Morality in 40K Writing

[mc warhammer]

What I am saying is more like we see the Imperium wipe out a planet because of a daemon invasion, and say 'oh, how awful! No due process, no respect for human rights! By their own government no less!'. What that interpretation is missing is that those killings are not moral or legal to us but are both moral and legal in the Imperium. The same way we look at prima nocta and say 'ew, gross and rapey', it was legal when it was around. The Imperium doesn't rule by force alone. It is a legitimate government so the people themselves view it as legitimate.

 

absolutely, i understand what you're saying. my question is more about that audience pov you mention.

 

edit: with the prima nocta example you mention: we as an "audience" can view that action as "gross" because we know it was unnecessary. there is no convincing motivation for it beyond human greed and power (despite the devine justifications most likely used at the time).

[Arkangilos]

There have been a few. For example, Gaunt considered the commissars to be carrying whips as backwards and less efficient. He's had dialogue with his other commissar about varying techniques to maintain order.

[MrDarth151]

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?

 

The books don't adhere to the vision this board presents at all, which is why I get snippy when people tell me I don't know anything about 40k.

 

Because they come with things like "The only victories are only won by sacrificing millions of lives" and I'm like "Considering the 7th edition sourcebook says that daily recruitment into Imperial Guard goes into billions, that's actually really competent of them". Not to mention that Abnett has written an entire series of books dedicated to showing that modern tactics have a place in the Guard, and are popular enough that Gaunt can call Aexe Cardinal trench war out as being an example of local forces not having the tactical and strategical acumen of the Guard, much less Napoleonic tactics that some people have claimed they use.

 

I actually find it hillarious, because the books don't portray reality that is as horrible as our local GW sources seem to claim is the entire point of the setting.

 

And really, our world is casually cruel all of the time. Because you know what? We have morality, organisations dedicated to helping people in need, no immediate threats, relative world peace, and 3 in every hundred of children born every year die of malnutrition while we produce enough food to feed the entire world twice over.

 

Every minute, somewhere in this world, seven children starve to death, while we throw away millions of tons of food.

 

Do you really think that the fact that Imperium executes people that might form dangerous Chaos cults can struck somebody as terrible? GW needs more writers from third world countries.

 

 

out of interest, what are some fictional worlds/universes that you feel have this narrative ambiguity and moral complexity that 40k lacks?

 

See, here's a thing: I don't think that 40k lacks narrative ambiguity and moral complexity. I think there is surprising amount of depth to be found in 40k and that the setting from the point of literary analisis of philosophical and moral themes, something I have literally done hundreds of hours of, though I usually deal with classical literature, like Dostoyevsky's works.

 

I don't have a problem with 40k. I love 40k. I have a problem, because I argue that the setting has real depth and complexity to it on basically daily basis (though usually not on this particular board), and I've just had a well established company author and one of the major editors inform me that I am wrong to do so.

 

So basically day, after day, after day, of repetition of what, to my ears, sounds basically like "What, we never printed 40k as you perceive it, our books are actually quite, quite bad!".

 

And I'm here, being really, really disappointed.

[mc warhammer]

 

Because they come with things like "The only victories are only won by sacrificing millions of lives" and I'm like "Considering the 7th edition sourcebook says that daily recruitment into Imperial Guard goes into billions, that's actually really competent of them". Not to mention that Abnett has written an entire series of books dedicated to showing that modern tactics have a place in the Guard, and are popular enough that Gaunt can call Aexe Cardinal trench war out as being an example of local forces not having the tactical and strategical acumen of the Guard, much less Napoleonic tactics that some people have claimed they use.

 

 

cool, i don't read rule books so i can't comment on that specifically. i will say that everything i have read so far from BL has been consistent in the vision supplied by both laurie and aaron.

 

 

And really, our world is casually cruel all of the time. Because you know what? We have morality, organisations dedicated to helping people in need, no immediate threats, relative world peace, and 3 in every hundred of children born every year die of malnutrition while we produce enough food to feed the entire world twice over.

 

Every minute, somewhere in this world, seven children starve to death, while we throw away millions of tons of food.

 

 

as i understand it, that was somewhat the inspiration for 40k in the first place- a parody of those things you describe, taken to extremes.

 

 

And I'm here, being really, really disappointed.

