HH Book 42: Garro

[bluntblade]

One thing I still love about the Alaxxes ambush is that Wraight managed to give "until next winter", a sincere final farewell in Battle of the Fang, an origin as an awkward attempt at courtesy from the Khan in Scars.

[HeritorA]

One thing I still love about the Alaxxes ambush is that Wraight managed to give "until next winter", a sincere final farewell in Battle of the Fang, an origin as an awkward attempt at courtesy from the Khan in Scars.

It was used in 'Scars' - and very funny: 'Send them my apologies and what do they say before farewell - something like "until next winter" ;)

[Phoebus]

I'm roughly three quarters into Garro: Weapon of Fate.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure why this book was billed as a "novelization." Sure, short stories and audiobooks/dramas are technically a different format, but the point of a novelization is to, well, transform that other medium into a novel. Garro is not a novel. I understand that there are "new and extended scenes, whole new chapters in fact," but bridging seven separate stories does not a novel make.

 

As it stands, if it has to be called a novel, Garro does not feel like a very good one. You would expect that James Swallow would seek to bridge this novel with Flight of the Eisenstein, but that isn't the case. The rather brief introduction doesn't really reference those momentous events much, and this, along with the gulf between those two works - thirty-seven other books were released in the interim - makes for a rather abrupt start.

 

There are a couple of over-arching stories that the plot focuses on, but they don't necessarily support each other that well. We never get to see how Garro's actual comrades within the Knights-Errant feel about his beliefs and desire to quest for Keeler, for instance. Garro's interaction with Sigismund on this matter is both interesting and apropos given what we know of the Black Templars' own eventual beliefs and Chapter Cult, but exploring this concept with a "guest star" reinforces the feeling that one self-contained story has been joined with several others.

 

Could those separate stories have been re-worked entirely to produce a cohesive novel? I think so, though it would have to be a daunting, ambitious project. To what extent would James Swallow have been able to do this without editing the individual components to the extent that they were no longer the same stories?

(I suppose a Foreword explaining that the earlier iterations of the individual stories can be considered the more in-depth look at those events would suffice for most, or at least some, readers.)

 

So that raises the question: why was Garro not released as an anthology collecting a number of different stories whose common thread is the eponymous protagonist? At the risk of re-opening a can of worms from a different topic, I wonder to what extent Black Library hesitated to bill Garro as an anthology, given that this would have meant only six out of the last thirteen Numbered Entries (or five of the last ten; or two of the last five; however you like it) would have been actual novels. At a time when the release schedule is flirting with a 1:1 ratio between novels and anthologies, and when the length of novels itself seems to be coming into question now and again, I find myself worrying that the notion of what a novel is exactly might come under debate. In turn, I find myself thinking about Gav Thorpe's afterword in Corax:

 

"From the moment I first discussed Soulforge with Laurie Goulding, ... the plan was clear. There was unlikely to be another full Raven Guard novel on the schedule any time soon, so the story would be carried forwards in other, shorter forms. The arc of Corax and the development of the characters that would culminate in Weregeld (a title and subject we agreed right at the outset) would be threaded through every piece of fiction as if they were one volume.

 

Which, of course, they now are."

[Taliesin]

 

I'm roughly three quarters into Garro: Weapon of Fate.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure why this book was billed as a "novelization." 

 

So that raises the question: why was Garro not released as an anthology collecting a number of different stories whose common thread is the eponymous protagonist? At the risk of re-opening a can of worms from a different topic, I wonder to what extent Black Library hesitated to bill Garro as an anthology, given that this would have meant only six out of the last thirteen Numbered Entries (or five of the last ten; or two of the last five; however you like it) would have been actual novels. At a time when the release schedule is flirting with a 1:1 ratio between novels and anthologies, and when the length of novels itself seems to be coming into question now and again, I find myself worrying that the notion of what a novel is exactly might come under debate. 

 

 

Completely valid point in my opinion. I have not read Garro and as such am not passing any judgement on it, but I do wonder why the insistence on this being a novel, when several people have now mentioned that it does not feel like that to them, and that their reading of the book is actually in keeping with the initial impression people have of this book as being an anthology, rather than being in keeping with BL's insistence that we are in fact dealing with a novel here ( though be it one that exists of old/existing material).

