Azorius Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Here is my personal speculation and brainstorming about number/size of the not-yet-released Legions Space Wolves: According to the Extermination, they are one of the 'substantial' Legion. Whereas Bjorn says Wolves have never been a 'big' Legion, that does not internally contradict. After all, according to Forge World, middle-size Legion is around 120,000-130,000 and above-middle Legions is around 150,000. So I assume Space Wolves number would be in excess of 100,000 at the very least. Dark Angels: Previously, Dark Angels number has been supposed to be around 150,000. 30 Orders each 5,000 marines, so 5,000x30. However Forge World Books clearly state Dark Angels are one of the largest Legion along with the Iron Warriors(Massacre) and they once possessed around 216,000+ Astartes and recovered their initial strength prior Heresy. Moreover, according to the Forge World, Dark Angels have numerous void outposts and watch fortresses...all of them are viable recruitment facilities/headquarters and each and every of them is unimaginably large and powerful. How large and powerful? In Wolf King, a single Dark Angels watch fortress and attendant fleet mauled main fleet of the Alpha Legion, which had crippled and then nearly annihilated entire fleet of the Wolves. And in Wolf King, Dark Angels commander confesses sorta 'we are more powerful than any other period'. So I think it would be safe to presume that Dark Angels have at least 200,000+ Legionary in total during the heresy and probably as many as the Ultamarines, just like the Word Bearers achieved. Blood Angels: IIRC, in Fear to Tread Horus refers Blood Angels have around 120,000 Legionaries. But that may be biased and untrue, just like Thousand Sons' 10,000 or World Bearers 140,000 or Alpha Legion and Night Lords' 90,000 to 120,000 etc. Blood Angels are always one of the most powerful and prestigious Legion and according to Forge World, Baal is a 'throneworld' and Ninth Legion recruits from multiple worlds. So I think that 120,000 number merely indicates 'bulk' of the Legion(like Retribution clearly stated) and actual size of the Legion would likely be around 130,000 to 150,000. Then we have interesting bunches like Lamentii guard and Lord Captain Morrachi's expeditionary force and around 8,000 strong garrisons of the Baal... Thus, why below 150,000? Because according to Extermination, gene seed of the Ninth Legions is very unstable. How unstable? The answer is as unstable as the Sixth Legion. Yep, implant success rate of the Blood Angels is comparable to the Space Wolves - at least during the Great Crusade and the Heresy era. So I doubt they ever reached size of Sons of Horus or Iron Warriors, despite of their extensive recruitment efforts. In any case, I'm certain that estimated number of the both Angels would be heavily revised like some other Legions. White Scars: Just ignore them. Who know? Thanks to the Legion's notoriously quixotic, dispersed nature no one can sure. However their gene seed is assuredly stable, and according to Forge World, they rule an entire cluster and take tributes from them - just same as the Iron Warriors. And we know Iron Warriors have in excess of 180,000 Astartes...whereas I doubt White Scars supply and logistic network would be as extensive as Iron Warriors', the Fifth Legion would unlikely be a small one, as old Index Astartes lore suggested. Any thoughts and opinions is welcomed, especially from 30k-ers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4599858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 90,000 seems a little on the small side but then again I don't think they massively suffered until the siege anyway, even fear to tread didn't seem that bad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4599943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from. IIRC number of each BA company is 300 to 500 or more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4600138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Logic seems pretty sound on everything there. I don't think DA will be quite that large at the start of the Heresy, Angels of Caliban implies it would be closer to the 100,000 mark. I'd take FW accuracy over BL any day though so I really can't dispute your reasoning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4600439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm glad to hear that. And it seems the Angels of Caliban implying that the Lion's own detachment would be closer to 100,000 mark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4600820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from. I honestly hope to everything that that kind of thing changes. It irks me to no end that their organization structure stopped at captain in Fear to Tread. Fortunately Forge World gave them at least a defunct chapter, meaning they likely have chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4600824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from.I honestly hope to everything that that kind of thing changes. It irks me to no end that their organization structure stopped at captain in Fear to Tread. Fortunately Forge World gave them at least a defunct chapter, meaning they likely have chapters. ADB rescued us. Zephon was either a Dominion himself or led a Dominion (can't remember which ATM) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4600950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Oh good! And it even sounds awesome. Man, now I can't wait for them at FW again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from.I honestly hope to everything that that kind of thing changes. It irks me to no end that their organization structure stopped at captain in Fear to Tread. Fortunately Forge World gave them at least a defunct chapter, meaning they likely have chapters. ADB rescued us. Zephon was either a Dominion himself or led a Dominion (can't remember which ATM) Oh good! And it even sounds awesome. Man, now I can't wait for them at FW