 

 

as you keep saying. so, what are some examples of fictional universes doing it better (or as well as 40k was in your opinion, before you peeked behind the curtain).

[Bonestomper]

Is it possible that more recent GW writers have taken the setting's authoritarianism more seriously, taking fewer and fewer satirical jabs at it over time (compared to Chambers and Priesty, et al.)? And that this has resulted in the kinds of contradictions (between professed satire and actual justification) that Darth is talking about? If so, that would be an interesting case of death/reincarnation of the collective author...

[Arkangilos]

 

 

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?

The books don't adhere to the vision this board presents at all, which is why I get snippy when people tell me I don't know anything about 40k.

 

Because they come with things like "The only victories are only won by sacrificing millions of lives" and I'm like "Considering the 7th edition sourcebook says that daily recruitment into Imperial Guard goes into billions, that's actually really competent of them". Not to mention that Abnett has written an entire series of books dedicated to showing that modern tactics have a place in the Guard, and are popular enough that Gaunt can call Aexe Cardinal trench war out as being an example of local forces not having the tactical and strategical acumen of the Guard, much less Napoleonic tactics that some people have claimed they use.

 

I actually find it hillarious, because the books don't portray reality that is as horrible as our local GW sources seem to claim is the entire point of the setting.

 

And really, our world is casually cruel all of the time. Because you know what? We have morality, organisations dedicated to helping people in need, no immediate threats, relative world peace, and 3 in every hundred of children born every year die of malnutrition while we produce enough food to feed the entire world twice over.

 

Every minute, somewhere in this world, seven children starve to death, while we throw away millions of tons of food.

 

Do you really think that the fact that Imperium executes people that might form dangerous Chaos cults can struck somebody as terrible? GW needs more writers from third world countries.

out of interest, what are some fictional worlds/universes that you feel have this narrative ambiguity and moral complexity that 40k lacks?

See, here's a thing: I don't think that 40k lacks narrative ambiguity and moral complexity. I think there is surprising amount of depth to be found in 40k and that the setting from the point of literary analisis of philosophical and moral themes, something I have literally done hundreds of hours of, though I usually deal with classical literature, like Dostoyevsky's works.

 

I don't have a problem with 40k. I love 40k. I have a problem, because I argue that the setting has real depth and complexity to it on basically daily basis (though usually not on this particular board), and I've just had a well established company author and one of the major editors inform me that I am wrong to do so.

 

So basically day, after day, after day, of repetition of what, to my ears, sounds basically like "What, we never printed 40k as you perceive it, our books are actually quite, quite bad!".

 

And I'm here, being really, really disappointed.

No offense, but your comments on the real world and the 40k world are still completely false. It still shows you have no real grasp in either besides what you have seemingly been told in class. Since you don't have a grasp on the real world, can you stick to 40k morality?

[Tyriks]

 

mr darth makes an interesting point- is there a viable alternative to the imperial machine that would allow humanity to survive? i'm sure we can all come up with alternatives to the cold and inhuman way it treats its citizens, but have the books ever presented a "better way" in 40k to contrast the "necessary evil" of the imperium?

 

 

The books don't adhere to the vision this board presents at all, which is why I get snippy when people tell me I don't know anything about 40k.

 

Because they come with things like "The only victories are only won by sacrificing millions of lives" and I'm like "Considering the 7th edition sourcebook says that daily recruitment into Imperial Guard goes into billions, that's actually really competent of them". Not to mention that Abnett has written an entire series of books dedicated to showing that modern tactics have a place in the Guard, and are popular enough that Gaunt can call Aexe Cardinal trench war out as being an example of local forces not having the tactical and strategical acumen of the Guard, much less Napoleonic tactics that some people have claimed they use.

 

I actually find it hillarious, because the books don't portray reality that is as horrible as our local GW sources seem to claim is the entire point of the setting.

 

And really, our world is casually cruel all of the time. Because you know what? We have morality, organisations dedicated to helping people in need, no immediate threats, relative world peace, and 3 in every hundred of children born every year die of malnutrition while we produce enough food to feed the entire world twice over.

 

Every minute, somewhere in this world, seven children starve to death, while we throw away millions of tons of food.

 

Do you really think that the fact that Imperium executes people that might form dangerous Chaos cults can struck somebody as terrible? GW needs more writers from third world countries.

 

 

out of interest, what are some fictional worlds/universes that you feel have this narrative ambiguity and moral complexity that 40k lacks?

