Morality in 40K Writing

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

*Snorts*

 

Because stories that are destined end poorly for the characters they are about indicate a lack of depth.

 

No it doesn't. And you will have a hard time finding where I argued that it does.

 

 

 

From what I gathered, 40k supposedly has less depth for having a particular version of the IP that's more accurate then other interpretations. At the very least, that's what it comes across as.

 

 

That is not it. 40k lacks depth because, as has been pointed out repeatedly by people that deal with the IP, it abandons variety of themes in favour of dominance of one: That grimdarkness that has been described so eloquently to me so many times as if I was an idiot incapable of reading.

 

I have a problem with that particular interpretation of grimdarkness, because it is single faceted, and thus diminishes the setting to me. Contrary to what people have said of me, I do not want certainty of Imperial victory.

 

What I want is the uncertainty of Chaos victory. I want Chaos to face the exact same grimdarkness as everyone else. There should be a room for more than one theme in 40k.

 

And in all honesty, as I listen to the arguments of the other side, I'm doing a mental list of the books that would probably never see the light of day if those guidelines were strickly enforced.

 

Like Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts, for example.

[Bonestomper]

=][= If you disagree with someone, fine, but there's absolutely no need to be an arse about it.

All of you, cool your jets and cut the crap or this thread is going to get closed down real quick. =][=

Perhaps we should steer this conversation away from morality proper and towards a discussion of the best way to represent (potentially) less-than-moral characters in an emotionally engaging way.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

*Snorts*

 

Because stories that are destined end poorly for the characters they are about indicate a lack of depth.

 

No it doesn't. And you will have a hard time finding where I argued that it does.

 

 

 

From what I gathered, 40k supposedly has less depth for having a particular version of the IP that's more accurate then other interpretations. At the very least, that's what it comes across as.

 

 

That is not it. 40k lacks depth because, as has been pointed out repeatedly by people that deal with the IP, it abandons variety of themes in favour of dominance of one: That grimdarkness that has been described so eloquently to me so many times as if I was an idiot incapable of reading.

 

I have a problem with that particular interpretation of grimdarkness, because it is single faceted, and thus diminishes the setting to me. Contrary to what people have said of me, I do not want certainty of Imperial victory.

 

What I want is the uncertainty of Chaos victory. I want Chaos to face the exact same grimdarkness as everyone else. There should be a room for more than one theme in 40k.

 

And in all honesty, as I listen to the arguments of the other side, I'm doing a mental list of the books that would probably never see the light of day if those guidelines were strickly enforced.

 

Like Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts, for example.

 

 

What exactly in gaunts ghosts contradicts that though? is it that the characters fight back Chaos? Because Chaos is still beatable on a micro scale, is it that the characters think there's hope? Because a lot of characters would think there's hope even when there's not. Does it introduce a way for the Emperor to come back and crush Chaos utterly? because I haven't read it personally.

 

Having a dominant prevailing theme does not seem like an abandonment of other themes, just an exploration and deconstruction of them. Remember that Protomen thing I mentioned earlier half jokingly? That setting has zero hope in it, the protagonists are doomed to fail because it's a tragedy. But it still explores the themes of distant hope, holding out for a hero, and rebellion against an impossibly large fascist empire.

 

It just looks at those themes with a less positive outcome then other works of it's kind.

[Arkangilos]

Entropy is part of nature. If you looked into Nurgle's thing, he sees life in death. He wants to kill the universe to give it a new life (Black Crusade: Tome of Decay).

 

Nature isn't just physical and material things, it is the flow of things. Emotions are natural and they are what fuels the warp.

[mc warhammer]

Entropy is part of nature. If you looked into Nurgle's thing, he sees life in death. He wants to kill the universe to give it a new life (Black Crusade: Tome of Decay).

 

Nature isn't just physical and material things, it is the flow of things. Emotions are natural and they are what fuels the warp.

pretty sure nature is just activated almonds

[Jareddm]

 

Entropy is part of nature. If you looked into Nurgle's thing, he sees life in death. He wants to kill the universe to give it a new life (Black Crusade: Tome of Decay).

 

Nature isn't just physical and material things, it is the flow of things. Emotions are natural and they are what fuels the warp.

pretty sure nature is just activated almonds

 

I really hope that's an autocorrect.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Honestly morality in 40k; Much like real life...is fluid.

 

Its really a toss up based on writer, character, instance as to what morality means. Chaos lack what most view as morality out of "necessity" considering its either that; or extinction. (they live in literal Hell; its about what you expect)

 

But morality in 40k is dependent entirely on chapter involved; Salamanders try to limit civilian losses, protect the innocent.  As do space wolves to a lesser extent, but other chapters? Dark Angels? if you find out the wrong thing? buh-bye.

