Army Heraldry question

[Spikedhalo]

Hello again, Brothers in Blood!

 

Sorry, if this question is simple, but I am just at the beginning, so...

Following the Codex, every Chapter is Divided into companies. Each company is divided into squads.

Every Chapter wages several wars simultaneously, I think... So here is the question!

Let us assume, there is a Battle force for one such war - represented as my army.

There is a Commader of such force (Captain - Leader of one specific Company), and N of different squads, picked from different Companies, mainly from a company to which a Captain belongs, am I right?

Aaand... what Squad markings will be correct for this??

1. For example, now I am painting Company Command Squad + Captain. What Squad Markings must I use - White Skull on Black, 1st squad, for everyone or except Captain?

2. Next will be 2 Assault squads, and then what markings should I use? 2 and 3 - or ANY marking + right shoulder pad with 8th Company, for example?

 

Ok, I can go simple and say - Weeell, my men are Knights of Blood (and they really are), and they use different heraldry, BUT the Squad Marking for Company Command squad and my Captain still bothers me... I'm trying to understand Logic of the heraldry... because for BA it's essential)

I saw photos in Codex, and - Captain has no squad marking at all, and company command has different squads markings (I saw 5th squad on one veteran)... I am confused, really))

[Jolemai]

With regards to the Captain, use Tycho as an example. He's the third Company Captain, but uses his personal heraldry which is essentially his "design" superimposed on the third Company banner.

 

So your Captain can have whatever you fancy, but related to whatever Company he is from. His personal Command Squad can have similar (or a simplified version) in the place where squad markings go, with the shoulder still denoting their "rank" (i.e. Veteran status which is a skull).

 

Your RAS would be as you have listed if that's what you want.

 

Of course, I may be wrong!

[Leonaides]

Dont confuse army/crusade marks with chapter company/squad markings. Its is common for marines/squads from multiple companies to fight together in a single battle zone/campiagn and they will still wear their particular company and squad markings, but usually also display a campaign badge denoting that they are attached to that campaign. Campaign badges are usually simple geometric shapes, sometimes with an added symbol (for example a red triangle with a skull on top) and will be shown on vehicles and attached support equipment too. Technically your assault squads should probably be squads 7 and 8 (the lightning bolt symbol) but thats not necessarily a set-in-stone rule. 

 

I'm not sure which veteran image you are looking at but veteran squads will still display their 1st company squad designation symbol (first company squads are still numbered as well as named). Its also possible that the person picking the models for photos of the command squad made a boo-boo and just picked up a random veteran marine, not one painted specifically as a command squad guy.

[NTaW]

Aren't Command Squads taken from the 1st Company veterans, consequently having squad and Company markings as such?

[Leonaides]

herein lies one of the holes in the 1000 marine myth, and an area for personal interpretation. Company command squads could either be first company veterans attached to the company as bodyguards/banner bearers/battlefield inspiration for the line marines, or they could be the veteran troopers from the battle company (so veterans) though not yet ascended to the ranks of the first company (so not yet Veterans). Note the capital letter there - veterans (experienced troops) are not always Veterans (rank).

[NTaW]

herein lies one of the holes in the 1000 marine myth, and an area for personal interpretation. Company command squads could either be first company veterans attached to the company as bodyguards/banner bearers/battlefield inspiration for the line marines, or they could be the veteran troopers from the battle company (so veterans) though not yet ascended to the ranks of the first company (so not yet Veterans). Note the capital letter there - veterans (experienced troops) are not always Veterans (rank).

The Codex blurb on them (pg. 67) states specifically that Command Squads are taken from warriors of the 1st Company and later uses a lower case 'v' when calling them veterans. The only time 'veterans' is capitalized is when it's in the name of a unit, for example Vanguard Veterans or Sternguard Veterans, but still in the blurb for them GW refers to them as 'veterans of the 1st Company'.

So....not much room for interpretation or grammar lessons methinks. My own fault for not just quoting the Codex initially

[Arkangilos]

The thing is, when they are taken from the Veteran company they are no longer part of it, so they won't have veteran company insignia.

They may have honors that denote they were veterans, but they are now part of whatever company they are part of.

So it would go like this:

 

Marine promoted to veteran company squad 2 -> marine distinguished himself further -> Captain Tycho picks him to join 3rd company honor guard -> leaves first company, becomes third company -> a new marine promoted to his spot.

