Tyriks Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Geno- just means people group, though, ethno- meant a racial group. There have been plenty of non racial genocides. The word by definition need not be racial. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieJGoulding Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Concerning morality, is there a line which is forbidden to cross? [...] I know that warhammer is all about being grim dark and there are no truely good guys out there but does the setting have restrictions? It does indeed. Editorially, there are several rules that would require exceptional circumstances to break: 1) No sexual acts. The POV has to "pan away to the billowing curtains" before we see anything too graphic, as Lindsey Priestley puts it. It's generally left it to the imagination. This also goes for sexualised humour, and you'd be surprised how many aspiring authors can't grasp this... And it's also the reason why 90% of submissions involving the word "Slaanesh" get rejected. Nuance, people. Nuance. 2) Truly evil or sadistic characters will get their comeuppance. It might not be in that specific story, maybe later in a series or whatever, but you'll notice that Warhammer fiction often falls short of showing big named characters (like Abaddon, or Khârn) engaging in reprehensible, unjustified acts... even though they probably do, a lot. This is because it's harder to punish/kill them, as opposed to "a senior lieutenant" who actually does the dirty work. Basically, really horrible stuff has to have a moral repercussion later, with some semblance of justice being done. (Little Horus, I've got my eye on you...) 3) No graphic violence against the defenceless. Civilians and other unwilling participants cannot be shown getting shot, stabbed, mutilated, except as collateral damage. This does tie into the second point above, but generally non-combatants or the truly defenceless can't get ganked on-screen. 4) Children are a difficult area, morally - avoid if possible. It's really hard to justify using a child to make a narrative point and avoid all the other points above, so it's generally easier to find another route. For example, Gav originally had Tuchulcha inhabiting a much younger body, but it created some very uncomfortable implications, especially as he is a servitor - what crime could a 4-year old have committed? Also Graham McNeill's 'Wolf Mother' was originally much more graphic, in the ritual sacrifices. Both of these had to be toned down a little. The Night Lords example cited above is an interesting one, as die-hard fans will notice that the omnibus and special edition trilogy boxed set have a few scenes edited from the original novels. This was actually because BL received THREE official complaints (in writing) about violence against children, from upset readers. We have to take these things seriously, because although BL deals with far more mature themes than regular GW Publications, we're still directly marketing to 12+ age group in our stores. We also got some flak for a line in 'Macragge's Honour' where a Space Marine's line of dialogue was just "B*stard!" This graphic novel was on sale, being pushed by GW store managers to customers of all ages, and this was seen to be a little gratuitous. There is a list of unacceptable curse words which is constantly reviewed and tweaked, and tends to be quite reactive to recent concerns. I actually think it's a little bit over the top, but them's the rules... But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Thank you for giving us an insight. :) This will help me in terms of "how far can I go" while writing stuff. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster The Lobster Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 It's always good to get some insight into the BL process. The only point that I would personally argue against is the second one. For me it creates a scenario were you create good vs evil. Which isn't really that grimdark. The second thing, is that it's simply quite predictable. The evil mastermind dies his mustache twirling and the author created villains die, in an effort to show that evil deeds can't go unpunished. Though to add something to this thread, it would be nice if BL created a line were the intended age group is higher. Sort of like Marvel has with, what I think is called Max. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. Little late to the party Darth, we've already established this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. I don't think that's really solid ground for the imperium being good, or even decent. Essentially the hope spots in the Imperium are the result of a lack of control or resources, not from any inherent goodness in the heart of it's rulers who have callousness on par if not often exceeding the likes of Hitler or Stalin. Psychopaths are deliberately found and recruited into the highest echelons of the imperiums hierarchy because empathy and compassion are more likely to lead to corruption and damnation in the Imperiums eyes. There can be no empathy, no understanding for the enemy because that makes a chink in their armor and is all Chaos needs to take root. It was played for laughs in Dark Apostle, but we're talking about people who consider bulldozing piles of corpses into factories to produce nutri paste as a solid trade off, millions