The Order of Our Crystal Lady

[DanforthLaertes]

Ok. Just don't blame me when your Canoness gets what she deserves and is burned in the Emperor's Holy Promethium. And the Palatine too.

I suppose not everyone considers Sisters celibate, but I do, so her having a son is heresy in my book.

Oh, no . . . she was [EDIT: apparently the "bad-word" filter removes the word I used here! She was forced into carnal knowledge against her will] by an Inquisitor when she was a novice. The Order's connection to the Crystal Lady means members of the Order cannot lie and cannot be lied to . . . so they closed ranks around her and refused to accept the verdict of the trial (which has presided over by an Inquisitor). The Ecclesiarch himself stepped in and exonerated her . . . for reasons which are unknown (although they might be related to the fact they aren't technically speaking​ an Order; they are an Ecclesiarchal Prelature Militant answering directly to the Ecclesiarch - although why THAT is the case is also not entirely clear).

Sisters are absolutely celibate - I am going to do a blog post about it (and sexuality in the Imperium, which isn't going to earn me friends!)

But the psychic connection is definitely heresy. Canoness Raedia of the Order of the Glorious Reprisal agrees

Do you have some kind of Dark Angels "super shameful super secret heresy inner circle" going on around your Palatine? Or does no one else but her know what's going on? Or does she not even know?

Oh, she knows. And the Palatine Council knows. And given that the Order cannot lie or be lied to . . .

Here is the thing about Sisters and psychic powers; the Emperor is their god. They worship him. He is the most powerful psyker in the universe. And they get those "Acts of Faith" which they probably call "reliable miracles" but which are, if we (gamers) are being honest, nothing more than psychic effects from the Emperor.

So, she doesn't see it as "a psychic connection to Sanguinius". Rather, she carried the flesh of the Saint-Primarch in her flesh, and she is connected to the Saint via that.

The Sisters can say "we burn the witch" and "we abhor the psyker" all they like, but they are absolutely rife with psychic stuff if we are honest! AND they work with the Ordo Hereticus who have psykers in their ranks. Inquisitor Laertes is psychic - he is nearly killed during a witch-hunt when he is an adolescent, but the Sisters (led by his own mother) prevent the workers from burning him at the stake and instead send him on the Black Ships.

There is a strong sense of hypocrisy in the Imperium - "the xenos cannot be tolerated . . . . except those savant organ-utans. They're fine. And the mutant must be abhorred . . . . except the Navigators and the Ogryns and Ratlings, which is different for some reasons. And the heretic shall be burned . . . unless they know how to operate tech, of course. And you shall suffer not the witch to live . . . except those who are sanctioned, naturally."

Or maybe we will get plastics who knows.

I have faith in "the man in the bin"

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah. I consider AoFs to be simply the combination of training, strength of will, and (to put it bluntly) superstition. This was not an easy conclusion for me to arrive to, but I won't have my AoFs having anything to do with the warp, so here I am. I honestly can't read your post. A few words and I can feel myself being triggered. Sorry. That's rather blunt. I'm rather tired. Suffice it to say I disagree. Strongly.

 

The Adepta Sororitas as a whole only answers to the Ecclesiarch. Where you unaware, or do you mean something different about your Order? I suppose you mean that they don't answer to the Prioresses or the Abbess, but ONLY the Ecclesiarch.

 

[Servant of Dante]

Of course, yours is a legitimate interpretation of the fluff, there is no question. It's just not one that I like.

My interpretation also means that the current SoF rule doesn't make sense. The AoFs can be explained under it, but the 6++ . . . Not so much

[DanforthLaertes]

I'm going to presume you're joking about being "triggered":)

 

The problem with arguing that Acts of Faith (and the 6++ save, and Celestine etc.) are "simply the combination of training, strength of will, and (to put it bluntly) superstition" and nothing to do with the Warp is that those things are often Warp-effects in 40K.

 

First off; they are called "Acts of Faith​" and that is faith in the God-Emperor . . . who is not only a psyker, but the most powerful psyker and the most powerful entity in the Warp. His powers ARE Warp-based. So, the conclusion is either that they are NOT "miracles" that come from the Emperor, or they are Warp-based.