 

Xenos are often shown as being alien even in moral choice, Eldar and Tau being manipulative at best, and murderous at worst. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Dumb people get put into good positions by smart people to be used as scape goats.

 

Happens every day.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Could we have just ONE thread in the Black Library section where MrDarth151 doesn't slam BL, and eventually get the topic closed...?

 

If people have specific instances of the depiction of morality in BL that they'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to discuss them.

 

Also, fascism =/= dictatorship. You can have one without the other.

[Xisor]

If people have specific instances of the depiction of morality in BL that they'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to discuss them.

Have you read Guy's Skarsnik? It's a great, brilliant book in my esteem. But the first chapter or two of it turned my stomach in such a visceral (and I'm pretty certain intentional) way, that it was the closest I'd come to just setting a BL book aside in 'moral' disgust.

 

(As in distinct from my disgust that an author might not be writing books primarily for Xisor's personal enjoyment alone. Too many books get set aside when I catch a whiff of that...)

 

Not a sort of prudish or intolerant disgust, but an "actually, I'd rather not read that" sort. I don't know quite what I mean by it, but it was such a stark shock for a big fan of BL that I finally think I *got* what other people mean when they talk of moral outrage at a depiction. I'm not convinced it's just a matter of people having different lines and thresholds, but something a bit more... philosophical, almost.

 

I'd heard it described as a "yuk factor". Sometimes an idea or thing just puts you strongly on the defensive. Not for great, articulate reasons - but what amounts to an almost literal gut reaction.

 

---

 

It was interesting to see it in Skarsnik, but I'm very glad I don't find that in every book. Not that it should be glossed over or hidden away, but it can't be so stark as I'd just stop reading. (And obviously almost everyone else on the planet has similar, although distinct reactions.)

 

To that end, I love to see things explored, but I could happily do without the... gore.

[MrDarth151]

Could we have just ONE thread in the Black Library section where MrDarth151 doesn't slam BL, and eventually get the topic closed...?

 

If people have specific instances of the depiction of morality in BL that they'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to discuss them.

 

Also, fascism =/= dictatorship. You can have one without the other.

 

Yes. Let us pretend that people derailing threads into page long rants about how I know nothing of the universe are blameless. That includes you.

 

I haven't done it alone, you know?

 

I don't dislike the Black Library output. I dislike the vehemence withi which you insist that I must be wrong.

 

And also, yes, the discussion on this front actually has to do with depiction of morality in BL. You've just absolved Imperium of any moral responsibility for its action, I think that is pretty significant when it comes to the discussion of moral themes in BL.

[Scribe]

Lol, when confronted by views and opinions (are they even opinions when backed with such official weight) from the most applicable experts...to continue to deny those views that takes something.

 

Very interesting thread regardless, the news about the NL series and the reprinted edits I was unaware of.

[LJF]

I don't really need graphic sex scenes or F-bombs in my 40k novels because it's just not that kind of universe, BUT I could definitelly use a bit more grimdark in them. The action and torture could often be more graphic and visceral as violence can actually be quite beautiful if described properly. Many books feel almost indistinguishable from each other because of how everything is toned down to the same level. More morally ambiguous and mature characters on both Imperial and Chaos sides also would't hurt as they have the same problems. Often they are one dimensional or just straight up cartoony.

[MrDarth151]

Lol, when confronted by views and opinions (are they even opinions when backed with such official weight) from the most applicable experts...to continue to deny those views that takes something.

 

It's more of an amusement at this point. GW and BL have set out to make the most tyrannical and cruel regime they could imagine and yet the end result is an authoritarian wet dream. An Empire that is so morally justified it borders absurd. It really is quite amazing.

[Biscuittzz]

Concerning morality, is there a line which is forbidden to cross?

[...]

I know that warhammer is all about being grim dark and there are no truely good guys out there but does the setting have restrictions?

We also got some flak for a line in 'Macragge's Honour' where a Space Marine's line of dialogue was just "B*stard!" This graphic novel was on sale, being pushed by GW store managers to customers of all ages, and this was seen to be a little gratuitous. There is a list of unacceptable curse words which is constantly reviewed and tweaked, and tends to be quite reactive to recent concerns. I actually think it's a little bit over the top, but them's the rules...

To be honest, if someone makes a complaint about a curse word like that, it says more about them than the material.

I understand that this is being sold to a younger audience but they are buying a book about war, fighting, deaths....etc, but a curse word startles them?!

It reminds me of the Conor McGregor vs Diaz fight where they beat the crap out of each other for 25 minutes but then beeped out the cursing in the interviews. "We apologise for any use of language that may have offended you. However, we hope you enjoyed the spectacle of two men beating each other to near-death for 25 minutes".

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Lol, when confronted by views and opinions (are they even opinions when backed with such official weight) from the most applicable experts...to continue to deny those views that takes something.