pointlessly sent to their deaths with a few inches of ground being made is considered a solid 'win' in the imperiums textbook because the whole 'million is a statistic' deal has been taken to it's logical extreme. At best you might wind up on a relatively peaceful but heavily inbred agri world where you may eek out a few happy stress free years before someone like Kryptman decides to dump the life eater virus on your head so the nearest Hive Fleet doesn't turn you into bio fuel. That the imperium cannot make every world an Orwellian horror isn't a good reason for them to be the good, or even the 'alright' guys, it just means they are impotent and that impotency is probably one of the largest reasons they are doomed hilariously enough. If there is a way to prove that the Imperium are the good guys...for the futility of that even being a thing...it's with a 'ends justify the means' argument. Because all these nasty things? They are necessary to mankinds survival, but the consideration of if a place of nothing but misery and pain is worth living in has long since passed from your average inquisitors mind. Worlds are occasionally allowed a measure of autonomy because the Imperium can't get around to driving a jackboot into their throats, not out of any kindness in their heart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah32 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 After reading the excellent Horus Heresy novel Pharos, I can see now why Guy was really skirting the line with the night lords as some of the material in this novel is pretty dark and graphic which I bloody love Guy gets them, I would love to see him tackle Konrad and more night lords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Though to add something to this thread, it would be nice if BL created a line were the intended age group is higher. Sort of like Marvel has with, what I think is called Max. It's worth noting, though, that it's something editorial has to be aware of, sure - but that doesn't mean the authors are writing for that market. I don't sit down and take a year and a half to write a book aimed at twelve-year-olds (and I daresay your average twelve-year-old would be bored to tears by several of my books, especially the Chaos ones). It's more like a movie rating, really. Plenty of PG-13 movies these days are just 18s with a few careful edits. It's not necessarily created and aimed directly at the kiddywinkles, or otherwise softened up and dumbed down. It doesn't necessarily mean something is lost. I can think of maybe three or four scenes tops in the entirety of my BL career that got axed or parsed down, and I don't think "You can write for this new line where you can say the F-word and kill children in lurid detail" would change much for anyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 To be totally honest, using the F word in 40k speak would be really jarring. Like if a space marine chapter master said 'totes', 'basic', 'dude', 'lit as heck', or 'sup'. Besides, ':cuss the Emperor' isn't as inspiring or epic as 'death to the emperor'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster The Lobster Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Though to add something to this thread, it would be nice if BL created a line were the intended age group is higher. Sort of like Marvel has with, what I think is called Max. It's worth noting, though, that it's something editorial has to be aware of, sure - but that doesn't mean the authors are writing for that market. I don't sit down and take a year and a half to write a book aimed at twelve-year-olds (and I daresay your average twelve-year-old would be bored to tears by several of my books, especially the Chaos ones). It's more like a movie rating, really. Plenty of PG-13 movies these days are just 18s with a few careful edits. It's not necessarily created and aimed directly at the kiddywinkles, or otherwise softened up and dumbed down. It doesn't necessarily mean something is lost. I can think of maybe three or four scenes tops in the entirety of my BL career that got axed or parsed down, and I don't think "You can write for this new line where you can say the F-word and kill children in lurid detail" would change much for anyone. I definitely agree that using the f words and killing just for the sake of it doesn't make a better story. That is something your novels have proven to me a lot of time. We're you use the readers imagination to come to their own conclusions, or use sensuality instead of sexuality Though that said, I grew up in Sweden in the 90s were censoring or just cancellation of everything remotely offensive happened. So I tend to overreact when I think about limiting what authors can write about Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I think if the Imperium was portrayed as the worst, bloodiest regime imaginable (or whatever the book says it is), most people would have a really hard time with it. Because some things are clearly evil, if we saw characters doing those things over and over, it gets harder to relate to characters. Especially with younger kids being a target audience, I don't think it'd be practically feasible to churn out the number of books they do while maintaining a balance. Further, the Imperium itself is the problem here. There can be legitimately kind and compassionate people inside a harsh