Tacticals just a tax? What troop choices to take?

[NoLifeKing]

Having played the Adepticon missions, I will say this. Kill Points make Tacticals pointless. 

 

5 Objectives, and no kill points give the humble tactical squad in a rhino an actual role. Being able to fend off an assault and survive shooting which are basically the only strengths they have, is actually valuable at that low point cost. It also opens up the other units, like dreads and contemptors, since they are a really good counter, but essentially pointless when they give up a KP to a spare lascannon shot, and lose assaults to typical infantry units (Terminators, vets)

 

I do say that rhino is an overrated upgrade and the tacticals dont actually need it, exactly because it gives off kill points so easily, i never have more than two rhinos on the field and thats for squads that actually need the mobility and protection like tactical support squad.  Very rarely do i see any need to buy those rhinos, because the tacticals are just so cheap, and if the enemy decides to shoot at them, thats all fine and dandy to me, and if they don't? thats also good, let me have dem objectives.

[Lord_Ikka]

So, as far as I can make out, we have a couple of problems with Tactical squads of both the 10 and 20 man variety.

 

1. The big 20-man squads aren't fast enough to take objectives.

 

2. With Veteran squads being cheaper, the smaller 10-man tac squads don't have the same hitting power due to the sniper ability.

 

3. 30k in general has a mass of AP3 or lower weaponry available and the standard marine just doesn't live long.

 

Addressing these issues in reverse order:

 

3. Tough luck. If you didn't want to play a game where PA vs PA was standard and everyone is trying to kill PA go to 40k. This is a ridiculous complaint, as it complains about the very basis of the Horus Heresy setting- Space Marines fighting Space Marines. Of course there will be plenty of anti-PA weaponry, that is what everyone is trying to kill.

 

2. True. Veteran squads, on average, will kill more than a Tac squad of equal size, though they will cost 35 points more. However, for an minimum equivalent points value (124 Vets vs 125 Tac) the Tac squad gains 3 Wounds. Not a lot true, but still a definite factor. Vets are no harder to kill than regular tacs, and at base value it is more of a defensive vs offensive choice- Do you choose the vets for the possible value of getting some more wounding shots in or do you choose a tac squad that will possibly last a round longer when targeted? 

 

Tactical squads can be slightly upgraded, but in reality their job is to capture objectives and hopefully distract the enemy into attacking them rather than more expensive, specialized squads. Offensively, they can fight other basic Troop choices, but are at a disadvantage against anything else. Vets have a different, though occasionally overlapping role- objective capturing and offensive operations. Depending on the loadout, Vets can basically take on anything but they pay for it in increasing their points cost dramatically.

 

1.20-man blobs are slow. Unfortunately, unless you spend a Heavy Support choice and take a Spartan (which can be better used to transport termies and/or HQs) or Fast Attack choice for a Storm Eagle, we don't have a transport option to take a full 20-man squad. This limits their usefulness and if remedied could help make taking large tactical squads become more popular. I see a couple of options. One is to release a new Rhino variant, basically keeping the stats the same but it is larger and holds double the load. I guess it would be a Rhino limo... Or, make a new rule that allows tac squads to take 2 Rhinos if they number 15 or more models. Require the vehicles to stay in squadron distance and disembarking has to be done by both vehicles at the same time- even if one is wrecked both have to disembark their models.

 

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Edit: Changed due to Legionaire's catching a mistake :D

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

1.20-man blobs are slow. Unfortunately, unless you spend a Heavy Support choice and take a Land Raider (which can be better used to transport termies and/or HQs) we don't have a transport option to take a full 20-man squad. This limits their usefulness and if remedied could help make taking large tactical squads become more popular. I see a couple of options. One is to release a new Rhino variant, basically keeping the stats the same but it is larger and holds double the load. I guess it would be a Rhino limo... Or, make a new rule that allows tac squads to take 2 Rhinos if they number 15 or more models. Require the vehicles to stay in squadron distance and disembarking has to be done by both vehicles at the same time- even if one is wrecked both have to disembark their models.

 

I would just like to point out that Land Raider Phobos and Proteus can only carry 10 models the Achilles variants 6 models, it is the Spartan that can carry up to 25. If you wanted to use a fast attack slot the Storm Eagle Gunship can carry 20 models.

[Lord_Ikka]

Damn, knew I messed up something. Don't have my books with me, thanks for the correction. Spartan, not Land Raider.

[Gorgoff]

Bastion-> Escape Hatched-> Turn one movement of 18" with 20 dudes.

Tried it, loved it.

[depthcharge12]

*cough cough Kharybdis claw cough*

 

Drop the pod first turn then ran 18 despoilers plus Mal and and apothecary straight into Athrawes deployment zone. The effect was hilarious.

[twistinthunder]

 

 

2. True. Veteran squads, on average, will kill more than a Tac squad of equal size, though they will cost 35 points more. However, for an minimum equivalent points value (124 Vets vs 125 Tac) the Tac squad gains 3 Wounds. Not a lot true, but still a definite factor. Vets are no harder to kill than regular tacs, and at base value it is more of a defensive vs offensive choice- Do you choose the vets for the possible value of getting some more wounding shots in or do you choose a tac squad that will possibly last a round longer when targeted? 