It's more of an amusement at this point. GW and BL have set out to make the most tyrannical and cruel regime they could imagine and yet the end result is an authoritarian wet dream. An Empire that is so morally justified it borders absurd. It really is quite amazing.

Being morally justified doesn't change how terrible it is.

 

Do you think the average citizen, completely unaware of why they are being rounded up and murdered care what the justifications are? Or do you think they care more about their own families?

 

Them turning to chaos is just as justified as the Imperium murdering their kin because a daemon was spotted fifty miles away.

[MrDarth151]

 

 

Lol, when confronted by views and opinions (are they even opinions when backed with such official weight) from the most applicable experts...to continue to deny those views that takes something.

It's more of an amusement at this point. GW and BL have set out to make the most tyrannical and cruel regime they could imagine and yet the end result is an authoritarian wet dream. An Empire that is so morally justified it borders absurd. It really is quite amazing.

Being morally justified doesn't change how terrible it is.

 

Do you think the average citizen, completely unaware of why they are being rounded up and murdered care what the justifications are? Or do you think they care more about their own families?

 

Them turning to chaos is just as justified as the Imperium murdering their kin because a daemon was spotted fifty miles away.

 

 

I think that your average citizen is happy that traitors to the Imperium are killed and they can sleep soundly, because propaganda is a wonderful thing.

 

Terrible? The Imperium is not terrible. 40k is not terrible. Acts have to have weight if they have meaning, and as we have already firmly established, Imperium is doomed. It cannot be undoomed. There is not fixing it, there is no saving its people. The worst has already happened. The neverborn will feasts upon the souls of every living being in creation, and what are some earthly tortures in comparison to the eternity of hell?

 

There is nothing terrible about it. Responsibility is dependent on capability, and the Imperium has none. It cannot act in a different way. The powers that be won't allow it.

 

40k diminishes terribleness of your example quite well. What does it matter that the citizens were being rounded up and murdered? Is their otherwise better? Nope. Is there any hope they could have had for improving their fates? Nope. Frankly, killing them is a kindness in this universe.

 

Well, not really, because they are going to get horribly tortured to insanity for all eternity, but everyone is regardless of their deeds, so what does it matter?

 

I our world, such acts have meaning. In 40k? Pft HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

It might have been terrible if 40k had some degree of realism to it. But it doesn't, because it got ritualisticly sacrificed to the Chaos Gods. Do you really think an act of execution matters in a world where seeing a daemon could reasonably lead to you eating your daughters entrails because you got corrupted? Do you think an act of execution might be viewed as terrible when that is the alternative? 

 

There really is nothing more to it. Excessive Grimdarkness reduces moral complexity to being about as relevant as the Emperor is to stopping Chaos Gods: that is to say, completely not.

[Arkangilos]

Man this really shows that you have no grasp on 40k.

 

And if you really think an imperial citizen doesn't care that the authorities slaughtered his family because his distant cousin broke a law, or a daemon was seen 30 miles away then you have no grasp on people. And you clearly missed the fact that millions of citizens turn to cults to get away from it. People don't turn to chaos for the lulz.

 

And it isn't hopeless TO THEM. They don't know what is happening. Nobody in the 40k universe knows the scope of it. We do because we are outside readers. It's the actual definition of dramatic irony, where we, the audience, knows the full scope but the characters do not.

 

And they have said, COUNTLESS TIMES, that a Chaos win does not mean humanity is doomed. The Death of the Imperium =/= the death of man.

[MrDarth151]

Man this really shows that you have no grasp on 40k.

And if you really think an imperial citizen doesn't care that the authorities slaughtered his family because his distant cousin broke a law, or a daemon was seen 30 miles away then you have no grasp on people.

I don't. I think that it neither matters nor does it show anything terrible withing context of 40k.

And you clearly missed the fact that millions of citizens turn to cults to get away from it.

And you clearly missed the fact that decision to join Chaos does not need to be motivated by anything rational.

People don't turn to chaos for the lulz.

Yes they do. All of the bloody time.

And it isn't hopeless TO THEM. They don't know what is happening. Nobody in the 40k universe knows the scope of it. We do because we are outside readers. It's the actual definition of dramatic irony, where we, the audience, knows the full scope but the characters do not.

I fail to see how is that relevant.

And they have said, COUNTLESS TIMES, that a Chaos win does not mean humanity is doomed. The Death of the Imperium =/= the death of man.

Both Laurie Goulding and Aaron Dembski-Bowden believe otherwise, seeing as they constantly refer to humanity being doomed by Chaos, not the Imperium.

And haven't I already linked the post of the former that says entire material universe will end at the hands of the warp entities?

[mc warhammer]

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?
 

 

And it isn't hopeless TO THEM. They don't know what is happening. Nobody in the 40k universe knows the scope of it. We do because we are outside readers. It's the actual definition of dramatic irony, where we, the audience, knows the full scope but the characters do not.