again! No, not ADB. Actually the lore god, Alan Bligh himself, delivered us. Forge World books explicitly state the Blood Angel rank of the "Dominar" and the "Blooded" - the former command a Dominion, while latter command a Company equivalent. And then we know the Blood Angels have at least a Chapter...so let's wait and behold our most noble and magnificent of the Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Ultramarines - 250,000Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000World Eaters - 150,000Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000 (possibly more by the Isstvan Massacres)Blood Angels - 120,000Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000Iron Hands - 113,000 Emperor's children 110,000 - 54,000 after Isstvan Imperial Fists - 100,000 (Old figure, don't remember actual ballpark, it's in Phall.) Dark Angels 100,000 - unknown traitorsDeath Guard - 95,000Salamanders - 89,000Raven Guard - 80,000 Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,200 ish survive the sacking of Prospero) Alpha Legion - Trololololololololololololololo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 Do not believe in the Lexicanum. And for the Blood Angels and the Thousand Sons, the figure will probably be revised. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboosegg Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Doesnt the book with the DA rules in state that by the outbreak of the heresy the had again increased numbers to one of the largest legions 100,000 seems a bit small for that ☺ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Remember that Extermination denotes that the Raven Guard were the smallest legion post Gate 42 (iirc) and numbered 83k marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from.I honestly hope to everything that that kind of thing changes. It irks me to no end that their organization structure stopped at captain in Fear to Tread. Fortunately Forge World gave them at least a defunct chapter, meaning they likely have chapters. ADB rescued us. Zephon was either a Dominion himself or led a Dominion (can't remember which ATM) Oh good! And it even sounds awesome. Man, now I can't wait for them at FW again! No, not ADB. Actually the lore god, Alan Bligh himself, delivered us. Forge World books explicitly state the Blood Angel rank of the "Dominar" and the "Blooded" - the former command a Dominion, while latter command a Company equivalent. And then we know the Blood Angels have at least a Chapter...so let's wait and behold our most noble and magnificent of the Legions. Whaa? When did Alan say that? I love that man Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Theae figures are approximates and subject to change. There is no firm number for DA as of now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 Remember that Extermination denotes that the Raven Guard were the smallest legion post Gate 42 (iirc) and numbered 83k marines. And remember there are unknown thousands of exiled, reaving Terran Legionaries of the Nomad Predation fleet. And still, according to the same book, the Raven Guard are 'the smallest Legion' So I doubt number of the Thousand Sons would be less than 85,000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 24, 2016 Author Share Posted December 24, 2016 Logic seems pretty sound on everything there. I don't think DA will be quite that large at the start of the Heresy, Angels of Caliban implies it would be closer to the 100,000 mark. I'd take FW accuracy over BL any day though so I really can't dispute your reasoning. Doesnt the book with the DA rules in state that by the outbreak of the heresy the had again increased numbers to one of the largest legions 100,000 seems a bit small for that ☺ Theae figures are approximates and subject to change. There is no firm number for DA as of now. The Forge World books repetitively confirm the Dark Angels are one of the largest and most powerful Legions and before Heresy, they already managed to replenish their savage loss during the Rangdan Xenocide and recover the Legion's original strength and become 'a powerful and independent Legion again'. And all of these facts are cross-verified via the Wolf King - like I said, according to Wolf King, the First Legion is now 'more powerful than any other juncture'. So it 'closer to the 100,000 mark' would be a tremendous underestimation of numeric strength of the Dark Angels and even 150,000 figure is improbably underrated assessment. And I will be severely disappointed at the Forge World if they break their own words and render the Dark Angels number fall short of the Iron Warriors at the very least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 24, 2016 Author Share Posted December 24, 2016 I'm not 100 percent positive but I think the blood angels were 300 companies of 300. Can't remember where I'm pulling that from.I honestly hope to everything that that kind of thing changes. It irks me to no end that their organization structure stopped at captain in Fear to Tread. Fortunately Forge World gave them at least a defunct chapter, meaning they likely have chapters. ADB rescued us. Zephon was either a Dominion himself or led a Dominion (can't remember which ATM) Oh good! And it even sounds awesome. Man, now I can't wait for them at FW again! No, not ADB. Actually the lore god, Alan Bligh himself, delivered us. Forge World books explicitly state the Blood Angel rank of the "Dominar" and the "Blooded" - the former command a Dominion, while latter command a Company equivalent. And then we know the Blood Angels have at least a Chapter...so let's wait and behold our most noble and magnificent of the Legions. Whaa? When did Alan say that? I love that man Oh, and the Blood Angels have battalion-esque formations, too. Forge World confirmed they have 'commander' rank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329009-late-great-crusadeearly-heresy-era-legion-size/#findComment-4601941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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