Ecclesiarchal bling :P 

 

Then you dive into the debates I've had (or kinda just watched) about the activities of the Orders Pronatus and whether they maintain the Sisters' rhinos, or whether literally no one in the galaxy can maintain a simple vehicle if they don't wear the cog and swear to the Omnisiah. The Exorcist is a sticky point here, though since it is a rhino chassis, my opinion would be that the Sisters can run routine maintenance on those sections, and that if the bits they can't fix break then they have to pay up to have a tech priest come fix it. I like my Sisters a bit more autonomous from even the Ecclesiarchy at large in any case, so why not have them be less dependent on the Mechanicus? 

 

So, yeah, a bit of a monologue there . . .

[DanforthLaertes]

:)

 

Well, my fluff is beginning to take shape - I have all the notes for the third chapter (the second is very basic - but it does reference Lorgar and his book . . . )

 

No spoilers, but I think it is possibly obvious that Verity is a Tech-Priestess and she becomes the Crystal Lady ten thousand years later. And that, of course, helps the connection between the two. As I mention in my notes, the Mechanicum do​ represent the longest continual worship of the Emperor as divine; the Omnissiah is a god in their theology. And, if one delves into the origins of the Emperor (Lord and the Damned) he was MADE by the sacrifice of the Shamen. The Void Dragon is probably the Machine God .. . . but how many Mechanicum know that? They probably see the Emperor as the incarnation of the conscious action of humanity.

 

In any case... no spoilers for Verity or the Crystal lady, but I just ordered parts to make her model (count as Living Saint); 6x wings from Stormcast Prosecutors, a Necron Wraith, the Living Saint model, Anvil Industries servo harness . . .

 

Thank you for the monologue! Very interesting and it parallels a lot of my thoughts.

[Servant of Dante]

Well, I'm busy right now, but we'll have to talk . . . I'll try to remember to PM you at some point.

[DanforthLaertes]

I look forward to it! For the Emperor and Sanguinius . . . !

[DanforthLaertes]

Not background per se, but some of my thoughts on why Sisters are dressed like they are . . . . http://opheliaviidustzone.blogspot.com/2016/12/on-hyper-femininity-sexism.html

[Servant of Dante]

I admit to skimming, but you have some good points there (or, rather, points I agree with, I won't claim to be unbiased).

 

I kinda just take the Sisters look in stride (except for Repentia. The models don't really fit the fluff that well if you look closely; the models (NOT the resulting fluff) are blatantly fetish material in my eyes), but I agree with your assessment, especially since it is backed up by fluff :)

I'm sorry I haven't PMed you yet. I'm kinda busy for the time being, and I just haven't taken the time to put together my thoughts.

I'm sorry I haven't PMed you yet. I'm pretty busy for the time being, and haven't takeen the time to put together all my thoughts.

Edit: accidentally said that last bit twice

[DanforthLaertes]

Did you read my post on the Repentia themselves? I make a similar point (I say I am "not comfortable with putting them on the table" - but it is clearly because they are a bit BDSM!) I also argue that the backround for the Repentia is actually i) contradictory with what we know of the Sisters and ii) very mysoginistic.

 

Don't worry about the PM - we are all always busy! It is very nice to meet someone with whom I can discuss this (and who also collects the two best armies in 40K).

​Are you excited by the new resin Canoness? The model is not my favorite, but something new is always fun.

[Servant of Dante]

While the look is kinda weird (heels) I do kinda like Blanche's work and have wished for this exact model in the past (never expected to get my wish though).

 

I wouldn't call repentia contradictory. The Sisters have a strong sense of penance, and Repentia embody that. Note that I do think that many become Repentia more or less voluntarily. They know they screwed up and they know how to atone.

[Servant of Dante]

The whips and what not that the mistresses use . . . Yeah those are weird

 

But the thing about wearing rags is symbolic not only of no longer being a Sister, but also of baring one's self to the Emperor's judgement.

[DanforthLaertes]

I agree with the sense of penance - but I think the idea of close-combat crazies actually goes against that (although, given your Order's focus, it might actually fit better with your background). The post explains it in more detail, but the basic idea is that a Repentia has sinned . . . and she is actually rewarded by being more likely to die in the Emperor's service.

 

My Repentia are deployed as snipers :)

But the thing about wearing rags is symbolic not only of no longer being a Sister, but also of baring one's self to the Emperor's judgement.

 

I have that sort of theme - they do not wear the icons of the Order, Imperium or Ecclesiarchy, and they don't wear the habit of the Order either.

 

Nude women whipped into combat by a "Mistress" . . . . yeah, I can see how that might be misconstrued :)

[Servant of Dante]

They seek to earn their repentance through the violent deaths of themselves and their enemies.

 

Setting them back as snipers would just be shaming, at the most.

 

This way, they prove their devotion, they prove that they know that they have sinned and seek to serve the Emperor more perfectly even after they have given up some part of his light. They give themselves over to physical exertion, pain, and likely death in the hopes that the Emperor will accept their sacrifice in atonement for their wrongs.

 

Hiding in a bush with a rifle does none of this. In fact, it shows less devotion and strength of will than a normal Sister, since they would be staying out of the line of Fire.

