Azorius Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 They have stable gene seed. They have large recruitment pool and recruit with passion. They do not fight wastefully and abhor attrition warfare. They even have Luna gene seed facility along with the Ultramarines and the World Bearers. So why on the earth their number is less than 100,000? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 because it is ? also they lost close to a third oft he legion at Phall Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 because it is ? also they lost close to a third oft he legion at Phall 'because it is' is a dishonest answer to say the least. And that was before Battle of the Phall System. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 how is that dishonest? If thats the number that we have been provided thats what it is , no need to get your underwear all twisted up about it captain 10 posts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Not sure, I don't think there's an answer. It could possibly be chalked down to their process/gene-seed - Extermination does mention that their numbers rarely rose above 100,000, so they were consistently the same size, and it notes that the process used to activate their gene-seed caused intense pain, and that many applicants failed the trials, so perhaps it was just a unique part of their gene-code that ensured that they didn't grow at the same rate as other Legions. Their gene seed may have been stable but that doesn't mean it took as easily to applicants as Ultramarine/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors/World Eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 how is that dishonest? If thats the number that we have been provided thats what it is , no need to get your underwear all twisted up about it captain 10 posts. Oh, I'm not an Imperial Fists player, but Ultramarines, so don't worry about that. But I cannot bear answer such as 'because it is'. Everything in the HH has cause and effect. There has to be relevant meaning. Furthermore, I don't know why my number of posts is all that mattered. Perhaps you intend to use it as an insult? How clever. And in any case, this is not my first account. I have been roving here for years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 Not sure, I don't think there's an answer. It could possibly be chalked down to their process/gene-seed - Extermination does mention that their numbers rarely rose above 100,000, so they were consistently the same size, and it notes that the process used to activate their gene-seed caused intense pain, and that many applicants failed the trials, so perhaps it was just a unique part of their gene-code that ensured that they didn't grow at the same rate as other Legions. Their gene seed may have been stable but that doesn't mean it took as easily to applicants as Ultramarine/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors/World Eaters. Or the Dark Angels. Or the Alpha Legion. Hmm.... it seems no less than a third of Legions have supremely stable and easy-to-replicate-and-transplant gene-seed, with very low rejection rate. Yes, according the Extermination, gene-seed of the Seventh cause intense pain and many applicants failed that particular trials and their number was fairly uniform during the Crusade. But that alone could not explain why the Imperial Fists have fewer number than the likes of the Emperor's Children or the Iron Hands. So I think it is the most probable that some unique property of their gene-seed prevented them from breaking 100,000 barrier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 how is that dishonest? If thats the number that we have been provided thats what it is , no need to get your underwear all twisted up about it captain 10 posts. Oh, I'm not an Imperial Fists player, but Ultramarines, so don't worry about that. But I cannot bear answer such as 'because it is'. Everything in the HH has cause and effect. There has to be relevant meaning. Furthermore, I don't know why my number of posts is all that mattered. Perhaps you intend to use it as an insult? How clever. And in any case, this is not my first account. I have been roving here for years. I am an Imperial Fists Player , but thats besides the point. Well sorry bruh , but thats the number weve been given , so thats the best answer yer really gonna get. There is no cut and dry ANSWER as to why the Imperial fists are the size that is recorded for them , the best way to look at the numbers of legions as reported is that they are rough estimates at best and not to dwell on them too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangaman Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I know very little about the Imperial Fists but it is clear that their recruitment was roughly equal to their casualties, regardless of the fact that they avoided having a high attrition rate, they were still Legion Astartes and they still were fighting the hardest and most dangerous enemies of the Imperium, so they were still taking heavy losses. Without having an excess of recruitment, which in this case is hindered by the geneseed being harder to implant, they cant break the 100k threshold they were at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Here's an interesting discussion on the subject: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/166844-size-of-legions/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4604959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Imperial Fist geneseed was difficult to implant and very painful (per Extermination), so the Legion would often take in whole generations of compatible youth for only a companies worth of successful transformations. John French also wrote about the process in Praetorian of Dorn seen through Archamus' eyes, and it is pretty difficult, with many recruits just dying from the trauma of the pain. So while the geneseed itself is relatively stable and pure, the process to take the recruit from human to transhuman is one of the more difficult ones. As for legion numbers: the names recorded in the Temple of Oaths doesn't accurately reflect the sheer volume of recruits every legion took in after the Heresy began. Each legion began a massive recruiting drive and tried implanting as many compatible recruits as possible in spite of the staggering casualties. So if you're worried about how big the legion was during the Heresy the correct answer is 'we aren't sure on specific numbers, but big enough to fight across three segmentums, small enough to be reformable after the siege'. Great topic, by the way, dude! Fluff discussions are so much fun! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 no need to get your underwear all twisted up about it captain 10 posts. Wow. I thought this forum was a beacon of positivity and inclusivity compared to some of the other 30K forums on the net... Disappointing to see I was wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 no need to get your underwear all twisted up about it captain 10 posts.Wow.I thought this forum was a beacon of positivity and inclusivity compared to some of the other 30K forums on the net... Disappointing to see I was wrong. It can be, dude. Don't worry. Its just in a weird place recently. A lot of the old guard are on hiatus and when they come back the Heresy ship will take off again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 bottom left of every post is a small button that says report , you see something you dont like or think is inflammatory , use it and the mods will reprimand the perpetrator as they see fit , they are very good at responding in a timely manner about such things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 It is okay to post as well . