Imperial Fists size

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Much like some have already detailed, the Imperial Fists's size can be explained by their way of war and their use on the front of the Crusade. Warhammer40k Wikia is not a very good source as it does not cite from where such information is taken (Besides the fact that it oftentimes isn't updated). Bladewolf's excerpt from Extermination is the newest and most logical explanation for the given legion size of the Imperial Fists. Somethings things just are because they are, that's neither dishonest nor bad writing inherently, it is just a tool of fiction. Arda in the Legendarium is called Arda because it is (Much like Morgoth, Eru Illuvatar etc etc). Right here, we have one possible explanation given by Forgeworld.

 

The wiki source also provided the same exact text as Bladewolf... it is very up to date and has been modified to the inclusion of the new BL novel by French .

[Lord Blackwood]

Wiki's can be added to by anyone.  The excerpt you posted lacks a source.  Its just something that was put on there.  

In academics you cant use a Wiki as a source most professors and even highschool teachers will  roast you for it. 

But I am not going to sit here and argue with you  about the choice of citation you  picked  you do you bro. 

 

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Much like some have already detailed, the Imperial Fists's size can be explained by their way of war and their use on the front of the Crusade. Warhammer40k Wikia is not a very good source as it does not cite from where such information is taken (Besides the fact that it oftentimes isn't updated). Bladewolf's excerpt from Extermination is the newest and most logical explanation for the given legion size of the Imperial Fists. Somethings things just are because they are, that's neither dishonest nor bad writing inherently, it is just a tool of fiction. Arda in the Legendarium is called Arda because it is (Much like Morgoth, Eru Illuvatar etc etc). Right here, we have one possible explanation given by Forgeworld.

 

The wiki source also provided the same exact text as Bladewolf... it is very up to date and has been modified to the inclusion of the new BL novel by French .

 

 

Note that I am talking about citing. Citing =/= Source. This is something that people within and outside of academia should always remember. Yes, the wiki provides the same source, but it does not cite where the specific information is from.

 

Let's take the excerpt you provided as an example, shall we? During the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces due to their ability to rapidly redeploy to battlefields aboard Phalanx. They made use of detailed planning and as such were soon found to be supreme urban fighters and siege specialists. After several campaigns and thousands of conquered worlds being brought into the Imperium, the Emperor returned to Terra to build a capital from which He could run His new empire. He took the Imperial Fists with Him, set them up as His praetorians and charged Dorn with the construction of the Imperial Palace, something that did not go unnoticed by the other Primarchs. Perturabo flew into a rage upon hearing that Dorn thought the Imperial Palace would be proof against an assault by even as mighty siege-masters as the Iron Warriors and he unleashed a torrent of vitriol and accusations against his brother Primarch so unfounded that the onlookers from his own Legion were dumbstruck. After this outburst was reported to Dorn, the two Primarchs rarely spoke, neither Legion serving in the same campaign again. The Imperial Fists were ever at the Emperor's side and the Iron Warriors were part of Horus' vanguard.

Now, you've provided a source where you've picked this information from, but your source does not disclose where exactly this information was taken from. Where is this information comming from? Is it the Cities of Death (Supplement) source? Is it the Imperial Armour: Horus Heresy - Book One: Betrayal, pp. 80-81? I don't know. I as a reader who wishes to inform himself can't possibly be expected to take all this uncited information as true! From a purely academical point of view, this quote may very well be baloney.

 

Here is an example done right: The Imperial Fists were formed on Terra as the VIIth Legion. The Legion was one of the few that recruited entirely from their homeworld and were the only formation to have recruited from across all of Terra, including areas where other Legions claimed exclusive "Rights of Tithe." Despite recruiting from such a wide range of locations, VII Legion recruits consistently possessed a taciturn nature and were quick to action but reserved in speaking ^[45]. (As taken from the Lexicanum Imperial Fists Page).

The part is clearly cited and I am told which source is used in this case. I can go and look under the source section and find out that the correct source for this section is The Horus Heresy Book Three, pgs. 56-77.

 

Is the wiki up to date? Yes. Is it a valid source for any form of discussion? Not by any academical standard. A source that does not disclose clearly how and where information is taken from is not a legit source, considering that it could all be made up, altered or misquoted and we have no possibility of checking the original source. In the end, the wiki acts as an information agglomerator. By its very nature, it must clearly state where this information comes from.