[Servant of Dante]

It fits with my knowledge of Catholic reconciliation (confession). To receive forgiveness one must admit their sins, be truly sorry for them, and usually do some kind of pennance. This being 40k, that penance is turned up to 11 as the penitent throw themselves bodily at the enemy with no armour and swinging a giant chainsword

 

Another way to look at it is this: the Repentia's sin is so great she does not deserve to live in the Emperor's service, so she seeks death in his service instead.

[DanforthLaertes]

And that is the point - they are denied the opportunity to risk their life, but continue to serve the Emperor. A Sister is conditioned to WANT to sacrifice for the Emperor - that is what she is called to do. That is how she feels loved back by him. If she is denied danger, she is denied love.

 

And it is clear the Repentia CAN atone without death - there are references to it.

 

I think the idea of members of the Imperial Cult giving themselves over to the 40K equivalent of the WFB Empire flaggelants makes sense - that is sort of what the Redemptorists are. But I just don't see the Sisters of Battle allowing their members to be used so wastefully.

[Servant of Dante]

Yes Repentia can in rare circumstances stone without death, but they must seek death to do so.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but we are not going to agree on this one. Sisters are conditioned to do what is best for the Emperor's cause. Sometimes that involves living to fight another day, sometimes it does not. It doesn't matter.

 

Repentia reafirm their willingness and loyalty through their action. Yes, their death is a release for them. They escape their sins and kill the enemies of the Emperor, but someone who is a Repentia can't be allowed to live indefinitely as a sniper or something. Their sin is too great to be overcome by simply doing something shaming or unpleasant for a duration of time.

[DanforthLaertes]

It fits with my knowledge of Catholic reconciliation (confession). To receive forgiveness one must admit their sins, be truly sorry for them, and usually do some kind of pennance. This being 40k, that penance is turned up to 11 as the penitent throw themselves bodily at the enemy with no armour and swinging a giant chainsword

 

Another way to look at it is this: the Repentia's sin is so great she does not deserve to live in the Emperor's service, so she seeks death in his service instead.

 

The Catholic theology is good - except that in turning penance "up to 11" it ceases to be penance, and becomes martyrdom ... which is a different thing.

 

See, everyone sees martyrdom - both in Catholicism and the Imperial Creed. MOST people get a slow, gradual martyrdom - you live your life for others (not selfishly). You sacrifice slowly, bit by bit, over your whole life. The idea is to fulfil your duty, your vocation - that is what Imperial citizens are called to do; live your life in service to the Emperor.

 

If you die against the enemies of the faith, you are a martyr and are rewarded in the afterlife. This is standard Imperial theology.

 

My argument would be, theologically, that by giving a failed person a greater​ opportunity for martyrdom, you are actually rewarding sin​ rather than punishing it. A Sister doesn't shy away from death - it is how she is joined to the Emperor. But neither would she seek it out - because she knows her value to the Imperium while alive (which is why Catholic priests - even in countries where there is active persecution - don't go seeking martyrdom).

 

The sniper position achieves two things - it denies the sinner the opportunity to die (which is a reward) and it separates her from everything she knows (so she cannot corrupt them, and as punishment).

 

Of course, there is no way to remove the Repentia from the background even within my own headcanon. So, my position is that the Order of Our Crystal Lady just doesn't strip their sinners nude and throw them into combat, but other Orders do, and the Daughters of Verity are very much down on the whole idea.

[Servant of Dante]

There is no wasting Repentia. They are no longer Sisters. They are unfit to be Sisters. The Sororitas cannot sacrifice morals and principles for something as insignificant as survival, for humanity's fall from grace would be a fate worse than extinction.

 

And besides, without the grace of the Emperor, there is no hope of escaping extinction

 

(At least, this is how I see it)

[DanforthLaertes]

Their sin is too great to be overcome by simply doing something shaming or unpleasant for a duration of time.

 

Well, here would be my concern with that - just what is done to earn a place in the Repentia? Just HOW MANY of these Sisters are violating the oaths so badly only death can atone?

 

That is a SERIOUS problem of formation, if it is happening to the degree the number of Repentia in armies suggest (bearing in mind most of them tend to just die in a single battle . . . ) Half the Order seems to be going heretic!

There is no wasting Repentia. They are no longer Sisters. They are unfit to be Sisters

 

Except the ones who willingly joined - they never sinned. They are actually admired . . . when, in reality, it's an easy way out. You have one battle and probably get gunned down by a hail of bolter fire. Yay! Instant martyrdom!

[Servant of Dante]

I do see the bit about Martyrdom being a reward, and in the fluff Sisters do view Repentia with some reverence.

 

Ok, here's how I feel, as near as I can explain it, then I'll stop:

 

The greatest part of the punishment is being cast out of their order. They do not exist anymore as far as the other Sisters are concerned (as people, I mean, they are still there, but they are no longer individuals with names and so on).

 

Their deaths are almost wasteful, except that their sin has robbed their lives of value and meaning. Being a Repentia gives them a chance to earn that value back through their own death and the death of their enemies. So the martyrdom is a reward

 

But they seek martyrdom in isolation. They have been cast out. The only atonement that could approach sufficiency is to seek a violent martyrs death. And to do otherwise than to seek to atone would be a further sin.

