How big can be an Sororitas' Order?

[Ezr91aeL]

I was wondering, how many sister can compose an Order of the Adepta Sororitas?

I mean, we know exactly how many marines compose a chapter (one thousand, if the chapter is following the codex), but for sisters? How many sisters compose a major order? Thousand? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And a minor one? Can be made of several thousands of sisters or ar limited to only some hundreds?
I'm asking because I'm going to start a Sister's army, I wanna make my customized minor order and I wanna be the closest possible to the canon fluff.

[A.T.]

Highly variable.

 

The two major convents were noted (five thousand years ago) to each be capable of housing many tens of thousands of Sisters, and the orders within had to be split out into new convents, and then later split again to form the major six, but there are also countless smaller militant factions.

 

A sororitas commandery is around 200 sisters, a preceptory ~1000, and an order can be many more. The preceptory notably is a convenient sub-division for an order that has grown significantly beyond a thousand sisters due to the practicalities of housing all the sisters together.

 

This scales all the way down to individual missions - a palatine or canoness and a handful of squads assigned some objective or location to guard.

[Brother Tyler]

The Adepta Sororitas aren't as rigidly defined as the Adeptus Astartes - no document like the Codex Astartes prescribes the size and organization of the various orders. While the to main convents (Convent Prioris on Holy Terra and Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia VII) are massive and capable of "holding tens of thousands of Sisters" each is home to multiple orders. Each is known to hold three major Orders Militant as well as numerous other orders. So we might assume that the three Orders Militant that are housed within each of the convents add up to something less than "tens of thousands" without knowing exactly how large each is or if each is roughly equal in size to the others. This is complicated further by the fact that each of the major Orders Militant has its sisters "commonly spread throughout the galaxy" so the two main convents don't necessarily provide us with an upper limit.

 

As for the Orders Minoris, the Codex: Adepta Sororitas provides the following:

These Orders Militant vary in size, from barely a hundred Battle Sisters to a thousand...

[A.T.]

The numbers given in the old 2nd ed book were 3000-4000 battle sisters for each of the major orders, or which 500-750 are of the higher ranks. The primary covenants themselves held 15000 sisters and individual orders were noted to cap out at anything up to 7000 in times of high recruitment.

[Ezr91aeL]

So it's improbable for a Order Minoris to have more than one thousand sisters...  That's bad for me...

[Servant of Dante]

I know A.T. already touched on this but . . . 

 

Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Decius VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and the Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.* These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other rimes it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be dispatched as needed.

-Codex: Sisters of Battle (Second Edition), pg. 35

 

*note that Celestians did not exist in 2E

 

This says that each convent can hold just under 15,000 Battle Sisters, but the Liber Sororitas contradicts this:

 

These convents are massive fortresses, housing many tens of thousands of the Orders' Sisters and servants . . .

-The Liber Sororitas (White Dwarf 293 UK), pg. 53

 

Here's the bit I think you are interested in, since it mentions the Minor Orders

 

The exact number and size of these 'Lesser Orders Militant' or 'Orders Minoris' can only be guessed at. It is assumed that none are as large as any of the six 'Greater' Orders, and some may be as small as only a hundred or so Sisters.

-The Liber Sororitas (White Dwarf 293 UK), pg. 54

 

From that, I'd say you could probably get away with a thousand Sisters in a large minor order, maybe. Maybe even more, but I would not go up to or past 3,000 under most any circumstances. The Major Orders are the Major Orders.

 

I'm curious, why exactly do you ask?

[Brother Tyler]

So it's improbable for a Order Minoris to have more than one thousand sisters...  That's bad for me...

I consider those numbers to be representative of the most common sizes for the Orders Minoris, but there's no reason that you can't have your own DIY Order Minoris that is of an exceptional size, whether larger or smaller than the norm.

[A.T.]

So it's improbable for a Order Minoris to have more than one thousand sisters...  That's bad for me...

 

Uncommon but not impossible - the size of an order will grow to meet its needs and the numbers of recruits it gains (and of course the losses it sustains) without any fixed upper limit.

[Servant of Dante]

 

So it's improbable for a Order Minoris to have more than one thousand sisters...  That's bad for me...

 

Uncommon but not impossible - the size of an order will grow to meet its needs and the numbers of recruits it gains (and of course the losses it sustains) without any fixed upper limit.

 

Except maaaaaaybe during one of those times that the major orders are at something like 7,000, I would never put an Order Minoris past 3,000 strong.

