Finally finished MoM

[HeritorA]

It's all about Custodians knowing they are created in a superior way when compared to the mass produced slop that the Astartes are made from.

As explained above Call Zephon 'mass produced' to his face

[Petitioner's City]

It's all about Custodians knowing they are created in a superior way when compared to the mass produced slop that the Astartes are made from.

As explained above Call Zephon 'mass produced' to his face

He is a plaster cast of a marble original!

[HeritorA]

It's all about Custodians knowing they are created in a superior way when compared to the mass produced slop that the Astartes are made from.

As explained above Call Zephon 'mass produced' to his face

He is a plaster cast of a marble original!

Bravo! Sorry can't like it, reach the limit

[drooling blood]

Zephon would probably scratch his chin, give a small smile and agree.

Him and Land were the most interesting

Hes hardly the doom bringer or what ever his nick was at this time.

Next to useless, until the end, still smiling, but dumb as dog :cuss, when dealing with people. Or is sincere what im looking for.

Once he has control of his bits. He pulls the clutch play out of his arse, with help that he asks for from humies. He was helping the wounded SOS

So their null fields either didnt effect him or he sucked it up for his comrades.

I think he was probably put in there to be the human in normal SM books. That they end up respecting.

Still, telling Land to drive the (land)raider closer while gunning a chain sword is soooo 40k

[Mellow]

I wish that post was a bit easier to read grammatically.

 

Can't make heads or tails of it :)

[HeritorA]

Zephon would probably scratch his chin, give a small smile and agree.

Him and Land were the most interesting

Hes hardly the doom bringer or what ever his nick was at this time.

Next to useless, until the end, still smiling, but dumb as dog , when dealing with people. Or is sincere what im looking for.

Once he has control of his bits. He pulls the clutch play out of his arse, with help that he asks for from humies. He was helping the wounded SOS

So their null fields either didnt effect him or he sucked it up for his comrades.

I think he was probably put in there to be the human in normal SM books. That they end up respecting.

Still, telling Land to drive the (land)raider closer while gunning a chain sword is soooo 40k

Comparing to inhuman dicks custodes - his appearance was totally human

[The Red Thirst]

 

Still, telling Land to drive the (land)raider closer while gunning a chain sword is soooo 40k

~~Insert Commissar Tank Surfing meme~~

[Brother Dougal]

Finished the book yesterday. Fantastic read in and of itself. I'd go into detail about the things that are great about it, but there's little I can say that hasn't already been stated across the board. ADB is a great author. However....

 

 

He can also go suck an egg for what he said in the afterword. If GW ever takes 40k down the path Fantasy took in it's own End Times, I may just have to find another setting to get lost in

 

Unless of course they also do an Age of Sigmar thing after it. A slightly less grimdark setting with the various good species actually working together would be a welcome change in my eyes.

 

[Scribe]

Seems you also had missed the memo on what the underlying truth of the setting is and has always been then? :p

 

You on one hand lament a Fantasy End Times, which is always what 40K was anyway as the last days of Humanity, and then on the other hope for a setting that would firmly NOT be 40K.

 

Interesting.

[Brother Dougal]

Seems you also had missed the memo on what the underlying truth of the setting is and has always been then? :p

You on one hand lament a Fantasy End Times, which is always what 40K was anyway as the last days of Humanity, and then on the other hope for a setting that would firmly NOT be 40K.

Interesting.

I'm a complicated person. Not the most articulate person, I'm afraid, but still complicated. Let's see, if I wanted to try and sum it up I guess I'd start by saying that one of the main reasons I got into this setting in the first place was the idea of 'the darker the night, the brighter the dawn'. Few settings are as dark as 40k, so the actions of it's heroes are that much more inspiring. But if it all ultimately ends in vain, then.... what?