[NTaW]

All GW official pictures I can find (ref. 7th ed. BA Codex, SoB Leviathan, SoB Exterminatus, Angel's Blade, Song of Sanguinius Painting Guide) only have Command Squads depicted with gold helmets with no squad markings mentioned or shown. Even the blurbs aren't helping with it, so I'll offer this conclusion:

 

Captain of a Battle Company takes personnel from the 1st Company veterans as his bodyguard, squad members replaced, as per Arkangelos' suggestion. I'll add it seemed from the painting guide that those members selected from the 1st were previously members of the 2nd Company, and that depending on Chapter engagements and recruitment at the time it may be more of a 1st Co. reorganization than a promotion from another Battle Company. Either way, once the aforementioned 1st Company veteran joins a Battle Company honour guard, a squad outside of standard Codex battlefield organization, he eschews all previous squad markings but keeps the gold helm as a mark of his veteran status. 

[Xenith]

From the 3rd ed codex, honour guard (Command squad) markings are a black veteran skull on the right shoulder pad in place of the usual white one.

 

No squad number markings as they are not part of squads 1-10.

 

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpa_hpW1nBtfxwf8BK6YSLgG-yHsdmN3hdjLCN7LPFjAh02GXpamlns8gl

[Arkangilos]

That was back when veterans had whatever helmet designations they were (like assault had yellow). :D Honestly I preferred it when honor guard were the only ones with gold helmets.

[Xenith]

Assault veterans had yellow helms, white skull company icon.

Honour guard had gold helms black skull in place of company icon.

I guess you could give the honour guard the company icon on the left, but including he black skull somewhere might work.

My company Champion has both.

Heraldry

[Damon Nightman]

Did you freehand that skull xenith?

 

Soooo good!

[Xenith]

Yup, all freehand! There's a tutorial in my plog and the forge section :)

[JasonfromFW]

As I understand it, the company champion is a member of the company, he's not taken from 1st company.

 

Thus, he should have a gold helmet (champion) but company marking (colored blood drop not skull) on the shoulder. Maybe a personal icon since he's kind of second in command just after the captain.

[Closet Skeleton]

Command squads aren't part of the codex astartes command structure, but apothecaries and standard bearers are.

In 2nd edition, command squads didn't exist and techmarines, apothecaries and standard bearers were separate independent charcters. Dante had a 5 man bodyguard of veterans but it didn't have any specialists in it and regular captains didn't get one. Dante's bodyguard were the only first company non-terminator veterans shown in the colour section in the 2nd ed codex and had gold helmets and the first company skull badge on their shoulder pad.

In 3rd edition they introduced the force organisation chart with only two HQ slots, so the command squad consisting of a sergeant and 4-9 marines with, techmarine, apothecary and standard bearer upgrade options was created by giving every commander an equivalent to Dante's bodyguard. 2 of them could take a heavy or special weapon. The Blood Angels got an honour guard that was the same but couldn't take heavy weapons but could take jump packs. The marines had to be upgraded to veterans. Veteran assault squads got yellow helmets, honour guards without jump packs got red helmets while Dante's bodyguard still got gold helmets.

In 4th edition, techmarines got split off. Company Champions were added as an upgrade but the squad still had a separate sergeant by default as well who could still be upgraded to a veteran sergeant. At least that's how it worked for regular marines and Black Templars, I don't have the 4th ed BA book.

5th edition brought us the modern command (still honour guard for BA) squad limited to 5 men and with no separate sergeant from the Company champion who now had +1 WS (blood champion for BA). The 5th ed fluff stated that Honour Guard veterans were sometimes but not always seconded from the First Company. The codex also gave all power armour veterans gold helmets and introduced Stern Guard.

7th ed renamed Honour Guard to Command Squad like everyone else but on the up side the term Honour Guard is still mentioned as being used and Blood Champion is gone as a term.

This is why their position is confusing, they weren't part of the original fluff. My assumption is that Command squads are actually kind of ad-hoc formations so while the standard bearer and apothecary are part of the company the other 3 guys might be from anywhere.

As I understand it, the company champion is a member of the company, he's not taken from 1st company.

Thus, he should have a gold helmet (champion) but company marking (colored blood drop not skull) on the shoulder. Maybe a personal icon since he's kind of second in command just after the captain.