[WarriorFish]

To add to the above, the official numbers are old and as Tyler said nothing can stop you from having a bigger one - certainly enough to have them take to the field of war in sufficient number I'm hoping that Sisters get a bit of the DIY treatment from GW so you can go to town on your own Order but if not - as mentioned it may be uncommon, but across the vastness of the galaxy and the untold planets and countless humans in it "uncommon" can accommodate quite a few

[Beams]

Those numbers don't really make sense from a galactic ordErick anyway. If humanity is on countless planets, each with millions of people, are we really thinking there's only 15,000 Sororitas?

[Aqui]

My DIY Order is currently at Commandary size (around 250 Sisters), but the actual amount of Sisters I have (most still unpainted ), means I'll have to relook at that number

[A.T.]

Those numbers don't really make sense from a galactic ordErick anyway. If humanity is on countless planets, each with millions of people, are we really thinking there's only 15,000 Sororitas?

That's just the stated capacity of the convent on Terra after it was first expanded around a couple of millennia before the current timeline.

[Servant of Dante]

Those numbers don't really make sense from a galactic ordErick anyway. If humanity is on countless planets, each with millions of people, are we really thinking there's only 15,000 Sororitas?

Remember that the Siroritas ONLY recruit from girls at Scola Progenums that were there from infancy, and even then only recruits the very best of those. That alone brings the numbers down quite a bit. Add to that the losses they must take with the way thet they fight, and I think the numbers are reasonable.

 

And 15,000 is just the stated capacity of both of the main Convents. The major orders alone would total to an average of 18-24 thousand, and the is no telling how many minor orders there are, or in what strength.

 

Yes these numbers are old but they have not been overwritten. And besides, in my headcanon the 2E codex comes before all other sources on matters of the Sisterhood.

[Servant of Dante]

My DIY Order is currently at Commandary size (around 250 Sisters), but the actual amount of Sisters I have (most still unpainted ), means I'll have to relook at that number

You're not going to get any sympathy from me :P I wish I had that many Sisters models. Someday I will, though I'm thinking that if we get plastics it would be a good excuse to start up a new DIY order.

[Ezr91aeL]

I know A.T. already touched on this but . . . 

 

Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Decius VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and the Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.* These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other rimes it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be dispatched as needed.

-Codex: Sisters of Battle (Second Edition), pg. 35

 

*note that Celestians did not exist in 2E

 

This says that each convent can hold just under 15,000 Battle Sisters, but the Liber Sororitas contradicts this:

 

These convents are massive fortresses, housing many tens of thousands of the Orders' Sisters and servants . . .

-The Liber Sororitas (White Dwarf 293 UK), pg. 53

 

Here's the bit I think you are interested in, since it mentions the Minor Orders

 

The exact number and size of these 'Lesser Orders Militant' or 'Orders Minoris' can only be guessed at. It is assumed that none are as large as any of the six 'Greater' Orders, and some may be as small as only a hundred or so Sisters.

-The Liber Sororitas (White Dwarf 293 UK), pg. 54

 

From that, I'd say you could probably get away with a thousand Sisters in a large minor order, maybe. Maybe even more, but I would not go up to or past 3,000 under most any circumstances. The Major Orders are the Major Orders.

 

I'm curious, why exactly do you ask?

Because I was thinking about a fleet based order that refused to take an homeworld for what they call a falliure (but that the Imperium calls a victory), a crusade for the reconquest of a sector (concluded with the conquest of 3 out 4 sub sector). That order (that I wanna call Order of the Celestial Maidens) should be big enough to be effective during the crusade so it had to be bigger than some hundreds.

 

Anyway, thanks to everybody! You're help have been incredibly useful!

[Drider]

If you think about the it there Order Majoris could easily be over hundreds of thousands if you take into acount examples of sighting in the fluff.

 

Start with the 15,000 at the main convent. That's just sisters stationed there at any one time, if some are sent off some where the beds wouldn't stay empty they'd rotate sisters in to fill those empty beds. Add to that sisters serving on the Black Ships, Sisters posted in other locations such as the convent in te Fire and Faith novel hich I believe to be about 300 sisters or the Miission in Hammer and Anvil which I believe was about 50 sisters. And that's just examples of OoOML. Across the countless planets, space stations, and ships in the imperium it's impossible to count.

 

Even if you say that a military force would keep 10% of it's forces at HQ you still end up with an Order being 150,000 strong, but that's a bad example. The main Convents are more like a cross between an HQ and a boot camp, even if you low ball it and say 10,000 of them are being trained and the other 5000 make up a mix of instructors, sisters deployed there (fully trained, guards and stuff) general staff and top brass. Then work out how big a military force would need to be to support training that many people at once. And bare in mind that a novice can also be serving at other locations untill they are of age to become a proper sister.