tyranny. So even if every BL book shows us situations that aren't that bad, and planetary governors who go out of their way for their citizens, we offer lyrics ever see a fraction of a percent of the worlds in the Imperium, so it's not very persuasive to say that because we don't see it often, it must not be true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I think the fact that we *dont* see it that way is just an indication that we have no real ties with with it. The fluff is littered with examples of it being such. Whole planets destroyed for a single daemon, entire populations executed or sent to forced labor until death because of some infractions. But the pain is on such a scale we pass it off for the same reason we read and are fascinated by the world wars. The deaths are just numbers. I'm not saying the Imperium is bad (I don't think it is. It literally has every reason to do what it does). I'm just saying that it is accurately portrayed in the way it is described, but like everything that involves more than a few personal deaths, it just becomes a numbers game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Also, it will be hard to depict it through characters because them, it's normal. The Imperial guard never get to return home, the space marine gives up everything he had, the Imperial servant works all day and goes to church. That is their life, and short of heresy that is all they know. Anytime they learn about something else they rebel. So it's hard to have characters going, "I hate this! This sucks!" In order to do that they have to have a point of comparison, and they don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster The Lobster Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 What I love about the morality of 40k, when its done right, is the yin yang nature of it. No one is completely good or wholly bad. It's up to the reader to determine it based on their own moral code Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieJGoulding Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Emperor Palpatine from 'Star Wars'. Ommadon from 'The Flight of Dragons'. Unicron from 'Transformers: The Movie'. Sauron from 'The Lord of the Rings' Four villains who never once felt the need to say " " or torture a child on-screen, and yet are the embodiments of absolute evil. Shrug. It's about how much you're willing to invest in writing a character or plot. I find 'Hostel' possibly one of the most tedious films I've ever sat down to watch, because it's just so obvious. Oh yes, lots of torture and blood and swearing... but it's just so obvious. Shortcuts to establish horror. Zzzzz. Get creative. Build some menace and character. In fact, you know what's scarier than 'Hostel'? 'Saw', once you start building in Jigsaw's motives. Those films are actually really great - even though most people lump them together with 'Hostel', they couldn't be more different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 If the Protomen could create a horrific dystopian rock opera using friggen Megaman as their basis then I think you can convey tyranny without dipping into that kind of stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4594994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. I don't think that's really solid ground for the imperium being good, or even decent. Essentially the hope spots in the Imperium are the result of a lack of control or resources, not from any inherent goodness in the heart of it's rulers who have callousness on par if not often exceeding the likes of Hitler or Stalin. Psychopaths are deliberately found and recruited into the highest echelons of the imperiums hierarchy because empathy and compassion are more likely to lead to corruption and damnation in the Imperiums eyes. There can be no empathy, no understanding for the enemy because that makes a chink in their armor and is all Chaos needs to take root. It was played for laughs in Dark Apostle, but we're talking about people who consider bulldozing piles of corpses into factories to produce nutri paste as a solid trade off, millions pointlessly sent to their deaths with a few inches of ground being made is considered a solid 'win' in the imperiums textbook because the whole 'million is a statistic' deal has been taken to it's logical extreme. At best you might wind up on a relatively peaceful but heavily inbred agri world where you may eek out a few happy stress free years before someone like Kryptman decides to dump the life eater virus on your head so the nearest Hive Fleet doesn't turn you into bio fuel. That the imperium cannot make every world an Orwellian horror isn't a good reason for them to be the good, or even the 'alright' guys, it just means they are impotent and that impotency is probably one of the largest reasons they are doomed hilariously enough. If there is a way to prove that the Imperium are the good guys...for the futility of that even being a thing...it's with a 'ends justify the means' argument. Because all these nasty things? They are necessary to mankinds survival, but the consideration of if a place of nothing but misery and pain is worth living in has long since passed from your average inquisitors mind. Worlds are occasionally allowed a measure of autonomy because the Imperium can't get around to driving a jackboot into their throats, not out of any kindness in their