 

It is my feeling that the HH series is hitting a sort of lull at the moment, with big guns scheduled to produce Non-Heresy books in 2017 instead, and that perhaps, I am just speculating here, BL does not want it to come across as if the release schedule is being padded out with more and more anthologies, book 43 being one as well.

 

In fairness, the other side of that is that we do not know what is scheduled for the 2nd half of 2017, we may see more than just Crimson King, Ruinstorm and Old Earth this year, and hopefully that will be the case. Annandale's track record is not great, but the subject matter is interesting, so that is a wait and see.

[hopkins]

novel/anthology/novella, who cares? it's a book

 

we'll get 4 or 5 big HH stories this year, no question about that, plus shorts/audios and primarch books

the march for terra continues

[Tymell]

While I agree Garro is no disappointment in the schedule (we knew they'd be doing a Garro collection at some point), I do have to echo the sentiment that this does still feel more like a grouping of the original stories than a truly enhanced, expanded book. The fact is, if you've already read/heard all these stories, you won't miss anything by skipping this. Things are added/changed, but only in order to make it flow better as a single book, the core stories and characters aren't really developed or expanded upon in any significant way, in my opinion.

 

Again, this isn't to blast the book or overly complain: for the longest time I just expected another simple anthology, one story after the other. There -is- work put into making this flow a bit better, though at the same time it also feels like there's potential for more. There are still a lot of gaps in the story, and you can still tell it was originally a collection of separate ones.

 

In that regard I might wish for more, but that's wanting it to be something it isn't. For what it is, as a collection of short stories put together and worked on to flow better, yeah, it works okay. But personally, I would say that if you've already experienced the stories that make this up, then you don't need to go through this too.

[Biscuittzz]

 

In turn, I find myself thinking about Gav Thorpe's afterword in Corax:

 

"From the moment I first discussed Soulforge with Laurie Goulding, ... the plan was clear. There was unlikely to be another full Raven Guard novel on the schedule any time soon, so the story would be carried forwards in other, shorter forms. The arc of Corax and the development of the characters that would culminate in Weregeld (a title and subject we agreed right at the outset) would be threaded through every piece of fiction as if they were one volume.

 

Which, of course, they now are."

 

 

While Gav at least explained it so, and with the story already set out, why then was everything after Deliverance Lost not put out completely as a novel? From reading Corax, every short and novella meshes quite well together ( maybe an extra chapter or so for bridging but whatever) and culminates well with Weregeld.

 

The underlying tone and narrative of the stories are all practically the same too. (Corax's desire for vengeance but also his contempt for the warp and what to do with the Raptors).

[Phoebus]

Again, this isn't to blast the book or overly complain: for the longest time I just expected another simple anthology, one story after the other. 

 

 

 

In turn, I find myself thinking about Gav Thorpe's afterword in Corax:

 

"From the moment I first discussed Soulforge with Laurie Goulding, ... the plan was clear. There was unlikely to be another full Raven Guard novel on the schedule any time soon, so the story would be carried forwards in other, shorter forms. The arc of Corax and the development of the characters that would culminate in Weregeld (a title and subject we agreed right at the outset) would be threaded through every piece of fiction as if they were one volume.

 

Which, of course, they now are."

 

 

While Gav at least explained it so, and with the story already set out, why then was everything after Deliverance Lost not put out completely as a novel?

That there was an understanding that Black Library would release what should have been a novel in "other, shorter forms," is a matter of record. I imagine that both Gav Thorpe and Laurie Goulding knew that this material would be released as a Numbered Entry - if not from the onset, then by 2015 at the latest. My fear is that this had less to do with Gav's ability to deliver a certain novel by a certain date, and that it had more to do with a desire to sell something twice (or more than that, in some cases). My bigger fear is that Garro is an evolution of that thought process: that repurposing several stories into a novel-by-another-name (versus branding it an anthology, since those are already being released at roughly a 1:1 ratio as actual novels) might be an effort "to get the pill to go down smoother," as it were.