 

It's been said in some stories and tales that the meaning of life is to give live meaning. We're all going to die one day, so why not make the best of it while we can? In that sense, the impending doom of Warhammer could be seen as heroic as well. The end is coming, so give it (The Imperium, Humanity, your loved ones, etc.) everything you've got. But Chaos... I cannot abide Chaos. Those who follow Chaos are tragic in many ways, and I feel sorrow, anger, fear, and a bunch of other things for some of them. But you'll never convince me to like the idea of an eternal hell consuming us all after the End comes. Our extinction may be inevitable. That doesn't mean our damnation should be as well.

[Scribe]

To deny Chaos is to deny what it is that makes us human. Yes, it's humanity amplified and darkened, but at its roots is all that makes us what we are.

 

To fight against that is as you say the height of heroism in the setting.

 

If all is lost, damnation (consumption really) a given, and defeat inevitable, what is more heroic than to look that fate in the eye, literally!!, and say 'No, I refuse you'?

 

I cannot think of anything more heroic than that.

 

So yeah, there is a bright light and it's in that denial of a fate that WILL come to pass.

[Brother Dougal]

And if/when it does? What then? Time stops for no one, and the world keeps spinning whether we like it or not. Will GW keep us teetering on the edge of 999.M41 and 001.M42 forever? Will we always be satisfied with that? The Horus Heresy series is on it's way to an end. In 10 books, maybe 20, maybe more. Then they'll have to find something else to tell. Which, granted, there is a lot they could go over. A whole lot.

 

The bulk of the stories we get does teeter on that edge though. Will you always be happy reading about these moments over and over? I can only guess at what's coming, but if I had to do it right now I'd guess that GW will keep writing stories on that edge, mixed in with series like The Beast Arises (which I have mixed, but mostly positive feelings for) until we're not willing to buy them anymore, and then they'll do an End Times event or something to cap it off before launching whatever comes next.

 

.....I'm somewhat invested in these characters. I probably shouldn't be, it's just fiction after all, but that's what good writers do. They make you care. Heck, just look at some of the things people do over Game of Thrones, Twilight, or other popular franchises. I don't want to think of the end that awaits their world, even if that end is what helps define them. What will I do when that time comes? How long can I keep reading these stories, following these characters, knowing in my heart what awaits them?

 

Death is something we all have to deal with. I said goodbye to my grandmother last year. Delving into that in fiction and other stories is a great idea. But damnation? Not just saying goodbye, but watching them burn? Forever? The idea of Heaven is a vague concept in this setting, while Hell is not. As ADB said about the Dark and Cursed Foundings, that may be a good thing. Leaving the hope and ideas unsaid and unconfirmed, a matter of faith instead of logic. Makes it more powerful in a way. But if Hell ever wins, and everything burns? Well, it won't burn me. I, the human writing this, will be untouched by whatever happens in this universe. All I'll have to do is watch. Watch as the characters I've come to care about meet their gruesome end, either knowing their torment will last forever, or that something will take their place and then the whole thing starts over again. And if that something can't end any differently either, then... what?

 

I wonder, is that what Warhammer is trying to teach us? Is it, through tragedy, trying to teach us that Hell is a distinct possibility? That our world might become like Hell if we do not work our very hardest to keep it from becoming so? If so, then bravo. Bravo. But still, there is only so long I can watch other people suffer before it gets to me and I burn out. Maybe I should spend some time in other worlds. Get away from this for a while, remind myself that there really is more to life than war. I'm not so strong a person that I can keep reading about people meeting these tragic endings and not have it affect me. I'm only human, after all.

[Scribe]

Yes, GW should keep us at the edge of doom, forever. 100%.

 

Its a setting, not a story.

 

I've been in this since 99, and the one time they moved the story (Black Crusade) they undid it all!

 

Heaven is not even a vague idea, there is no idea at all, its all the Warp, its all Chaos. 

 

I'm afraid we are on completely opposed poles of thought here on what this setting is, and what its meant to be.

 

Warhammer is teaching ME that the bad guys are right, and that even an institution for 'good' can be evil, and deserving of being torn down. :]

 

It does sound like you take this all to heart a bit, and if you cant handle the grimdark, it is probably best you explore other settings.