heart. See, here's a thing: Entirely a third of moral theorems relies on the "ends justify the means" argument. One of the three major branches of ethics is consequentialism, that relies on that exact principle... though we like to word it with a lot of complex terms and difficult to grasp logical equations, because it makes us seem more smart. I've come to realise over the years (and reading some studies) that majority of people view good in a very deontological way. The deed A is bad. That is all there is too it. But when you go into detailed study of morality, things become a lot less clear. Intuitive understanding of morality is the most practical one, but it also very rarely holds up to scrutiny and basically amounts to "I like A. A is good. I dislike B. B is evil.". I will not bore you with details (though I can expand if you want), but basically, if there is proper justification to an action, then there are ethical theories under which those actions (and people that perpetrate them) can be considered good. It cannot be stated objectively (because objectivity under rules of logic is a lot harder than what people usually mean when they say something is objective), but it can be argued and it can be proven. And, in my personal view, I consider going for the extremes that you mention to be a bad writing, and one that substantially diminishes the main themes of the setting. Humanity in 40k should be doomed because it resorts to extreme measures and does anything it can, but it still isn't enough. Examples that you bring of, and indeed most of the extreme examples of that kind, do not produce that response in most readers that know their stuff. It produces a "My god is the Imperium run by incompetent dimwits, I could do a better job at it" kind of response. Imperium should not be stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Anything has the capacity to be turned menacing or in a reverse capacity benevolent. The main issue is i how it is perused/implemented. I mean for example I find Abbadon a bit of a wooden log as a villain. Mainly because his personality and depth of character (or lack of depth) . He's kind of just like an evil battering ram. Only purpose to his existence is to be angry and grid mark evil. Now Kor Phareon, there's a guy I can hate. Because I feel like I understand his twisted mentality. His role as an arbitrager with regards to human belief and the harvesting of loyal souls so he can further his own ends makes me instantly love anything he is attached to in lore. Plus the fact he is a false astartees, and therefor not even a true depiction of something as great as a space marine damming the lives of all he is involved with. And yet like Laurie points out. He rarely swears, has no need to torture or abuse as a pass time. He is "civil" calm, calculated. And that in a bad guy is terrifying. Like arguing with a corrupt lawyer and the condemned is your soul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. I don't think that's really solid ground for the imperium being good, or even decent. Essentially the hope spots in the Imperium are the result of a lack of control or resources, not from any inherent goodness in the heart of it's rulers who have callousness on par if not often exceeding the likes of Hitler or Stalin. Psychopaths are deliberately found and recruited into the highest echelons of the imperiums hierarchy because empathy and compassion are more likely to lead to corruption and damnation in the Imperiums eyes. There can be no empathy, no understanding for the enemy because that makes a chink in their armor and is all Chaos needs to take root. It was played for laughs in Dark Apostle, but we're talking about people who consider bulldozing piles of corpses into factories to produce nutri paste as a solid trade off, millions pointlessly sent to their deaths with a few inches of ground being made is considered a solid 'win' in the imperiums textbook because the whole 'million is a statistic' deal has been taken to it's logical extreme. At best you might wind up on a relatively peaceful but heavily inbred agri world where you may eek out a few happy stress free years before someone like Kryptman decides to dump the life eater virus on your head so the nearest Hive Fleet doesn't turn you into bio fuel. That the imperium cannot make every world an Orwellian horror isn't a good reason for them to be the good, or even the 'alright' guys, it just means they are impotent and that impotency is probably one of the largest reasons they are doomed hilariously enough. If there is a way to prove that the Imperium are the good guys...for the futility of that even being a thing...it's with a 'ends justify the means' argument. Because all these nasty things? They are necessary to mankinds survival, but the consideration of if a place of nothing but misery and pain is worth living in has long since passed from your average inquisitors mind. Worlds are occasionally allowed a measure of autonomy because the Imperium can't get around to driving a jackboot into their throats, not out of any kindness in their heart. See, here's a thing: Entirely a third of moral theorems relies on the "ends justify the means" argument. One of the three major branches of ethics is consequentialism, that relies on that exact principle... though we like to word it with a lot of complex terms and difficult