 

 

See, here's a thing: I don't think that 40k lacks narrative ambiguity and moral complexity. I think there is surprising amount of depth to be found in 40k and that the setting from the point of literary analisis of philosophical and moral themes, something I have literally done hundreds of hours of, though I usually deal with classical literature, like Dostoyevsky's works.

 

I don't have a problem with 40k. I love 40k. I have a problem, because I argue that the setting has real depth and complexity to it on basically daily basis (though usually not on this particular board), and I've just had a well established company author and one of the major editors inform me that I am wrong to do so.

 

So basically day, after day, after day, of repetition of what, to my ears, sounds basically like "What, we never printed 40k as you perceive it, our books are actually quite, quite bad!".

 

And I'm here, being really, really disappointed.

Ugh. Please stop saying it lacks depth just because you don't like the outcome. Having the end result known in no way diminishes the things happening beforehand. That's entirely in your head, and a huge part of the issue here. You keep insisting that if it's not the way you want to envision it that it lacks depth, and that just isn't true. Maybe it's not to your taste, and that's fine, and expressing that is fine, but depth of the stories told in the setting are not dependent on an ambiguous resolution.

[MrDarth151]

 

cool, i don't read rule books so i can't comment on that specifically. i will say that everything i have read so far from BL has been consistent in the vision supplied by both laurie and aaron.

 

I do. But I suppose that stems from my tendency for over-analisis.

 

 

as i understand it, that was somewhat the inspiration for 40k in the first place- a parody of those things you describe, taken to extremes.

 

I am fairly sure that such materials would not get past the editors, if what Laurie describes is in any way accurate.

 

Keep in mind that what I described is not an actual crime or something considered morally abhorent, it is just a statistic everyone ignore. If I had put unit 731 into a 40k, no changes from history done, just a complete transplantation of it without any alterations, I can guarantee you that it would be vetoed.

 

 

as you keep saying. so, what are some examples of fictional universes doing it better (or as well as 40k was in your opinion, before you peeked behind the curtain).

 

Hard to say, as most universes are quite bad in that regard. The Witcher verse is pretty good at it, though.

[Arkangilos]

They have units of 731 in 40k, man.

[Scribe]

A quick Wiki, shows that that would have no problem being alluded to in 40K. Mutants and Heretics man, round 'em up in the name of the Omnissiah.

[Volt]

 

Concerning morality, is there a line which is forbidden to cross?

 

[...]

 

I know that warhammer is all about being grim dark and there are no truely good guys out there but does the setting have restrictions?

 

It does indeed.

 

Editorially, there are several rules that would require exceptional circumstances to break:

 

1) No sexual acts. The POV has to "pan away to the billowing curtains" before we see anything too graphic, as Lindsey Priestley puts it. It's generally left it to the imagination. This also goes for sexualised humour, and you'd be surprised how many aspiring authors can't grasp this... And it's also the reason why 90% of submissions involving the word "Slaanesh" get rejected. Nuance, people. Nuance.

 

2) Truly evil or sadistic characters will get their comeuppance. It might not be in that specific story, maybe later in a series or whatever, but you'll notice that Warhammer fiction often falls short of showing big named characters (like Abaddon, or Khârn) engaging in reprehensible, unjustified acts... even though they probably do, a lot. This is because it's harder to punish/kill them, as opposed to "a senior lieutenant" who actually does the dirty work. Basically, really horrible stuff has to have a moral repercussion later, with some semblance of justice being done. (Little Horus, I've got my eye on you...)

 

3) No graphic violence against the defenceless. Civilians and other unwilling participants cannot be shown getting shot, stabbed, mutilated, except as collateral damage. This does tie into the second point above, but generally non-combatants or the truly defenceless can't get ganked on-screen.

 

4) Children are a difficult area, morally - avoid if possible. It's really hard to justify using a child to make a narrative point and avoid all the other points above, so it's generally easier to find another route. For example, Gav originally had Tuchulcha inhabiting a much younger body, but it created some very uncomfortable implications, especially as he is a servitor - what crime could a 4-year old have committed? Also Graham McNeill's 'Wolf Mother' was originally much more graphic, in the ritual sacrifices. Both of these had to be toned down a little.

