Anyone experiencing Betrayal nostalgia?

[depthcharge12]

About 4 years ago we saw the emergence of the Horus Heresy coalesced into the black books we know and love today. I just wanted to write up something here looking through rose tinted glasses as my nostalgia has been heavy as of late.

 

With the release of Book 1: Betrayal, I think no one, not even Forgeworld, predicted the outcome and widespread Heresy mania. This came at a time many of us were disenfranchised with that current incarnation of the 40k rules and GW behavior. The Heresy gave many of us a way to play what we loved in a different manner, and a way to recreate what we read in the BL books.

 

Crazy things abounded for marine armies - Legion wide rules, Primarchs (!), 20 man tactical squads, Rites of War, true grit marines, jetbike squads, legion only units (there is some slight vitriol in this one since 40k has seen proliferation of special units), upgradable chosen command squads, consuls, Fellblades :D, and a variety of non typical tank and artillery units.

 

This was a game changer I believe for many, and it was less of "I like to play green marines, non blue marines" since one could be uniquely guided by a certain legion mindset.

 

Sure there would be only marine on marine for a time, but we eventually saw Mechanicum forces, Solar Auxilia, Knight Houses, and cult armies evolve. We didn't really know 4 years ago how deep that rabbit hole went.

 

Ironically, I remember Prospero was supposedly the 3rd or 4th book as well :P at least at the time....

 

I just want to thank you guys so far for 4 years of being part of the ship, part of the crew ;) here's to at least another 4!!!!

[Caustic63]

Unlike previous instalments from Forgeworld, 30K was basically a totally different game using the same rules. The advantage that Betrayal age Horus Heresy had was that it provided a way to play Warhammer that circumvented pretty much all the balance issues that had evolved in that age's version of 40K. The fact that it also had the lucky fortune of fleshing out 4 legions that had their rules taken away in 40K meant that dissatisfied Chaos Marines players had a distraction they could indulge in while they waited (a very long time) to get the Traitor Legions rules they wanted.

 

That being said, the internal balance back then was off in the game - Assault Marines were overcosted to the point of being total junk and everybody had a Spartan with Armoured Ceramite. The Legion rules were very basic, and as Massacre and Extermination came out it became apparent that the original Legions were lacking compared to the newer ones. The release of "Red Books" which compiled and updated everyone's rules collectively has turned out to be a major blessing for the game because it allowed the power creep of newer legions to be curbed and accounted for.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if, with the release of Codex: Traitor Legions, 30K painted armies with some additions start showing up in 40K.

[Gorgoff]

I totally agree both of you and only add one question.

Why should I play against 40k armies since every game I don't make against one of my HH dudes is a total waste of time for me? ;)

[Caustic63]

I totally agree both of you and only add one question.

Why should I play against 40k armies since every game I don't make against one of my HH dudes is a total waste of time for me?

I think that in a 1v1 game of a 30K army versus a current 40K army, it can be pretty fair with the points cost adjustments made in the most recent red book. The trouble comes when the Force Organisation charts are ignored and formations come into play. 30K Rites of War are not the same thing, because they do come with a cost (you need to get a model that's a Master of the Legion) and have drawbacks which for some of them can be quite crippling.

Even if the game is unfair though, it can still be good practise for games against 30K opponents.

[Jarkaira]

We had a weekend tournament with 30K against 40K Xenos and each 30K army kicked ass against Xenos (Especially Orks which don't have access to AP2 Weapons). Of course none brought their Eldar armies and armies most have been done with Age of Darkness FOC.

[Gorgoff]

It's not about Power Levels or even about the player. I always have a blast playing with my 40k mates but it their armies have a different more gamy spirit then 30k armies. The whole ruleset feels different and more comic like.

[depthcharge12]

It's not about Power Levels or even about the player. I always have a blast playing with my 40k mates but it their armies have a different more gamy spirit then 30k armies. The whole ruleset feels different and more comic like.

Athrawes and I really like the War of lies game set...I'd play the specific missions too but I feel that we need more players to have a campaign.