 

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I believe that many can profit from knowing that citation=/=source and what makes a good source of information and what not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are the sources from the article I posted a link:

 

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah192/steve_turner9/sources_zpsefnj6qrr.jpg

 

You must not have actually read it that close .

[Lord Blackwood]

and can you  tell me which of those the passage you  quoted is from ? 

 

[K3nn3rs]

[Lord Blackwood]

Because Fanfiction is Fluff now boys!  

Oh its not official but it sounds cool so its obviously a legitimate answer to the question !  

By that Logic my Made up Imperial Fists Forgelord and his Tank Company hunted titans during the siege of Terra with the orphaned knights of  the Knight House I fabricated.  

All glory to the 775th Armored Company
Forgelord Godfrey Knows the Path. 

[Dagoth Ur]

Here are the sources from the article I posted a link:

 

*SNIP*

 

You must not have actually read it that close .

 

And you must have not read my post all that close, so let me repeat: The Wiki provides sources, yes just as both I and you have aknowledged, but it does not cite, which means that it does not provide where exactly the specific information is taken from. Can you tell me from which of those sources your excerpt is taken by that list alone? No you cannot, which means that the information is not cited. The article is sourced, which means that all sources are provided, but it is not explained which source is specifically cited in which instant.

 

Please do not asume people's incapability in reading comprehension, not only is it rude but in this case it shows that you yourself have neither properly read nor fully understood an argument. This is not intended as an insult and I am sorry if it sounds like it, but as someone who works with this stuff on a daily basis I believe that this needs to be pointed out in this case.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Anything I have posted as a reference I have read the source and know it is canon not fanboi fluff. :D

[Lord Blackwood]

Anything I have posted as a reference I have read the source and know it is canon not fanboi fluff.

So tell me where the passage you quoted is from , provide for me the source.

[Dagoth Ur]

Anything I have posted as a reference I have read the source and know it is canon not fanboi fluff.

And that's fine if you know it, but other people might not and have no chance to look it up specifically if they go with the wiki. The wiki is an unreliable source for the reasons detailed above if we are discussing canon material. God knows I have used the wiki a dozen times for inspiration! But using the wiki as a reference for actually discussing canon issues is just not feasible considering that the reader cannot distinguish what is sourced from where and what is canon and what is not. It is impossible to tell where fanfic begins and ends for the usual reader that is not familiar with the source material used.

[Marshal Rohr]

The passage Black Orange quoted is a paraphrasing of the Index Astartes for Fists and Templars and if I'm right, there is some Codex BT in there, too with a smattering of the designers notes article from White Dwarf, IIRC.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We can disavow most anything if we try hard enough.

[Lord Blackwood]

The passage Black Orange quoted is a paraphrasing of the Index Astartes for Fists and Templars and if I'm right, there is some Codex BT in there, too with a smattering of the designers notes article from White Dwarf, IIRC.

Excellent ,  Thank you  for that. 

 

Now that we know that it is a paraphrased statement from a group of sources we know that it is something fabricated by a writer based on the older fluff. 

 

I.E.  Drawn from official sources ( Not the exact text mind you  but pieces that have been interpreted by the person who contributed to the wiki article.)   that predate the current way the HH is being presented to us. 

 

Knowing that  I would argue that  the passage quoted from  Book 3 of the HH Series  (which as we all know has adjusted and changed much of how the HH was initially considered to have gone down)  Is not only more recent but more inline with the current fluff. 

 

While I do not argue that it invalidates the statement  quoted by  Black Orange  I would argue that it supersedes it as far as this question  of cannon is concerned. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The Wiki isn't a bad place to go for cursory info, it's just a bad source to directly refute another's claim because it's a content community that has a poor track record with fanfic moderation. Lexicanum on the other hand is frequently out of date because of its citation requirements before approval. Ive got my copy of Extermination with me, Black Orange, so I'll give it a read through in a bit to find the passage you're referencing.

 

Edit: @Bladewolf- the way it was recently described is that newer fluff changes older fluff, but uncontradicted older fluff isn't invalidated in its entirety. The example of the Ultramarines military school from their Index Astartes was used as an example. Because it wasn't directly contradicted in the Ultras FW background it could still exist, but the Ultras numbers and size of Ultramar has changed, so that supersedes the Index Astartes fluff.