 

If they don't come from the Emperor, where do​ they come from? "Training" could account for things like hitting more often or being braver, but that gets a little much when dealing with things like Celestine (who can, lest we forget, fly). Unless she is some Dark Age of Technology thing and the whole "living saint" part is a lie . . . "Strength of Will" is just mental training - but in 40K that invariable refers to Warp-based stuff because each sentient creature has a presence in the Warp and willpower can influence what happens in the Materium via that Warp-connection. The Orks have their gestalt psychic power (the Waaaaagh!) and it is established canon that the devotion of the followers of the Emperor contribute to his strength in the Warp.

 

"Superstition" is just belief in a thing - well, that only works if the thing actually does that thing. It has to actually work or it doesn't work - which is pretty obvious. The Sisters' belief is in the power of the Emperor . . . which is Warp-based.

 

Warhammer 40K is a universe with "supernatural" elements in it - Daemons, the Warp, psykers, the Emperor. All of those things are "of the Warp". Now, if you wish to make the case that Acts of Faith aren't anything to do with Daemons and Chaos, I would agree - they are of the Emperor.

​I just can't see any way at all to argue that Acts of Faith aren't in some way psychic - because they are supernatural powers, and everything supernatural in 40K comes from the Warp, and double-because they are Acts of Faith in the Emperor​ who is a Warp-based psyker.

 

My Order is not part of either of the Convents. They are based on Ophelia VII, but they do not answer to the Prioress or Abbess - the Canoness answers directly to the Ecclessiarch.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm going to presume you're joking about being "triggered":)

The problem with arguing that Acts of Faith (and the 6++ save, and Celestine etc.) are "simply the combination of training, strength of will, and (to put it bluntly) superstition" and nothing to do with the Warp is that those things are often Warp-effects in 40K.

First off; they are called "Acts of Faith​" and that is faith in the God-Emperor . . . who is not only a psyker, but the most powerful psyker and the most powerful entity in the Warp. His powers ARE Warp-based. So, the conclusion is either that they are NOT "miracles" that come from the Emperor, or they are Warp-based.

If they don't come from the Emperor, where do​ they come from? "Training" could account for things like hitting more often or being braver, but that gets a little much when dealing with things like Celestine (who can, lest we forget, fly). Unless she is some Dark Age of Technology thing and the whole "living saint" part is a lie . . . "Strength of Will" is just mental training - but in 40K that invariable refers to Warp-based stuff because each sentient creature has a presence in the Warp and willpower can influence what happens in the Materium via that Warp-connection. The Orks have their gestalt psychic power (the Waaaaagh!) and it is established canon that the devotion of the followers of the Emperor contribute to his strength in the Warp.

"Superstition" is just belief in a thing - well, that only works if the thing actually does that thing. It has to actually work or it doesn't work - which is pretty obvious. The Sisters' belief is in the power of the Emperor . . . which is Warp-based.

Warhammer 40K is a universe with "supernatural" elements in it - Daemons, the Warp, psykers, the Emperor. All of those things are "of the Warp". Now, if you wish to make the case that Acts of Faith aren't anything to do with Daemons and Chaos, I would agree - they are of the Emperor.

​I just can't see any way at all to argue that Acts of Faith aren't in some way psychic - because they are supernatural powers, and everything supernatural in 40K comes from the Warp, and double-because they are Acts of Faith in the Emperor​ who is a Warp-based psyker.

My Order is not part of either of the Convents. They are based on Ophelia VII, but they do not answer to the Prioress or Abbess - the Canoness answers directly to the Ecclessiarch.

The Sisters fearlessness and training allows them to stand up to fire and whatnot, and sometimes stuff happens. They believe the Emperor will protect and help them. Obviously, yes, the warp-based explaination is a bit cleaner, but I will not have my Sisters running around with psychic abilities. I do consider AoFs mundane, not supernatural/psychic. The old codices never flat out said they where "miracles" just that they looked like miracles.

I, personally, make an exception for Celestine. She empowered by the Emperor (yes, through the warp) imo, but she is an exception, in my view.

And . . . well, I'd like to say I wasn't joking about being triggered . . . but I wasn't really. It's not your fault, I just need to get over myself (and it was late).

I'm going to PM you

Edit: PM sent! (don't worry, no rage) :P

[DanforthLaertes]

I've made a couple of posts today - including one where I gather together my predictions for the SoB release and discover four out of five of my "what will be released" predictions were right http://opheliaviidustzone.blogspot.com/