 

There. I think that covers most of it.

Eh, one might become a Repentia because they decide they need to be one. Any "rational" person might write off many Repentias' sins as minor, but they are not in the eyes of the Sororitas. That's how I think of it.

[Servant of Dante]

This has really helped me clean up my thoughts on Repentia. Thanks!

I kniw we don't agree, but that's really fine. All I ask is that you understand where I'm coming from with my interpretation of the fluff.

Edit: and I have to confess that if I was going to start a new Space Marine army I would play Templars :P

[DanforthLaertes]

I think we're in agreement on all the points - it is just that we (or our Orders!) have different theological emphases, which leads to different conclusions. Neither of us is saying the other has got something fundamentally wrong, it's just that we give more importance to different things (your Order emphasizes the issue of martyrdom, while mine emphasizes lifelong service). Both are equally valid (and informed by their origins and founders, I think - my Order draws from factory workers and their Saint is a Tech-Priestess who struggled against a xenos machine intelligence for 10,000 years rather than let herself die).

 

I need to go read all your background and stuff, but I do get the impression you are more about the bloodshed of combat - my Order's primary duty isn't combat, but advocating for laborers . . . :)

[Servant of Dante]

I think we're in agreement on all the points - it is just that we (or our Orders!) have different theological emphases, which leads to different conclusions. Neither of us is saying the other has got something fundamentally wrong, it's just that we give more importance to different things (your Order emphasizes the issue of martyrdom, while mine emphasizes lifelong service). Both are equally valid (and informed by their origins and founders, I think - my Order draws from factory workers and their Saint is a Tech-Priestess who struggled against a xenos machine intelligence for 10,000 years rather than let herself die).

I need to go read all your background and stuff, but I do get the impression you are more about the bloodshed of combat - my Order's primary duty isn't combat, but advocating for laborers . . . w

Well, they actually don't use Repentia either. I hate the models so much I wrote them out of the fluff. They say that those who would be Repentia are unfit to fight for the Emperor at all and send them to work in the depths of a Naval vessel, preferably somewhere where they might get ground to bits as an occupational hazard.

And the focus on hitting it with a sword I blame on the Blood Angels.

Actually, I've had a rather massive update/rrewrite of my Order fluff about half done for months. I hope to finish it over the holidays this year, but we'll see. Just know that the fluff in my Order's thread is kinda out of date. Thanks to many long discussions with a friend who knows many times more about Sisters (and is even more strict with their interpretation of the fluff) than I am, I have managed to add a good bit of depth to my order.

They will be formed from both the Order of Our Martyred Lady and the Order of the Valorous Heart (I like the penance thing they have going on, and Saint Lucia's death is a really neat bit of fluff), and they will do things like moniter the pilgramige routs that follow the path of a local saint, look for a relic (no one really knows what it looks like exactly) that's lost somewhere in the dessert for the past couple thousand years, monitor a nearby Maiden World, and generally be the only real military presence in that part of the galaxy. :)

It sounds like a lot, but it all pretty much ties together. I hope.

[DanforthLaertes]

My original fluff is undergoing severe re-writing. It was originally very simple - just an Order founded after a Seraphim was killed dramatically by Eldar. Now, they have a history that dates back to the Treaty of Mars . . . . and a Living Saint who is at least partially​ Necron.

 

One thing I am preserving from the original fluff, however, is Inquisitor Danforth Laertes as the son of the current Canoness, and Palatine Alicia with a psychic connection to Sanguinius because she carried a Blood Angel progenitor gland in her throat while fighting Slaaneshi Marines.

Also, on an unrelated note . . . . did you notice many of the Sisters of Battle models are no longer available on the US site? I think something is happening!!!! They were there this morning (I ordered a few, as it happens).

[Servant of Dante]

Ok. Just don't blame me when your Canoness gets what she deserves and is burned in the Emperor's Holy Promethium. And the Palatine too. :P

 

I suppose not everyone considers Sisters celibate, but I do, so her having a son is heresy in my book.

 

Though, it's fine of course for you to write it up however you want. Everyone interprets the fluff in their own way. :)

 

But the psychic connection is definitely heresy. Canoness Raedia of the Order of the Glorious Reprisal agrees :P

 

Do you have some kind of Dark Angels "super shameful super secret heresy inner circle" going on around your Palatine? Or does no one else but her know what's going on? Or does she not even know?

[Servant of Dante]

Models: please visit this thread

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328613-battle-sisters-gone-from-gw-for-me/?do=findComment&comment=4587934

 

I'd be happy to see you around the Sisters part of the B&C.

 

The short answer is that the codex has been gone for months, now the bolter sisters are gone, and the Hospitaller is gone in the U.K. but not the US and Celestine is marked Last Chance to Buy in the US at least.

 

I'm pessimistic, but they have to be at least repackaging the bolter Sisters. Codex Imperial agents has to include Sisters with Boltguns so they have to sell the model.

 

Or maybe we will get plastics who knows.

 

That was rather a longer answer than I intended.