 

My greatest fear is that the Siege of Terra is closer than the actual release schedule would indicate; and that the wait is being artificially prolonged by a promise to re-release, in every format, eventually, everything that already been released; and that it is a greater priority to release stuff that can be re-released than novels themselves.

[Mellow]

By the God-Emperor I hope that isn't the case. Just give me all the Novels to complete the series. Release them all at once for all I care. Lol

[b1soul]

I think I'll stick with "novel-length anthology" as the most accurate description.

 

That said, it really is about quality, not quantity. Sometimes, greater quantity does help quality...but I feel that James Swallow's work is always better when it's shorter ;)

[HeritorA]

I think I'll stick with "novel-length anthology" as the most accurate description.

That said, it really is about quality, not quantity. Sometimes, greater quantity does help quality...but I feel that James Swallow's work is always better when it's shorter

Thank you b1soul, Taliesin and, Tymell for seeing that Garro is not a novel and definitely should not have been made a numbered book in the serie.

If 'Shattered Legions' will indeed will follow up as a numbered book (as it planned for now) it would be direct confirmation for a totally dull year of HH. (Again - i'm not a fan of Kyme and after his tripple fail to create a good HH story 'Old Earth' I will not even touch)

That's leave us only with a probably good 'Crimson King' and some surprises (like PoD last year)

[Mellow]

I agree. It's an anthology.

[HeritorA]

I agree. It's an anthology.

I do understand that somewhere on the other side of Atlantic, in some distant California Laurie lost some hair and something snapped. But Laurie - it is not a novel, sorry but it is a truth.

[Taliesin]

So now that it's out, regardless of what we call it, is it a good story?

[Tymell]

For me it's okay, I'd neither put it among the best nor worst of the series. Garro himself is a decent character, as are some of those around him. The individual stories that make this up vary, I liked Burden of Duty, Shield of Lies and Sword of Truth best I think, and there aren't any I hated.

 

It's tricky to judge it all in one when I've already read/listened to all the parts separately, but my impression is it does still have some issues of flow as a full book. The first third and last third work well enough, but in the middle it does feel like it jumps around a bit much, this is something I was hoping might be smoothed out a bit more. For example, we see Garro go to get his first recruit, return from that, then sometime later go for another, and then suddenly they're off to acquire the last one. Similarly,

Loken

is re-introduced and then disappears without being heard of again. His story is continued elsewhere, but it still feels a bit jarring. Then again, as the title indicates this is the story of Garro, not the Knights-Errant as a whole. It's supposed to be showing his progression and character development, and in parts like the Shield of Lies and Burden of Duty sections I think this is done very well. Even in that regard, I don't think it's perfect, but it's not sorely lacking either.

 

In short I think the individual tales are generally decent, but if they did want to push it as a novel rather than an anthology, a bit more could have been done to fulfil that.

[HeritorA]

For me it's okay, I'd neither put it among the best nor worst of the series. Garro himself is a decent character, as are some of those around him. The individual stories that make this up vary, I liked Burden of Duty, Shield of Lies and Sword of Truth best I think, and there aren't any I hated.

 

It's tricky to judge it all in one when I've already read/listened to all the parts separately, but my impression is it does still have some issues of flow as a full book. The first third and last third work well enough, but in the middle it does feel like it jumps around a bit much, this is something I was hoping might be smoothed out a bit more. For example, we see Garro go to get his first recruit, return from that, then sometime later go for another, and then suddenly they're off to acquire the last one. Similarly,

Loken

is re-introduced and then disappears without being heard of again. His story is continued elsewhere, but it still feels a bit jarring. Then again, as the title indicates this is the story of Garro, not the Knights-Errant as a whole. It's supposed to be showing his progression and character development, and in parts like the Shield of Lies and Burden of Duty sections I think this is done very well. Even in that regard, I don't think it's perfect, but it's not sorely lacking either.

 

In short I think the individual tales are generally decent, but if they did want to push it as a novel rather than an anthology, a bit more could have been done to fulfil that.