 

The Night Lords example cited above is an interesting one, as die-hard fans will notice that the omnibus and special edition trilogy boxed set have a few scenes edited from the original novels. This was actually because BL received THREE official complaints (in writing) about violence against children, from upset readers. We have to take these things seriously, because although BL deals with far more mature themes than regular GW Publications, we're still directly marketing to 12+ age group in our stores.

 

We also got some flak for a line in 'Macragge's Honour' where a Space Marine's line of dialogue was just "B*stard!" This graphic novel was on sale, being pushed by GW store managers to customers of all ages, and this was seen to be a little gratuitous. There is a list of unacceptable curse words which is constantly reviewed and tweaked, and tends to be quite reactive to recent concerns. I actually think it's a little bit over the top, but them's the rules...

 

But that's another thing about the setting, which often gets confused or overlooked - the Imperium is a HORRIBLE place. It's the worst fascist dictatorship, and it talks about ethnic cleansing and planetary genocide like its all perfectly fine. You have indentured slavery, exploitation of every level of society, rampant drug use and abuses of authority, power, position etc.

 

The Imperium is, and always has been, a chilling dystopia. Humanity thinks the xenos and the daemons are the evil ones, but they're really not... Mankind probably deserves to die out!

 

This ultimately is the great failing of the Black Library. No writer should bow their head to censorship because of 'sensibilities'. Sex, violence against children, and villains receiving no justice is a common fact of life that should be represented. IMO, nothing in 40k is really horrifying to read about, because absolutely nothing in the end comes off as truly horrifying. I can crack up a history book meanwhile and read about acts that make even Chaos Cultists appear to be fluffy bunny rabbits. It's a shame that nothing truly ghastly, disgusting, and insulting happens in black library books. It prevents them from portraying the horrible nature of the universe. Thus the "modern" 40k actually comes off as a not that bad place to live. The constant windows we have into Imperial life don't paint it that bad unless you're a really unlucky bastard. Otherwise you seem to be living no different from a worker in Soviet Russia or the middle class in the Ming Empire. Nothing to write home about, but not even close to "bloodiest and cruelest imaginable". Which is a line I can't help but scoff at because of how short the Imperium always falls of that.

 

 

They have units of 731 in 40k, man.

That's the thing, they don't, at least not from the Imperium. The "bloodiest and cruelest" is nothing but complete bollocks with no evidence to support itself. Not only are the "bad" actions of the Imperium wholly justified because the ends are justified (exterminatus, rounding up mutants, etc is all justified as necessary for the preservation of the species and saving of more human lives, as mutants are often related to chaos). All the "bad" actions of the Imperium are taken either against those already damned and saving the lives of other by stopping the taint from spreading (exterminatus), killing agents of chaos (mutants like beastmen), and even the servitors used to sustain the Imperium's infrastructure. Without it all, the Imperium implodes and humanity dies. It all meets the requirements for utilitarianism. It's not pretty, but bloody wars of survival are never pretty, just ask the Soviets in the start of the Eastern Front.

 

But that's also my problem too though, is because no book casts the Imperium as a truly bloody and horrible regime, because many worlds are presented as being just fine. What makes them terrible is war visiting them. Otherwise you're just living like a soviet citizen, which while not pleasant, is not that bad either. I have never read a single book that featured something like Nanking, with Imperial Guards perpetrating similar crimes against humanity. Hell, there's nothing like Unit 731 in the Imperium, unless you mean against xenos, but those aren't humans.

[Arkangilos]

^ But the problem with that is that novels are presented from a more in universe perspective. What happens to them is "normal" and so we never see it in a shocking way. But let's look at what the books portray:

 

Imperial Guard: You get shot if you run. You get shot if you talk back. You have no chance of ever going home. You get whipped by many commissars to force you forward. Daemons means death.

 

Imperial Citizen: not protected by the legal system. Breaking certain laws can mean death for several generations and branches of your whole family. Meeting a fallen means death for you by dark angels. Abductions into the navy through mass press ganging. Being a good citizen means you or your daughter will have your throat slit to make a single bolter round "holy". Death of you and your family, and likely entire planet, for threats you might not have even seen. A cult in the under city can mean legal death for you, and you've never even met them.

 

Everything I've just listed has been presented in books.

 

What makes it less meaningful to us is that we personally have no stake. It isn't our families, and we can never picture it because it's so far in the future. Modern dystopian fiction gets to us because we can literally see ourselves living through it. History books get to us because our families have lived through it. We can feel those effects, and we have/had stake in what could/has happened.