 

Anyone else remember that Destroyers were the cool kids on the block and Moritats drew more fire than Leviathans of today?

 

All the Siege Vangaurd enthusiasts were happy with breachers being included (though no siege mantlets unfortunately). We also got Kheres dreads, graviton weapons, and VOLKITES!!!!

 

The lists were a bit identical at the time till the next few books came out with new units and awesomeness.

[noigrim]

Well there have been sevrral filler books (3rd, 4th and 6th) the next one won't be one of those revolving around prospero but the 8th will probably be filler again without rules for the khan or sanguinius.

[depthcharge12]

Does anyone have any particularly fond memories of when the first book was released that they want to share? It was my freshman year of college, so it was an exciting time to be alive.

[ThatOneMarshal]

I remember scrolling through the forgeworld website, looking with wonder at all these strange and new models. I think only Angron, the basic marines, jetbikes and the felblade were available at the time. I also remember looking at the prices and having a miniature heart attack.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It just keeps getting better for now. Good times for sure.

[Vazzy]

I was a junior in High School at the time, and had had no idea it was coming out. I'd just started Heresy Ultramarines after reading Know No Fear, and after that, 40k disappeared from my life. I got Betrayal for Christmas, and was just in awe of the whole affair. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love ever game of 30k I played... can't say that about 40k.

[noigrim]

The best part of the new book for me was the legion super heavies, now the marines could get guard toys too!

Primarchs and special characthers had homebrew rules before (BoLS) but those tanks and "weird" units (breachers!) were something never seen before

It was a gush of fresh air into my stale 40k for sure, playing GK & Guard had become boring after all and the heresy offered many possibilites

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Four years on I have a bigger pile of miniatures, more books under my belt and still haven't committed to a legion. I have at least narrowed it down to a shortlist of 10. :-(

 

Still, excited to see more, especially Inferno.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

You know, I remember walking into my local store, and the manager looks at me and just smiles. He doesn't say anything just smile and give a white dwarf to me (he has known me for years now and I was working on a fully sculpted mk3 sons of horus army). I open the white dwarf, and I see: Angron, Betrayal and the first nods to the heresy in full version. O almost screamed in happiness.

[m_r_parker]

I wouldn't say I'm experiencing nostalgia, but I can certainly remember back to when it first came out.

 

First I need to set the scene. We'd just recently had the Badab books, and a swathe of Heresy-era armour marks and weapons. Looking back, I can see that this was (partially at least) a test run to see how well sales of the pre-Heresy models would go, and what appetite there is for large scale marine vs marine gaming. ForgeWorld were only starting to branch out into rank and file troops, they were up until that point more focussed on larger items such as titans, dreadnoughts, and larger scale tanks. There'd been a couple of ForgeWorld armies released up until that point, DKoK in particular and the prominence of the Red Scorpions as the FW chapter of choice.

Also, this was initially released at UK Games Day, and if I recall correctly the last UK Games Day to be held in the Birmingham NEC (It might have been the penultimate, but I'm fairly sure it was the last one). Games Day meant more than WarhammerFest does now (at least in my eyes), most UK GW stores would put on a coach to send customers up to the event, and not to mention the scores of people who would make their own way to the event. You could feel the atmosphere as you waited outside the main doors, knowing that your first stop (and probably 25% - 33% of everyone there) would be right at the back of the centre to where the ForgeWorld sales stand was. This particular year there was a more organised effort not he FW / GW side to create an organised and structured way for people to queue for ForgeWorld - previous years there was nothing more than a line of tables with FW staff on one side and customers on the other. The scrum to get to the table would always be immense, you couldn't help but feel you were on an Underground train it was so cramped, there would be a constant call out from the FW guys for order as the weight of customers was pushing the tables back, and the certainty that you weren't actually moving forward to the table - in fact one year I was noticeably moving further away from the table. Those were dark times back then, you would queue for the majority of the morning to get to the table only to fail to get the attention of anyone on the other side. You would eventually be able to get some items, find that certain things were already sold out, and then after paying turn around and try to fight again to get away from the tables - and people wouldn't want to step aside to let you out as they would undoubtedly lose their place in the 'queue'. This time, there was a structured line  and everything felt more controlled.