The Chaplain is second in command of the company, as far as I can tell the champion isn't even an officer even if he might lead the command squad.

The Company Champion is just that, a champion. Its a ceremonial position not a rank. He might have another rank as well to make him an officer but his job is to just focus on being badass.

[Spikedhalo]

Wow!!! When I asked my question, I coundn't imagine that I will hear so much new information for me... Thank you, guys, for sharing your fluff knowledge and your opinion about this question. Your answers all we important to me) I really feel myself as if in Brotherhood)

Soon enough I will show the results of my painting and - of this discussion) Many thanks, you helped me a lot!

[Spagunk]

So I have an old school command squad which were armed with bolters because I believe the PDF codex allowed them to have special ammo. Useless now.

 

Anyway, my current jump command squad are all outfitted as any weapon that a captain may be armed with. My idea is that the command squad are all units who served as a captain for a strike force and so they formed the core of the advisors/command squad for my main captain. That's just my take on it.

 

I believe I use the 3rd edition version of squad/squad markings but I have to look again.

[Leonaides]

Chaplain is not second in command of the Company - that would be the First Sergeant/Senior Veteran Sergeant of the Company who would take control should the captain be incapacitated during action. Chaplains are and must be outside the regular chain of command in order to fulfil their primary purpose of being a chaplain - let alone they will not be as fully trained in tactics as the company squad sergeants...

[Arkangilos]

I want to say that was retconned with the SM codex. The Demi company can be led by a captain or a chaplain, and if you take one led by both it is considered a full company with certain rules. That means you have the captain and a chaplain as the commanders.

[Arkangilos]

As a side note, closet skeleton, all honor guard (not just Dante's) had gold helmets in third edition. However, Sometimes Dante was depicted with honor guard that were completely cold.

[Leonaides]

Mixing fluff and tt rules there i think arkangelios...

 

Rules wise yes a chaplain can lead, but thats not fluffy for the majority of chapters.

[Arkangilos]

Are you sure it didn't say that? I don't have the codice on hand, but I could have sworn it said something along those lines.

[NTaW]

If a Chapter Master falls to the Rage the head Chaplain and Priest take over their duties and assure the next candidate is good for the role (as per the BA Codex), I don't think it would be weird for a Company Chaplain to step up if a Company Captain were slain/fell to the Rage.

 

It sure seemed like that's exactly what happened with the 5th Company in Angel's Blade, but I didn't read Traitor's Hate first or at all yet so I don't know the whole story.

[Leonaides]

Quite simply, a chaplains training leaves him poorly suited to advanced company level/support tactics unless he has neen around a long time. Whereas a line marine who progresses to be senior squad sergeant of a company is better trained and a far more experienced (and probably more capable) command choice due to the extra half day every day of training and tactics theory he will have done every single day when the chaplain bunks off to do chaplain duties.

[Arkangilos]

I think you are seriously under estimating their ability and over estimating the necessity of the captain.

 

In real life, it takes four years to become a captain (promote through three ranks) and lead a company. Captains can effeciently lead a company, despite not training every hour of every day.

 

One reason for this is that each company is split into platoons, and each NCO knows what they are doing (generally). A captain only needs to say what the mission is, and the rest of the company can execute.

 

The extra training that normal marines get compared to chaplains is to build muscle memory. The chaplain is usually already a veteran when selected (in fact their abilities and zeal are how they are selected). This means that they already have that muscle memory, and can devote that time to other matters.

 

Now let's look at it from this perspective: you have an officer (and you can look it up anywhere, standard space marine chapters are specifically said to be leaders, who lead from the front, so already they are a leader figure), who does not also have to look out for nine other people. He is skilled at war (which you cannot deny is true), is inspirational, and is generally wise.

On the other hand you have an NCO, who already has his own squad to look after.

 

Which would you pick? The squad's don't need the captain to be specific. They need direction. All the chaplain has to do is allocate resources (which even privates and specialists in today's military are taught), and come up with a general plan. The captain does not have to continue giving orders unless there is a major change of plan, his NCO's know what to do.

 

None of this matters to the BA though, because ours are specific in terms of task, they lead the Death Company and so already have command responsibilities.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the new formations that I mentioned are based on fluff, so in terms of formation the rules do match the fluff, and we can use them as evidence of organization.