 

I have read plenty of books that PROVE the claim of how ruthless and terrible the Imperium seems.

[Volt]

But the problem with that is that novels are presented from a more in universe perspective. What happens to them is "normal" and so we never see it in a shocking way. But let's look at what the books portray:

It's not in universe if they contain material that literally cannot be known in 40k by anybody and would not be written down in that format, and is told from the perspective of an omnipresent narrator. The amount of in universe material is scant.

 

 

Imperial Guard: You get shot if you run.

Practically everybody used to do this in the real world, and some still do.

 

 

 

You get shot if you talk back.

No they don't. The Primer is not actually followed, and the Guard seems to laugh at it. It's actually more likely for the Commissar to get popped than the guardsmen. A Commissar who acts like an arsehole and kills indiscriminately will soon find himself shot by an ork sniper.

 

 

 

You have no chance of ever going home.

And you will be made part of the ruling class of a planet you conquer at the end of a campaign.

 

 

 

You get whipped by many commissars to force you forward.

More real world stuff.

 

 

 

Daemons means death.

Well duh, Daemons kill everything and not even Space Marines do well against them.

 

 

Imperial Citizen: not protected by the legal system.

Y'know except for those planetary laws that make murder and such illegal, which is often how servitors are made by lobotomizing prisoners.

 

 

 

Breaking certain laws can mean death for several generations and branches of your whole family.

Which is typically the heresy laws, and done because it's an existential threat to everybody. Cthulhu is actively trying to eat you and everybody else. Tolerance is not possible.

 

 

 

Meeting a fallen means death for you by dark angels.

There are only around 100,000 or so odd dark angels. Statistically speaking the average Imperial is more likely to die from a coconut landing on their head or getting run over by a Grox. I might as well bring up how you could die to terrorism, or sharks, in the real world. Even though those are basically non-factors.

 

 

 

Abductions into the navy through mass press ganging.

A lot of human history says hello again.

 

 

 

Being a good citizen means you or your daughter will have your throat slit to make a single bolter round "holy".

Retconned, not in the new Grey Knight Codex.

 

 

 

Death of you and your family, and likely entire planet, for threats you might not have even seen.

A very strange event in the Armageddon Campaign that raised lots of eyebrows from a notably over-zealous inquisitor. Also part of the "cthulhu is trying to kill the entire species". And too, you are unlikely to ever be part of a daemonic invasion. There are quadrillions/quintillions of humans on millions or even billions of worlds depending on the quote preferred.

 

 

 

A cult in the under city can mean legal death for you, and you've never even met them.

Because the cult is an existential threat to the existence of the species and will eventually result in infinite amount of daemons pouring over, and not part of the Imperium itself.

 

 

Everything I've just listed has been presented in books.

Old books, some of which not even still circulated, other grossly misrepresented, where I might as well claim that terrorism is consuming this planet even though it only effects a very small amount of people.

 

 

What makes it less meaningful to us is that we personally have no stake. It isn't our families, and we can never picture it because it's so far in the future. Modern dystopian fiction gets to us because we can literally see ourselves living through it. History books get to us because our families have lived through it. We can feel those effects, and we have/had stake in what could/has happened.

History gets to us because unlike science fantasy authors dedicated to turning a profit for a parent company, are thereby not allowed to write about stuff that I could go on, and on, and on about for a very long about time, but can never be mentioned on this forum (or indeed, many). I also am not Chinese, have zero Chinese relation, and little ability to put myself in their shoes, but the Nanking Massacre remains far worse than anything in 40k as, while a much smaller scale, the sheer inhumanity of its actions is far greater.

 

What I want is a 40k story about a pseudo-holocaust survivor, thrown into a mass grave by space marines (hell maybe even just a survivor of Talos' raid in the final novel), and crawling through a mass of naked bodies of what was previously his family, friends, and neighbors, finding a world devoid of human life. No actual violence in the novel, no bolter porn or battles. Just an emaciated man dressed in rags wandering through the fallout of the apocalypse, trying to come to grips with what happened before psychologically imploding. 40k is held back by its need for battles in every novel, with no book really touching upon the psychological torments of the common man.

 

 

 

I have read plenty of books that PROVE the claim of how ruthless and terrible the Imperium seems.