to grasp logical equations, because it makes us seem more smart. I've come to realise over the years (and reading some studies) that majority of people view good in a very deontological way. The deed A is bad. That is all there is too it. But when you go into detailed study of morality, things become a lot less clear. Intuitive understanding of morality is the most practical one, but it also very rarely holds up to scrutiny and basically amounts to "I like A. A is good. I dislike B. B is evil.". I will not bore you with details (though I can expand if you want), but basically, if there is proper justification to an action, then there are ethical theories under which those actions (and people that perpetrate them) can be considered good. It cannot be stated objectively (because objectivity under rules of logic is a lot harder than what people usually mean when they say something is objective), but it can be argued and it can be proven. And, in my personal view, I consider going for the extremes that you mention to be a bad writing, and one that substantially diminishes the main themes of the setting. Humanity in 40k should be doomed because it resorts to extreme measures and does anything it can, but it still isn't enough. Examples that you bring of, and indeed most of the extreme examples of that kind, do not produce that response in most readers that know their stuff. It produces a "My god is the Imperium run by incompetent dimwits, I could do a better job at it" kind of response. Imperium should not be stupid. I can agree with some of that, and really at this point it comes down to personal taste. Most of the time I think yes the imperium should be portrayed as a necessary extreme that's still not doing enough. BUT, and this is a big but, people are really dumb in real life and I don't think it hurts to remind people now and again that people who have trouble remembering how to breathe now and again are big contributors to the Imperium imploding. Much in the same way as Chaos can infight to the point of total inefficiency or Eldar can be too busy smelling their own butts to realize they bumped into an unusually large Tyranid swarm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieJGoulding Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But the Imperium isn't stupid - the High Lords are experts in their own field, and monumentally powerful individuals. And therein lies the issue. They are human. They are selfish. And they SIMPLY DON'T KNOW a lot of what we do. The kind of knowledge in a Codex book is not known to most people. It's an agglomeration of everything, presented to us as hobbyists to help us get excited about our chosen armies. The High Lords know NOTHING about Chaos, other than talking about it will get you killed very quickly... The average governor of an Imperial world has never seen a Space Marine, other than in a glassaic or a book. They most likely never will. The average citizen? Forget it. If you know for a fact that Space Marines exist, then your world is either a recruiting station or you are caught up in a war that will probably see you dead before the end. The government of the Imperium is crippled by bureaucracy, and superstition, and in-fighting, and plain old conservative inertia. The High Lords are not knowingly evil, but the mechanism of their government is a faceless edifice that cannot care about the fates of the people it's supposed to protect and serve. That kind of situation allows corruption and ambition and all kinds of horrible things that lead to atrocities on a daily basis. Why am I having to explain this? It's the basic, constant, unchanging principle of the setting. If you disagree, there's not much more conversation to be had. (If it helps, try replacing the twelve High Lords with modern day leaders and heads of state from across the world... then tell me how the Imperium can function at all. Guess what? Donald Trump just joined the High Lords, except his post is hereditary and his family has held it for 19 generations, and he hates three of the other High Lords. Still feel safe in your lovely little Imperium?) I wasn't entirely joking when I said that 'The Binary Succession' is "Brexit, with Titans". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! #CabalWasRight2016 That said, you guys are really not good at the "Worst fascist dictatorship" thing. Because... it really isn't. Hell, under your rules, it couldn't be if it wanted to. It isn't even really a good dictatorship, because individual governors are stated to have much autonomy in rulling their worlds, as per 7th edition rulebook, as I'm sure you know. Federations are basically anathema to opressive dictatorships. Hillariously, GW written itself into a corner, because for Imperium to be the worst fascist dictatorship, or even on par (Because entities like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil in rather wide variety of ways, while lacking moral justifications that Imperium has), it would have to have level of connectivity and control over their planets that would allow them to kick majority of the threats in the balls and firmly establish complete dominance over the galaxy. Grimdarkness prevents the Imperium from being even remotely close to entities like Nazi Germany. No helped by the fact that many Black Library authors do not write Imperial worlds as that much worse than