The problem is - they haven't even edited it with the changes to events in HH. After all this years for example - story where Garro found Rubio on Calth is about battle for Numinus zone (which in Garro is taking place over several days!). But we all read 'Know no Fear ' - and we all know that war on Calth was a 1 day event. Underworld war is absolutely different thing.

It's totally ruin any immersion into the setting. Same with the Vow of Fate and character from Nemesis - a lot of small inconsistencies with other novels!

[LaurieJGoulding]

Incorrect. The 'Garro' storylines were edited as much as was appropriate for the novelisation, to prevent outright contradictions. Beyond that, why would we have edited it? That would invalidate audio dramas which are still available for sale, as canonical stories.

 

We only saw the initial battle for the gubernatorial palace near Numinus, and the city itself, in 'Know No Fear'... whereas the events in 'Oath of Moment' are clearly taking place AFTER the sun has passed over at least once, scorching the surface. This is the start of the Underworld War. Rubio's company were stragglers caught in the outermost tunnels, who haven't retreated too far below ground.

 

Don't jump to conclusions. We always aimed for "both/and, not either/or". These stories are universally *consistent*, if not 100% flawlessly continuous. And those discrepancies can be attributed to differences in character opinion/perception.

 

Oh yeah - I'm back, by the way. I've brought my buckets of water and sand for your ragefires once again.

[Taliesin]

.

 

Oh yeah - I'm back, by the way. I've brought my buckets of water and sand for your ragefires once again.

 

Haha, very good! How has the start in California been?

[DukeLeto69]

 

.

 

Oh yeah - I'm back, by the way. I've brought my buckets of water and sand for your ragefires once again.

 

 

Haha, very good! How has the start in California been?

I loved Laurie's tweet showing it raining in California LOL the British always take the weather with them, it gives us something to complain about!!!!

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

Haha, very good! How has the start in California been?

 

 

Great, thank you (aside from the weather!)

 

Weirdly, I spent some of yesterday explaining the differences between novels, anthologies and omnibuses. TOPICAL.

[Felix Antipodes]

There is a great old book term from mid last century (mainly in SF publishing) called a "fix-up".  Essentially an author would take several short stories previously published in genre magazines and weave them into a single novel.  Garro sounds a lot like this.  I will see if Mr Swallow got it right when Garro comes to the top of my To Read pile.

[LaurieJGoulding]

"Fix-up" is a term that Nick Kyme and I often used behind the scenes, but marketing guys don't like it.

[HeritorA]

Incorrect. The 'Garro' storylines were edited as much as was appropriate for the novelisation, to prevent outright contradictions. Beyond that, why would we have edited it? That would invalidate audio dramas which are still available for sale, as canonical stories.

We only saw the initial battle for the gubernatorial palace near Numinus, and the city itself, in 'Know No Fear'... whereas the events in 'Oath of Moment' are clearly taking place AFTER the sun has passed over at least once, scorching the surface. This is the start of the Underworld War. Rubio's company were stragglers caught in the outermost tunnels, who haven't retreated too far below ground.

Don't jump to conclusions. We always aimed for "both/and, not either/or". These stories are universally *consistent*, if not 100% flawlessly continuous. And those discrepancies can be attributed to differences in character opinion/perception.

Oh yeah - I'm back, by the way. I've brought my buckets of water and sand for your ragefires once again.

Good - I see my mistake and stand ready to correct them.

It's nice to see you again LaurieJGoulding

Haha, very good! How has the start in California been?

Great, thank you (aside from the weather!)

Weirdly, I spent some of yesterday explaining the differences between novels, anthologies and omnibuses. TOPICAL.

Seems editorial hell will follow you for a long time :)

[R_F_D]

Just getting round to starting this. Am I correct in thinking that most people who were critical of this had previously listened to the audios?

[A D-B]

Just getting round to starting this. Am I correct in thinking that most people who were critical of this had previously listened to the audios?

 

I'm super-biased, but I think Jim's Garro work is by far his strongest, and definitely my fave. Absolutely love his Garro stuff.