 

I can't remember much of what was available at the event specific for 30k. There was Book 1, and Angron, but I can't honestly remember what else was there. I think we might have seen some of the first Contemptors there (World Eaters, maybe Death Guard) and maybe some shoulder pads, but I can't really recall.

 

As we were waiting in the queue there would be GW guys heading up and down the line with copies of Angron and Book 1, trying to thin the line by giving those out to people who only wanted those two from the FW store and directing them to the tills to pay. I wanted other things, so stayed in line and waited for my copies when I got to the front. I do remember some people stopping the guy working the line to get their copies of the book and Primarch, and waiting in line to get the rest of their FW orders, and I do remember feeling that if there weren't enough books or Angrons there when I got to the front that I would be immensely peeved that people like that 'cheated the system' - fortunately there were plenty.

 

I think I spent most of the event going through the book in awe. I'd spent some of the time looking at some of the various displays, but most of my time was spent in the main arena seating area trying to digest exactly what we'd got. Up until that point the largest codex we had was probably the SM codex, but the amount of options and flexibility in the book 1 list blew that out of the water. There was already so much choice in there, and the scale felt suitably epic too. 20 man tactical squads, tank units, and one of the first mechanisms to allow Lords of War choices in regular gaming. There was the starts of a Mechanicum list (at a time where only a few people would have ever scratch built their own forces, and had no rules to use them), the initial 4 Legions were covered to give your forces more personalisation, and he Rites of War section to move units around the FOC and give your armies even more customisation. There was so much to choose from, it felt like you could realistically build any type of force you wanted but couldn't in the main 40k ruleset. There was completely new stuff in that book that we hadn't really seen before, and items which people had hoped for and were really able to use for the first time. There were rulesets for legendary characters that we'd read about in the novels, and could now game with. 

 

And Primarchs, we now had rules for Primarchs, and one with a model too! 

 

It was after this that my interaction with ForgeWorld changed in it's entirety. Up until that point I was only buying resin at Games Day, I wasn't buying that much of it, and had only just started to think about having a FW-only 40k army (which were going to be Imperial Fists). Nobody really gamed with ForgeWorld either, there was still a stigma there of it being overpowered with rules that nobody really knew because people weren't buying the books. Few people regularly used FW models either, and when people did a lot of the time was spent by people gathering round and looking at the resin Dreadnought or Tank. Once the Heresy line of models started flowing, I started buying more frequently and in larger quantities, to the point where I no longer baulk at spending £250 to get free shipping and am actively looking to push past that point. Whereas I used to have a few models from ForgeWorld and have a couple of 'wishlist' items that I'd hope to get one day, I now probably buy more resin than plastic - and still have lots of 'wishlist' ideas of stuff I want to do.

 

That initial HH release really was a turning point in the hobby for me. After that point I began to feel disenchanted with GW in the main, as codex creep was well on it's way and frankly some of the newer models were getting a little silly. 30k felt more like older 40k (like 2nd or 3rd Edition) just with a much broader army list to play from. ForgeWorld started to really make waves in the local gaming scene as more people were looking at Heresy models and armies, and the stigma around FW was slowly dropping. It was a real nexus point.

[Memento Of Prospero]

At the risk of sounding overly salty, here's how nostalgia has hit me pretty hard in the past couple of months.

 

Betrayal was a great time because of the unveiling of a primarch yes, but also because this subforum was plasttered with awesome everywhere. It was rife with discussion that explored so many angles of things to come, everyone was just happy to talk about the setting and the board was frequenty by members who poured their souls into making heresy armies. Armies actually composed of flesh and blood marines. Every few days a new thread would pop up, with tons of insightful posts and ideas - tolerance.

 

Overtime, it changed... let's just say things are just no longer the same.

[Lord Blackwood]

At the risk of sounding overly salty, here's how nostalgia has hit me pretty hard in the past couple of months.