second or third nation countries. Which, I will say firmly, is not even in top ten of worst dictatorships. Over the years the horribleness of the Imperium became very much an informed attribute. Especially to a utilitarian, like me. I could actually reasonably argue that the Imperium of Mankind is a good entity as far as the real and fictional empires go. Without much trouble even. I don't think that's really solid ground for the imperium being good, or even decent. Essentially the hope spots in the Imperium are the result of a lack of control or resources, not from any inherent goodness in the heart of it's rulers who have callousness on par if not often exceeding the likes of Hitler or Stalin. Psychopaths are deliberately found and recruited into the highest echelons of the imperiums hierarchy because empathy and compassion are more likely to lead to corruption and damnation in the Imperiums eyes. There can be no empathy, no understanding for the enemy because that makes a chink in their armor and is all Chaos needs to take root. It was played for laughs in Dark Apostle, but we're talking about people who consider bulldozing piles of corpses into factories to produce nutri paste as a solid trade off, millions pointlessly sent to their deaths with a few inches of ground being made is considered a solid 'win' in the imperiums textbook because the whole 'million is a statistic' deal has been taken to it's logical extreme. At best you might wind up on a relatively peaceful but heavily inbred agri world where you may eek out a few happy stress free years before someone like Kryptman decides to dump the life eater virus on your head so the nearest Hive Fleet doesn't turn you into bio fuel. That the imperium cannot make every world an Orwellian horror isn't a good reason for them to be the good, or even the 'alright' guys, it just means they are impotent and that impotency is probably one of the largest reasons they are doomed hilariously enough. If there is a way to prove that the Imperium are the good guys...for the futility of that even being a thing...it's with a 'ends justify the means' argument. Because all these nasty things? They are necessary to mankinds survival, but the consideration of if a place of nothing but misery and pain is worth living in has long since passed from your average inquisitors mind. Worlds are occasionally allowed a measure of autonomy because the Imperium can't get around to driving a jackboot into their throats, not out of any kindness in their heart. See, here's a thing: Entirely a third of moral theorems relies on the "ends justify the means" argument. One of the three major branches of ethics is consequentialism, that relies on that exact principle... though we like to word it with a lot of complex terms and difficult to grasp logical equations, because it makes us seem more smart. I've come to realise over the years (and reading some studies) that majority of people view good in a very deontological way. The deed A is bad. That is all there is too it. But when you go into detailed study of morality, things become a lot less clear. Intuitive understanding of morality is the most practical one, but it also very rarely holds up to scrutiny and basically amounts to "I like A. A is good. I dislike B. B is evil.". I will not bore you with details (though I can expand if you want), but basically, if there is proper justification to an action, then there are ethical theories under which those actions (and people that perpetrate them) can be considered good. It cannot be stated objectively (because objectivity under rules of logic is a lot harder than what people usually mean when they say something is objective), but it can be argued and it can be proven. And, in my personal view, I consider going for the extremes that you mention to be a bad writing, and one that substantially diminishes the main themes of the setting. Humanity in 40k should be doomed because it resorts to extreme measures and does anything it can, but it still isn't enough. Examples that you bring of, and indeed most of the extreme examples of that kind, do not produce that response in most readers that know their stuff. It produces a "My god is the Imperium run by incompetent dimwits, I could do a better job at it" kind of response. Imperium should not be stupid. I can agree with some of that, and really at this point it comes down to personal taste. Most of the time I think yes the imperium should be portrayed as a necessary extreme that's still not doing enough. BUT, and this is a big but, people are really dumb in real life and I don't think it hurts to remind people now and again that people who have trouble remembering how to breathe now and again are big contributors to the Imperium imploding. Much in the same way as Chaos can infight to the point of total inefficiency or Eldar can be too busy smelling their own butts to realize they bumped into an unusually large Tyranid swarm. I disagree about Chaos infighting, because that's one of the point of the faction, the ultimate self-destructiveness of it. And the thing is: Really dumb people don't get put into position of power in real life, unless they are elected. No-one is saying that they should be all flawless demigods, but take the "Let us throw millions of men onto enemy position until it crumbles and laugh" strategy, for example. There is literally