I fail to see how is that relevant.

 

i think that might be where a lot of the conflict you seem to encounter on this board is coming from. from what i can see, you're using a fairly rigid system (perhaps taken from your studies in ethics or morality or philosophy, i'm unsure) from which to view the setting and critique it. i'm sure that system was employed during those wars you waged on behalf of GW's honour.

you don't seem to have quite as much respect, or desire to see things from an artistic or creative viewpoint. when people bring up heroic tropes, dramatic irony and creative devices the response is often "i don't see the relevance".

out of interest, what are some fictional worlds/universes that you feel have this narrative ambiguity and moral complexity that 40k lacks?

[Marshal Rohr]

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?

The Imperium is just a government like all governments before it. It's is only capable of doing what it can, and it can only do what it is capable of. We exist in a very unusual time in human history, where our views on government are not normal and certainly are not going to endure forever.

[Arkangilos]

Here is the quote you provided, MrDarth

 

"Just because, thematically and philosophically, Chaos will win does NOT mean that we know the nature or time of that victory. I've always seen it as a mythologised version of universal entropy - the inescapable and unavoidable heat-death of the universe. Order slides to chaos (small c) and tightly focused pockets of energy and matter become diffuse and spread across apparently infinite distances."

 

You know that that is real science right? Real scientists say that eventually the universe will end. It will fall apart, all stars will die, the universe will stop creating, and atoms will fall apart.

 

The reason why it's made relevant here is that that's the goal of chaos in this universe. To do just that. Again, just because the Imperium loses does not mean that is what will happen. In the case of the gods of Chaos, right now they just want things to remain chaotic. They want things to remain in motion. You should seriously research what the chaos gods all want *individually*. But you should also take note that Chaos does not mean each Chaos God. They are not the sum of chaos, they are but parts of it. There are daemons and entities that do not belong to that pantheon.

 

You do know that Chaos existed before the Imperium, right? You do know that empires and entire civilizations endured for thousands of years and even *thrived* while worshipping the gods, right? Colchis, the "Imperium" that Loken himself saw the end of in Horus Rising.

 

There are civilizations within the Eye of Terror, even. Some are barbaric, and some aren't. Some are "evil" and some aren't.

 

Even the fluff experts keep telling you this, but you keep ignoring it because it doesn't fit your narrative. You are even twisting their words. It is clear, from the post you used to support your claim, that the end of the material universe is not necessarily on the horizon.

 

Do you know what "chaos, little c" means? It means he was NOT talking about Chaos as the pantheon.

 

Do you know what "does not mean we know the nature of the victory" means? It means we don't know what it means for humanity.

[mc warhammer]

 

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?

The Imperium is just a government like all governments before it. It's is only capable of doing what it can, and it can only do what it is capable of. We exist in a very unusual time in human history, where our views on government are not normal and certainly are not going to endure forever.

 

 

yeah, i understand that, but as mr darth says, alot of what we see as cruelty and callousness in 40k is ultimately justified by "the greater good". or the imperium is the "lesser of two evils", the greater evil being chaos and/or extinction by xenos.

 

the imperium rests a lot of its actions on the idea that those actions are necessary to survival and there are no other options. i'm asking if the books ever explored other options? options that don't interest the imperium.

 

if the astartes wipe out a world's entire population because they must stop a tyrannid hive fleet or chaos infection and there is no alternative, then there is some justification to be found. it's still awful in the same way that say, the killing of a dangerous child is in "the walking dead" but the audience can find some sort of solace in the idea that the awful choice was still the best choice.

 

if the astartes choose to wipe out a world's entire population to stop tyrannids or chaos but there are other solutions, then that becomes something else.

 

i'm genuinely asking an unloaded question here; i have probably read way less BL fiction than most of the board.

[mc warhammer]

 

You do know that Chaos existed before the Imperium, right? You do know that empires and entire civilizations endured for thousands of years and even *thrived* while worshipping the gods, right? Colchis, the "Imperium" that Loken himself saw the end of in Horus Rising.

 

 

the imperium endured for 10, 000 years. not a bad innings for any empire, especially one spanning the galaxy.

 

the fall of the roman empire is an interesting tale. so are the end days of the egyptian empire, the qing dynasty or the mayans. i don't know why a story set during the decline of the freaking imperium of humankind is any less worthwhile.

[Marshal Rohr]

What I am saying is more like we see the Imperium wipe out a planet because of a daemon invasion, and say 'oh, how awful! No due process, no respect for human rights! By their own government no less!'. What that interpretation is missing is that those killings are not moral or legal to us but are both moral and legal in the Imperium. The same way we look at prima nocta and say 'ew, gross and rapey', it was legal when it was around. The Imperium doesn't rule by force alone. It is a legitimate government so the people themselves view it as legitimate.