[Brother Dougal]

Wow, that really is the opposite of my own thoughts. That's another one of the reasons I was drawn to this setting: for the chance to play as a great empire that Wasn't the bad guy. After Star Wars, and Final Fantasy, and the Hunger Games, and so on, and so forth, I was so tired of the concept of heroic freedom fighters going up against evil empires that I was excited at the chance to flip it around and play as the opposite for a change.

 

Furthermore, Heaven is an idea in Warhammer. People talk about it all the time: going to rest at the Emperor's side, to sit at his right hand. It's also rumored that the Emperor's soul is empowered by the Imperium's worship of him, to the point that he might indeed be a god, which might in turn could mean that he has a realm of his own, as the dark gods do. If anything is possible within the warp, then why not?

 

If GW keeps us at the edge forever, never letting either side win, then I might be able to stand it, since presumably that would mean that the various factions would all keep getting their tallies of wins and losses. I do respect to the idea of balance and the cycle of life. "We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." "If Evil is eternal and can never be destroyed, then I take comfort in the fact that so to must be Goodness, and that will never die." It's only the idea of an actual end with Chaos winning that upsets me.

[Scribe]

Yeah, they talk about it, but its part of the lie that is the Imperium, thats the beauty of it. :]

 

If you have access to the Liber Chaotica books, you find that Heaven is indeed a myth, all is the Warp, and the Gods within it.

 

Now, as to the potential of a God-Emperor, I'm on board with that, its one of my favorite bits of fluff. The Emperor COULD ascend to Godhood in 40K, if only...his subjects would let him die, instead he suffers, eternally on the throne, hating that his Imperium is nothing like what he fought to create.

[Brother Dougal]

"Everything is Canon, Nothing is True." That applies to all sides of this war.

 

*looks at your chapter symbol* I'm guessing we're always gonna be on opposite sides of this. I'm sure we can both keep making points for one case or the other, but I'd rather not keep butting heads to see who breaks down first. Let's agree to disagree then, and we'll see what comes in the future. Who knows what further secrets will be revealed by the end of the Horus Heresy? Or what GW will come up with after that? Only the gods know for now (and I'm including Gork and Mork there). See you then.

[Scribe]

Yeah you can point to my perceived fan bias if you like, I dont mind, you should really take the hint from my signature however. :]

 

I believe history will bear out for the side who cannot handle the true desolation of 'grimdark 40K', after all there are more who want a happy ending, than those who want it all to burn up (the Imperium, not the setting or game of 40K) after all what is the most popular faction, with the most support? Easy, the Imperium.

 

Its far more likely that GW will retcon the setting to give you all your glimmer of hope or god forbid give us a setting like AoS where the good guys can push back the Chaos Gods, as like I said, last time Chaos won...they took it from us.

 

So I'll take my solace in small victories, and small nods to the existing fluff, before GW flushes it.

[b1soul]

It's all about Custodians knowing they are created in a superior way when compared to the mass produced slop that the Astartes are made from.

Indeed...

 

Y'know, MoM makes it relatively clear that Custodes are recruited as children and elevated to transhuman status via some complex process involving exsanguination

 

...but in First Heretic, Lorgar says:

 

 

 

‘But let us not exceed your mandate,’ the primarch said. ‘You are not entitled to watch over me like a pack of prison wardens. I am the Emperor’s son, formed by his mastery in order to carry out his will. You are a flock of genetic toys pieced together in a laboratory from vials of biological scrap. You are so far beneath me that I wouldn’t piss on your bodies even if you were aflame."

 

. . .

 

‘You dare threaten me? You murdered my sons, you soulless, worthless husk of genetic overspill.’

 

 

 

Not necessarily contradictory...but interesting

[Scribe]

I'm not sure its a contradiction, Lorgar will have his own view on the process of his construction/birth vs that of what he knows of the Custodes. If Custodes are simply built up, not identically but similar to how Marines are, they still 'start' human.