no period of human warfare where that would be an acceptable strategy. That's something that was considered stupid since antiquity and became more and more stupid as the warfare progressed. It is especially silly in terms of the Imperial Guard, because, by design, every regiment has a well trained, elite and educated outside observers in the form of Commissars, that are empowered to kill incompetent individuals. People like that should be routinely shot, not in positions of commanding armies of millions. And it's a problem for the setting in my opinion, because it veers it into nonsense. Inertia is a powerful thing, but it should not allow the Imperium to survive for ten thousands of years if the people in positions of power are that stupid and incompetent. Because running the empire of this size requires supreme competence just to not have it collapse on itself within a decade, even assuming that incompetency like that is not common place. Dunno. It feels often times like the writers forget, or simply do not comprehend, how much of talent, competency and not being pointlessly evil would be required to run an Imperium like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 No one forgets that. It's assumed. Needing it spelled out for you is in you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Concerning morality, is there a line which is forbidden to cross? [...] I know that warhammer is all about being grim dark and there are no truely good guys out there but does the setting have restrictions? It does indeed. Editorially, there are several rules that would require exceptional circumstances to break: 1) No sexual acts. The POV has to "pan away to the billowing curtains" before we see anything too graphic, as Lindsey Priestley puts it. It's generally left it to the imagination. This also goes for sexualised humour, and you'd be surprised how many aspiring authors can't grasp this... And it's also the reason why 90% of submissions involving the word "Slaanesh" get rejected. Nuance, people. Nuance. 2) Truly evil or sadistic characters will get their comeuppance. It might not be in that specific story, maybe later in a series or whatever, but you'll notice that Warhammer fiction often falls short of showing big named characters (like Abaddon, or Khârn) engaging in reprehensible, unjustified acts... even though they probably do, a lot. This is because it's harder to punish/kill them, as opposed to "a senior lieutenant" who actually does the dirty work. Basically, really horrible stuff has to have a moral repercussion later, with some semblance of justice being done. (Little Horus, I've got my eye on you...) 3) No graphic violence against the defenceless. Civilians and other unwilling participants cannot be shown getting shot, stabbed, mutilated, except as collateral damage. This does tie into the second point above, but generally non-combatants or the truly defenceless can't get ganked on-screen. 4) Children are a difficult area, morally - avoid if possible. It's really hard to justify using a child to make a narrative point and avoid all the other points above, so it's generally easier to find another route. For example, Gav originally had Tuchulcha inhabiting a much younger body, but it created some very uncomfortable implications, especially as he is a servitor - what crime could a 4-year old have committed? Also Graham McNeill's 'Wolf Mother' was originally much more graphic, in the ritual sacrifices. Both of these had to be toned down a little. The Night Lords example cited above is an interesting one, as die-hard fans will notice that the omnibus and special edition trilogy boxed set have a few scenes edited from the original novels. This was actually because BL received THREE official complaints (in writing) about violence against children, from upset readers. We have to take these things seriously, because although BL deals with far more mature themes than regular GW Publications, we're still directly marketing to 12+ age group in our stores. We also got some flak for a line in 'Macragge's Honour' where a Space Marine's line of dialogue was just "B*stard!" This graphic novel was on sale, being pushed by GW store managers to customers of all ages, and this was seen to be a little gratuitous. There is a list of unacceptable curse words which is constantly reviewed and tweaked, and tends to be quite reactive to recent concerns. I actually think it's a little bit over the top, but them's the rules... But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc. The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out! The point is Laurie - that people who complain about 'that violence' shouldn't have done it - because THEY KNOW what they are buying! IT'S W40K - not a rainbow fething unicorns! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 And the thing is: Really dumb people don't get put into position of power in real life, Extremely, extremely debatable, at least with how we're using 'dumb' here in the context of poor decision making. Being book smart has never been the same thing as having common sense or good impulse control, it's led to many a tragedy in human history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328792-morality-in-40k-writing/page/2/#findComment-4595133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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