 

Betrayal was a great time because of the unveiling of a primarch yes, but also because this subforum was plasttered with awesome everywhere. It was rife with discussion that explored so many angles of things to come, everyone was just happy to talk about the setting and the board was frequenty by members who poured their souls into making heresy armies. Armies actually composed of flesh and blood marines. Every few days a new thread would pop up, with tons of insightful posts and ideas - tolerance.

 

Overtime, it changed... let's just say things are just no longer the same.

 T n T  ouch my feels 

[Marshal Rohr]

At the risk of sounding overly salty, here's how nostalgia has hit me pretty hard in the past couple of months.

 

Betrayal was a great time because of the unveiling of a primarch yes, but also because this subforum was plasttered with awesome everywhere. It was rife with discussion that explored so many angles of things to come, everyone was just happy to talk about the setting and the board was frequenty by members who poured their souls into making heresy armies. Armies actually composed of flesh and blood marines. Every few days a new thread would pop up, with tons of insightful posts and ideas - tolerance.

 

Overtime, it changed... let's just say things are just no longer the same.

 

So, so true. I think it was around the time Heresy Army Lists got its own sub-forum and the fluff and modelers got drowned out by a deluge of Battlescribe lists. Its an awesome tool, and super helpful, but it does lend itself to saturating the forum with army lists and sucking the oxygen out of the fluff sections. 

[Olis]

I remember when Betrayal turned up at my door. The box didn't explicitly give away that it was the FW book but I knew. I knew. It was the first treat I gave myself for a while (I was out of work at the time) and I had specifically saved for it. Looking at that black, hard-backed book with the deadly metal corners and silver-gilded pages, I knew the production quality was going to be high. The content itself was, suffice it to say, a departure from the norm. A new stable of units, new weapons (Volkites get the biggest shout out from me here :wink: ) and new background material all pointed to a life-raft away from the increasingly bloated (imo at least) last two editions of the 40k rules. There was so much to gawk at, I don't think many of us knew where to look (except towards Alan Bligh) after the multiple bomb-shells in the book. 

 

Where did we go from there? Onwards and upwards. Book two was still over the horizon but the impact of the first almost absolutely assured me that it would be worth staying with the series (I did) and see where it goes. Asides from holding out for Imperial Fists, I've had no impatience for each release and I've found all of them to be interesting or even enthralling. The collection of magnificent black books, augmented by a smattering of red ones, look wonderful together - even if Betrayal is looking ever so slightly worn around the edges now. 

[KBA]

4 years. Gone in a blink.

 

What hit me most about Betrayal was the amount of fluff in those fancy pages. I was expecting Pirmarch and legion rules, but not the depth of fluff that book had. It felt like an eternity waiting for Raven Gaurd rules (my sympathies for those still waiting) and the irony of it all turned out to be the Legion I would end up with, the Sons of Horus, had their stuff since Betrayal. Right under my nose all along.

[Kais Klip]

Four years on I have a bigger pile of miniatures, more books under my belt and still haven't committed to a legion. I have at least narrowed it down to a shortlist of 10. :-(

 

Still, excited to see more, especially Inferno.

 

I wonder if that means great IP design or fickleness on our part. I for one love the aesthetic of certain legions (Blood Angels, Thousand Sons), but I can't bring myself to like them, no matter how hard the crunch or ideals persuade me. 

 

Its why I keep looking forward to new releases; I just need to know a little bit more before I commit ;) 

[depthcharge12]

4 years. Gone in a blink.

 

What hit me most about Betrayal was the amount of fluff in those fancy pages. I was expecting Pirmarch and legion rules, but not the depth of fluff that book had. It felt like an eternity waiting for Raven Gaurd rules (my sympathies for those still waiting) and the irony of it all turned out to be the Legion I would end up with, the Sons of Horus, had their stuff since Betrayal. Right under my nose all along.

I think waiting for my Dark Angels has only made it more worth it. I wish they had released the current rules a bit earlier, but I can't wait for book 8 to come out. It has made me enjoy and absorb all the other books as well.