All of which is either justified by the need to preserve the very species from extinction, happens in a very small percentage and barely applicable to the majority, or nothing compared to reality.

[LaurieJGoulding]

There are some agonisingly literal interpretations, there.

 

I could pick many of them apart, but I have to wash my hair.

[Lay]

 

40k is held back by its need for battles in every novel, with no book really touching upon the psychological torments of the common man.

 

That's probably for the best.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

40k is held back by its need for battles in every novel, with no book really touching upon the psychological torments of the common man.

That's probably for the best.

In the Imperium, every year is 2016 with more skulls.

[MrDarth151]

 

But the problem with that is that novels are presented from a more in universe perspective. What happens to them is "normal" and so we never see it in a shocking way.

 

That is because we don't see many that shocking things period.

 

 

You get shot if you run.

 

United States still has death punishement for dessertion in the face of an enemy. Sure, they will put you on trial first, but the Imperium does not have the luxury of time, usually. Necropolis did implied that there are enough cases of military court to form precedents.

 

 

You get shot if you talk back.

 

Most armies won't look at you kindly for back talking to your commanding officer. First world democratic armies, and they are bleeding hearts when it comes to it.

 

I don't see precisely how it is horrific. Especially as, if we go by the books, that does not happen that often. The newest codex Astra Militarum, in fact, states wiithout leaving it to interpretation that punishment of death is considered only in extremis.

 

Which means that if someone portrayed commissars mass shooting their subordinates for back talking, they should really study their material more closely. Where did you saw it? I don't recall any commissars like that in the books I've read.

 

 

You have no chance of ever going home.

 

Actually, Gun Haley's Baneblade presents Guard Regiments coming back to their world of origin, as I recall. It can happen. It is very unlikely to happen, but it can happen.

 

And that's on demands of war, not any deliberate totalitarian cruelty. If any benevolent goverment would find itself in Imperium's situation, there would be no change.

 

 

You get whipped by many commissars to force you forward.

 

Where is that from? It's not from the recent codexes for the Imperial Guard and I don't recall commissars acting in that manner in any novel I've read that was featuring them.

 

 

Daemons means death.

 

One wonders how Cadia exists still, then.

 

 

not protected by the legal system.

 

If so, how would servitors made of murderers and beater be so common?

 

 

Breaking certain laws can mean death for several generations and branches of your whole family.

 

Usually within reasonable bounds. Because we have a wonderful threat of immortal evil gods that corrupt everything they touch.

 

Meeting a fallen means death for you by dark angels.

 

As I can see beneath your avatar, you are living in the US. I would like to inform you that you are statistically more likely to get murdered by your own family or get shot by the police than an Imperial citizen has of meeting a Fallen.

 

Actually, you are statistically more likely to die of being hit by a lightning, eaten by a shark or being hit by a meteorite.

 

There is at best a hundred thousand of Fallen spread around ten thousand of years and a million worlds at minimum. A probability of meeting is miniscule, even if they did their very best to open and upfront, and they are sneaky bastards.

 

 

Abductions into the navy through mass press ganging.

 

Really not that terrible. Well, terrible from perspective of someone privaleged to live in a first world country. For the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable? Meh.

 

 

Being a good citizen means you or your daughter will have your throat slit to make a single bolter round "holy".

 

 

That shows up in one Ben Counter story, from what I remember, and I still have no idea from where he get it from. Also, not only is that miniscule amount of people in the Imperium, Grey Knights have just about best moral justification in the universe (Thank you again, Chaos, the Gods gift to authoritarians).

 

 

Death of you and your family, and likely entire planet, for threats you might not have even seen.

 

You are aware that Armageddon aftermatch was an exception, as far as 40k fluff goes, and not the rule, right?

 

 

A cult in the under city can mean legal death for you, and you've never even met them.

 

And? A cult can turn a world into a Daemon World. Utilitarian justification are more than met. And living on Daemon World is infinetely more terrible than being dead.

 

 

Everything I've just listed has been presented in books.

 

I eagerly await citations on some of it.

 

 

I have read plenty of books that PROVE the claim of how ruthless and terrible the Imperium seems.

 

Your standarts of proof are lacking, then.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

=][=

Alright, this thread is going to take a time out while things are reviewed. There are quite a few real world references getting tossed around, which brings us close to the edge for the rules.

=][=