[Dagoth Ur]

The passage Black Orange quoted is a paraphrasing of the Index Astartes for Fists and Templars and if I'm right, there is some Codex BT in there, too with a smattering of the designers notes article from White Dwarf, IIRC.

Thanks for that!

We can disavow most anything if we try hard enough.

It's not about disavowal of things, it's about using a credible source to answer a posed question/prove a thesis/further a discussion. We can have an actual discussion founded upon transparent data and answer OP's questions by providing clear information which he/she can backcheck to their heart's delight, if we try hard enough that is.

Edit: Marshal Rohr's post(Nr. 40) is the best way to put it when it comes to both the Wiki's and Lexicanum's natures as sources. The best guideline, usually, is to always stick to the actual material and not solely rely on an information aggregator.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me sites like wiki and Lexicanum are awesome tools. It just not practical for most people to have all the sources directly at hand.

[Marshal Rohr]

"...while the Great Crusade pushed forward, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces. Able to deploy reliably where and when required, the Imperial Fists struck the decisive blow in many battles."

 

Index Astartes Vol. II: Emperor's Fist, pg. 12

Pete Haines, 2003

(Original Article Published in WD Beforehand)

 

Black Orange, here is the exact phrasing of the older Index Astartes article. Nothing said here is contradicted by the newer fluff Bladewolf cited previously, so I think we can all agree that A.) per Extermination, the Imperial Fists were at the forefront of the Great Crusade, often at the Emperor's own command; and B.) per the Index Astartes article that was not directly changed or contradicted, the way they were used in these battles was to be held back until a significant commitment to a breakthrough was needed. 

 

Index Astartes Black Templars, Codex: Black Templars, and White Dwarf designer's notes make no mention of this topic. 

[Dagoth Ur]

To me sites like wiki and Lexicanum are awesome tools. It just not practical for most people to have all the sources directly at hand.

 

I agree, which is why I said that it is/would be the best guideline, which asumes an ideal state anyways. I myself use lexicanum if I don't have any stuff at hand and try to find excerpts of information that I can review. I also use the wiki, but am more cautious with taking it as canon or granted as I don't know if it takes data from one source, an amalgamation of several or whatever.

Amazing tools, but one should know how to properly use and evaluate them in different contexts.

[Marshal Rohr]

Also, never be afraid to start a new topic asking for clarification or citation! We used to do it all the time before 'Loose Canon' was written. Even had a whole subsection of the forum dedicated to trying streamline fluff into comprehensive articles. I had a version for Black Templars, and Vash did ones for every known space marine chapter. 

[Lord Blackwood]

Stubbornly pressing forward with something as fact  when you cant back it up is the thing that gets me.  

It is nice of Marshal Rohr to do the legwork for you. 

Assuming we go back to the topic at hand and the question of the Imperial Fists size.  

Given the Evidence provided  

Up until the Triumph at Ullanor they were on the Bleeding Edge of the Crusade 
Afterward according to the Index Article they Were considered a Reserve Force  

Though in Extermination  Page 64 
The rough estimate of 100,000   marines is  given  " At the time of their withdrawal to Terra. " 

So  After Ullanor they were siting on roughly 100,000  dudes. 

Meaning the fact that they became a reserve force afterward is irrelevant to the question being posed. 

The most appropriate Answer from the most recent Fluff Example would be that they were on the bleeding edge of the Crusade

If we include the Recent Novel Praetorian of Dorn  Then we can also draw from the statements that the  Conversion Process for  the Imperial Fists was particularly rough. 
Further Still we can look to the Crimson Fist  Audio Drama  And look at the process where aspirants to even be considered from Inwit needed to go through a process similar to the Blooding that the Space Wolves go through which obvious was pretty dangerous. 

So The Short Answer to your question is that the Imperial Fists were kicking dicks in at the forefront of the crusade so the grinding war kept them at around 100,000 guys  ( or possibly a bit higher than that  when you factor in casualties at Ullanor )  

[Marshal Rohr]

The context of the strategic reserve quote was 'after their early successes', too. It wasn't just after Ullanor. They had been kicking dicks since day one. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thank you Marshal - the Emperor protects. <3

 

And BW some of us work during the day and cannot being conducting fluff research until we retire home for the evening .

[Lord Blackwood]

So then maybe some of us should not be bullheaded about claiming X  as fact when they don't have time to do that research ? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I read it late last night then fell asleep. Like I said I find wiki and Lexicanum to generally speaking be great resources.