 

Tactical squads can be slightly upgraded, but in reality their job is to capture objectives and hopefully distract the enemy into attacking them rather than more expensive, specialized squads. Offensively, they can fight other basic Troop choices, but are at a disadvantage against anything else. Vets have a different, though occasionally overlapping role- objective capturing and offensive operations. Depending on the loadout, Vets can basically take on anything but they pay for it in increasing their points cost dramatically.

 

 

 

 

 

An equivalently armed Tac Squad will cost 15 points less that a 10 man veteran squad not 35.

[Lord_Ikka]

A bare 10-man vet squad is 160 points compared to the tacticals 125.

[Angmarred]

A bare 10-man vet squad is 160 points compared to the tacticals 125.

He's adding 20 points to give the Tactical a chainsworda, which almost no one does

[Lord_Ikka]

 

A bare 10-man vet squad is 160 points compared to the tacticals 125.

He's adding 20 points to give the Tactical a chainsworda, which almost no one does

Ah. That makes sense. I add it in normally , but thats because it is fluffy for DA.

[ronin_cse]

So, as far as I can make out, we have a couple of problems with Tactical squads of both the 10 and 20 man variety.

1. The big 20-man squads aren't fast enough to take objectives.

2. With Veteran squads being cheaper, the smaller 10-man tac squads don't have the same hitting power due to the sniper ability.

3. 30k in general has a mass of AP3 or lower weaponry available and the standard marine just doesn't live long.

Addressing these issues in reverse order:

3. Tough luck. If you didn't want to play a game where PA vs PA was standard and everyone is trying to kill PA go to 40k. This is a ridiculous complaint, as it complains about the very basis of the Horus Heresy setting- Space Marines fighting Space Marines. Of course there will be plenty of anti-PA weaponry, that is what everyone is trying to kill.

2. True. Veteran squads, on average, will kill more than a Tac squad of equal size, though they will cost 35 points more. However, for an minimum equivalent points value (124 Vets vs 125 Tac) the Tac squad gains 3 Wounds. Not a lot true, but still a definite factor. Vets are no harder to kill than regular tacs, and at base value it is more of a defensive vs offensive choice- Do you choose the vets for the possible value of getting some more wounding shots in or do you choose a tac squad that will possibly last a round longer when targeted?

Tactical squads can be slightly upgraded, but in reality their job is to capture objectives and hopefully distract the enemy into attacking them rather than more expensive, specialized squads. Offensively, they can fight other basic Troop choices, but are at a disadvantage against anything else. Vets have a different, though occasionally overlapping role- objective capturing and offensive operations. Depending on the loadout, Vets can basically take on anything but they pay for it in increasing their points cost dramatically.

1.20-man blobs are slow. Unfortunately, unless you spend a Heavy Support choice and take a Spartan (which can be better used to transport termies and/or HQs) or Fast Attack choice for a Storm Eagle, we don't have a transport option to take a full 20-man squad. This limits their usefulness and if remedied could help make taking large tactical squads become more popular. I see a couple of options. One is to release a new Rhino variant, basically keeping the stats the same but it is larger and holds double the load. I guess it would be a Rhino limo... Or, make a new rule that allows tac squads to take 2 Rhinos if they number 15 or more models. Require the vehicles to stay in squadron distance and disembarking has to be done by both vehicles at the same time- even if one is wrecked both have to disembark their models.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: Changed due to Legionaire's catching a mistake

I absolutely love this double Rhino idea, plus it would look great on the table top!

[Withershadow]

 

A bare 10-man vet squad is 160 points compared to the tacticals 125.

He's adding 20 points to give the Tactical a chainsworda, which almost no one does

 

If I'm using tactical marines, I usually do spring for the chainswords. Partially because I use vets/tac models interchangeably and I gave everyone CCWs when assembling them. Partially because it makes a difference against other troop choices, especially if your Legion rules boost your melee capability somehow. I've had preferred enemy tactical squads kill melee specialists through sheer volume of dice.

[Baluc]

I think it depends on your legion when it comes to upgrades. If you are just slaming them in a LR in Armoured Spearhead maybe save the points. 

[NoLifeKing]

 

1. The big 20-man squads aren't fast enough to take objectives.

I would see this as an issue in maelstrom of war missions, which is an entirely different beast, but for the age of darkness missions which at least i have understood is the default preference for people who play horus heresy, i dont see this as an issue. I have to wonder, is your typical gaming table 100% difficult terrain and you roll just ones? because i don't see how you can't make it in 5 turns to objectives on the field. 

 

Thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to be on the objective until the end of the game, and even so, unless you drag your ass through a forest with the tactical squad, they will be on or even over the midfield(depending on the deployment map) on turn 3 at least.  

 

Also, many of the age of darkness armies have hard time to find proper, reliable mobility that doesn't cost one fourth of your whole army, so mobility isn't found in abundance. Therefore the tactical squad doesn't even need to be that fast Unless of course, you prefer to play maelstrom of war missions and/or you have for some weird reason decided to line all of the objectives as close to the opposing board edge.