 

Lorgar is nothing of the sort. :p

[b1soul]

The "husk" could refer to what's left of the original recruit after the process is done

[Legatus]

If GW keeps us at the edge forever, never letting either side win, then I might be able to stand it,

 

That is essentially the Warhammer 40,000 setting. The brutal wars will probably go on for all eternity. The enemies can never be truly defeated, and destruction is a very real threat, but mankind will fight on regardless.

 

That mankind has lost and is about to be destroyed is a very popular fan theory, but not the official setting, as presented in the 7th Edition rulebook just the same as it was in 1st Edition. There is a glimmer of hope for mankind, a possible future without Chaos, but it is questioneble if it can be achieved, or if mankind can survive long enough. Maybe in another ten thousand years they will have achieved teir goal, ascending to a state of psychic awareness that Chaos can no longer threaten them. Or maybe it would take a hundred thousand years, and they cannot push back their enemies for that long. That is the uncertain future the Imperium is fighting for. Though nobody in the Imperium really knows about that goal.

[HeritorA]

To deny Chaos is to deny what it is that makes us human. Yes, it's humanity amplified and darkened, but at its roots is all that makes us what we are.

 

To fight against that is as you say the height of heroism in the setting.

 

If all is lost, damnation (consumption really) a given, and defeat inevitable, what is more heroic than to look that fate in the eye, literally!!, and say 'No, I refuse you'?

 

I cannot think of anything more heroic than that.

 

So yeah, there is a bright light and it's in that denial of a fate that WILL come to pass.

You cant deny chaos - it rooted in every himan soul. Each soul is like a flare for the Warp.

 

 

If GW keeps us at the edge forever, never letting either side win, then I might be able to stand it,

 

That is essentially the Warhammer 40,000 setting. The brutal wars will probably go on for all eternity. The enemies can never be truly defeated, and destruction is a very real threat, but mankind will fight on regardless.

 

That mankind has lost and is about to be destroyed is a very popular fan theory, but not the official setting, as presented in the 7th Edition rulebook just the same as it was in 1st Edition. There is a glimmer of hope for mankind, a possible future without Chaos, but it is questioneble if it can be achieved, or if mankind can survive long enough. Maybe in another ten thousand years they will have achieved teir goal, ascending to a state of psychic awareness that Chaos can no longer threaten them. Or maybe it would take a hundred thousand years, and they cannot push back their enemies for that long. That is the uncertain future the Imperium is fighting for. Though nobody in the Imperium really knows about that goal.

 

True. But if can see from the Wrath of Magnus - it is not to be. Everything would be the same for W40K  - but 2 minutes more into midnight, lol

[Petitioner's City]

It's all about Custodians knowing they are created in a superior way when compared to the mass produced slop that the Astartes are made from.

As explained above Call Zephon 'mass produced' to his face

He is a plaster cast of a marble original!

Bravo! Sorry can't like it, reach the limit

[Marshal Rohr]

The way I see it is cyclical. The Emperor is a perpetual, we know that because other perpetuals recognize him as one of their own (Grammaticus specifically). He didn't reveal himself before the Unification Wars began, but even in newer lore he has been guiding humanity for millennia. Even macguffin weapons like the fulgerite aren't capable of killing someone eternally when they are established as perpetuals (Drach'nyen in the Emperor's case) and we've already seen what happens when it attacks him so we know it can't just end him permanently.

 

So personally, I think Abaddon will kill him, the Imperium will fall, and chaos will reign again. That won't be the permanent state of the universe however. The Emperor will be reborn, learn from this mistake, and try again. The cycle will go on and on. Humans are the most powerful race in the galaxy, so chaos may be ascendant now but it won't be forever and the cycle will start over. The emperor will unify Terra and keep trying to cut humanity away from chaos, and chaos will corrupt what he builds and tear it down again.

[Mellow]

Oll Person refers to the Emperor as a thing.