 

Asking how big is an Order Majoris, is like asking how big is the imperial guard.

[Servant of Dante]

If you think about the it there Order Majoris could easily be over hundreds of thousands if you take into acount examples of sighting in the fluff.

 

Start with the 15,000 at the main convent. That's just sisters stationed there at any one time, if some are sent off some where the beds wouldn't stay empty they'd rotate sisters in to fill those empty beds. Add to that sisters serving on the Black Ships, Sisters posted in other locations such as the convent in te Fire and Faith novel hich I believe to be about 300 sisters or the Miission in Hammer and Anvil which I believe was about 50 sisters. And that's just examples of OoOML. Across the countless planets, space stations, and ships in the imperium it's impossible to count.

 

Even if you say that a military force would keep 10% of it's forces at HQ you still end up with an Order being 150,000 strong, but that's a bad example. The main Convents are more like a cross between an HQ and a boot camp, even if you low ball it and say 10,000 of them are being trained and the other 5000 make up a mix of instructors, sisters deployed there (fully trained, guards and stuff) general staff and top brass. Then work out how big a military force would need to be to support training that many people at once. And bare in mind that a novice can also be serving at other locations untill they are of age to become a proper sister.

 

Asking how big is an Order Majoris, is like asking how big is the imperial guard.

Ok, but you are completely ignoring the fact that we have numbers for the major orders. If you choose to ignore them that's fine, but you can't claim that there is no basis for saying that there are less than 100,000 Sisters militant at any given time (of course, this is also dependent on how many Orders Minoris you think there are).

 

The point is, there are maybe 42,000 Sisters in all 6 Major Orders combined during times when their sizes peak if you follow the official fluff.

[Drider]

I'm just trying to say if you math it out as realistically as possible you'd come up with at least 200,000 active Sister Militants per Major Order and that would mean at least 1,200,000 active Sister Militants across all 6 Major Orders. which is comparable to the size of the US Army. Either way you cut it the sisters would be spread pretty thinly across the Imperium and would still be a rare sight.  

[Beams]

The US midway had 4,104 officers and men onboard. Meaning the militant orders would barely have enough people to staff an aircraft carrier.

 

I think it's the case of Writers can't do math. Either way.

[Drider]

I'd like to think that each major order would be at the very least the size of the number of combatants in the combined US military. That would give a realistic number to start with, then each order would be spread over several galactic sectors of the imperium and you'd still end up with the same net result of Sisters being an extremely rare sight, but would actually give a realistic number that an Order could maintain a small presence on selected worlds and be able to wage a war on a planetary scale should the ecclesiarchy demand it. Bare in mind that even at this scale the combined numbers of the sisterhood would still be a drop in the ocean compared to the imperial guard.

 

At this scale it would place the numbers for a Minor order at anywhere from as small as a brigade or a regiment(1,500-4000) or as large as a division (10,000-18,000).

 

But this boils down to Cannon fluff Vs realism. Both are valid points of view.

[Servant of Dante]

I like the hyper elite idea. And I'm sticking to the fluff. *shrug*

 

All I ask is that people be aware of the fluff, regardless of what they think of it.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I think we should differentiate the Orders Militant (front line combatants) from the Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, Famulous, etc. (those who support the combatants). Using the comparison to the US Army, the tooth-to-tail ratio (of front line combatants vs. maintenance and support personnel) is approximately one-in-three, meaning for each Sister of Battle, there are three members of the Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous supporting her- usually from the rear lines, despite their undeniable courage and willingness to face the same dangers as the Sisters of Battle.

 

In short, although your Sororitas Order may only have 3000 Sisters of Battle, the total number of sisters can easily exceed 12,000, once the maintenance and support personnel are included. Hey, someone has to oil the boltguns, refuel the flamers, replace the meltagun fuses, hammer out dents and mend cracks in the power armor, etc., and I doubt the Adeptus Mechanicus will be wholly trusted to act in the Sisters' best interests.

[Drider]

To add to this, not all the support personnel will be from the sisterhood. Hammer and Anvil supports ecclesiarchal work gangs doing the lifting while the Order Militant focuses purely on combat operations.

[Servant of Dante]

To add to this, not all the support personnel will be from the sisterhood. Hammer and Anvil supports ecclesiarchal work gangs doing the lifting while the Order Militant focuses purely on combat operations.

Yes. I definitely agree with all this :)