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I think Marshal Rohr has nailed it. The only thing I can add is that the IF were often used as part of the Emperor's reserve force - only being released in particularly desperate and brutal campaigns/ battles. My assumption is that the casualty figures would have been very high, despite the IF careful planning - as highlighted by Rangaman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Over the next sixteen decades the Imperial Fists fought on the burning edge of the Great Crusade Relentlessly they pushed from war zone to warzone , were honored by each of their brother legions , and rose high in the estimation of many. In their methods of war the ways of INwit and the Echoes of the VIIth legion's victories combined. They drove ever on, without pause or respite . Just as on Terra they fortified and built to secure what htey conquered , but just as before they did not linger to rule their conquests. While a castellan with a household of warriors might remain to maintain its defences , they did not administer or draw up and enforce laws , they were warriors of the imperium , not its masters , and they existed to serve in w ar and die for its survival. Extermination Page 60 They were not a reserve force during the horus heresy Though on that same page they talk about the hungry recruitment policy that was rivalled " perhaps" only by the ultramarines and the wordbearers I think when you look at the sum total of what we are given the imperial fists maybe were less in number due to the fact that they were on the bleeding edge , and had it in their nature to be stubborn and sacrifice. I.E. their examplary battle as mentioned on pages 74 ad 75 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 "During the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces due to their ability to rapidly redeploy to battlefields aboard Phalanx. They made use of detailed planning and as such were soon found to be supreme urban fighters and siege specialists. After several campaigns and thousands of conquered worlds being brought into the Imperium, the Emperor returned to Terra to build a capital from which He could run His new empire. He took the Imperial Fists with Him, set them up as His praetorians and charged Dorn with the construction of the Imperial Palace, something that did not go unnoticed by the other Primarchs. Perturabo flew into a rage upon hearing that Dorn thought the Imperial Palace would be proof against an assault by even as mighty siege-masters as the Iron Warriors and he unleashed a torrent of vitriol and accusations against his brother Primarch so unfounded that the onlookers from his own Legion were dumbstruck. After this outburst was reported to Dorn, the two Primarchs rarely spoke, neither Legion serving in the same campaign again. The Imperial Fists were ever at the Emperor's side and the Iron Warriors were part of Horus' vanguard." Source: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 you quoted a wikipedia page , I quoted a sourcebook from the HH series o - O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I quilted reading when it turned into a bit of a fight so sorry if someone has mentioned already this. There are two reasons that it could be attributed to: - The Imperial Fists do not have a fifthdom as extense as most legions. Their recruits come a lot from Terra and other places they happen to be since they're practically akin to a crusading chapter operating from the Phalanx as a moving world. - Their process to convert into astartes must have one of the highest casualty ratios since they literally torture the candidates as part of the process in several ways and most famously with the iron gauntlet. Read Praetorian of Dorn where the process of converting Archamus is described. It's a hell of an ordeal and of the top of my head an apothecary gives him a 1/100 chance to survive the torture, let alone the assimilation of the new organs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Much like some have already detailed, the Imperial Fists's size can be explained by their way of war and their use on the front of the Crusade. Warhammer40k Wikia is not a very good source as it does not cite from where such information is taken (Besides the fact that it oftentimes isn't updated). Bladewolf's excerpt from Extermination is the newest and most logical explanation for the given legion size of the Imperial Fists. Some things just are because they are, that's neither dishonest nor bad writing inherently, it is just a tool of fiction. Arda in the Legendarium is called Arda because it is (Much like Morgoth, Eru Illuvatar etc etc). Right here, we have one possible explanation given by Forgeworld. Edit: Bad writing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Also I apologize for being a bit of a bellend about the question , I should have posted my cited explanation. I was wrong to jump down the opening posters throat about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 A strategic reserve isn't the same thing as a reserve force. Your reserves are often you strongest or most reliable troops, like an armored or heavy infantry division. The Imperials Fists are noted in older and newer lore as being used like that, so they were most assuredly at the bleeding edge of Crusade, but they were deployed once breakthroughs happened. This lines up with how shock infantry has always been used. The use of the term reserve may be throwing people off, like they were largely stationary or had a lower optempo, but that's a different kind of reserve specifically mentioned as falling to Auxilia Regiments of the Secundus rating. I think that is what is causing the confusion. Horus is noted as using the Luna Wolves in the same way. This is also one of the points f contention between Dorn and Perturabo, where the Iron Warriors were frequently used as the vanguard of an operation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Stable geneseed doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to implant, just that you don't get any genetic weirdness like the Space Wolves, Thousand Sons etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 A strategic reserve isn't the same thing as a reserve force. Your reserves are often you strongest or most reliable troops, like an armored or heavy infantry division....This lines up with how shock infantry has always been used. The use of the term reserve may be throwing people off, A useful clarification - thanks. I should of considered people's understanding of the term before using it/ explaining myself. Forces used in this manner (as a commanders reserve, whether at the tactical, operational or even strategic level) often sustain the highest casualty ratios. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329216-imperial-fists-size/#findComment-4605524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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