2500 Pt Coils List, need some advice please

[sturguard]

Hey folks,

So after my long winded post a few days ago trying out the recon list- I have decided to switch gears, hopefully I can get some experienced advice.

 

Alpharius                                                                                                                             

Dynat                                                                                                                                    

 

Elites

Tyrant Siege Terminator Squad (5), 1 chainfist                                                    

2 Laser Destroyer Batteries                                                                                         

2 Laser Destroyer Batteries                                                                                         

Contemptor Mortis- Twin Kheres Assault Cannons                                           

 

Troops

10 Tactical Marines, Sgt w/Dagger, Artificer Armor, MB, Rhino                    

10 Tactical Marines, Sgt w/Dagger, Artificer Armor, MB, Rhino                    

10 Assault Marines, Sgt, w/Dagger, Artificer Armor, Pfist, Combat Shield               

 

Fast Attack

Javelin w/Melta, HK Missile                                                                                         

Javelin w/Melta, HK Missile                                                                                         

8 Seekers                                                                                                                            

Land Raider Proteus w/Array, Ceramite                                                                                                                                                  

2488       

 

So I have around 12 pts left to manage. Thoughts on my build-

Alpharius will be placed with the Tyrants. They will be placed as close as I can get to the enemy and move forward firing. He is going to attempt to tank as much of the incoming fire as possible. The tyrants will be BS5 and reroll 1's. Dynat will most likely infiltrate with the laser destroyers. He will give them bs 5 for a turn before joining another unit and responding to the enemy. I will need to drop tanks as quickly as possible and making everyone walking. The Contemptor is my one defense against fliers. I know its not alot, but any heavy flier list/drop pod list should have issues bringing their reserves in effectively as they will be at -2 to reserve rolls.  One area I feel a bit vulnerable is elite troops. I could make the assault squad another tac squad and save a few points and drop both landspeeders and create a support squad with plasma. Either that or I could drop the Proteus and really add a hard hitting squad and let enemy reserves cone in on a 4+ (instead of 5+). Granted some of the choices that went into this army are models I have and as I am waiting for inferno to possibly add 2 more armies, I am looking to keep this army mainly infantry (as I have plenty of mk4 kits). Anyways, where could I tweak this? Do you guys like the assault squad or should I just change it to a tactical squad? 

 

Thanks!

[Withershadow]

Dynat and Alpharius is too much, IMO, you're spending 620 points on force multipliers and can't even use Dynat's warlord trait.

 

I would take a Siege Breaker instead of Dynat who can go with the Siege Tyrants (thus granting them tank hunter), and saves enough points to buy the quad mortars phosphex rounds for killing infantry (oh, forgot to mention, swap the laser destroyers for quad mortars! :D).

 

Please note if you use Mutable Tactic: Infiltrate, you cannot join any units with Alpharius, because he does not have Infiltrate for some reason.

 

I'd find the points for some Vexillas.

[sturguard]

Thanks for the response.

 

Dynat does add a few things to the list which you can take advantage of-

1. The whole list is built on going first, which should happen more than 80% of the time. You have a rerolled 4+ to sieze (75%) and that doesnt include those times when you win the roll to go first (though then 16% of those times your opponent should sieze- in any event the chance to go first has to be above 80% in total).

 

So when you go first and infiltrate the enemy is going to be in their deployment zone. Getting +1 on the armor penetration rolls is big. Now combine that with the quad lasers being ap 1 and you blow up vehicles on a 3+.

 

Next, Dynat gives a unit within 6 inches of him bs 5- now combine that with preferred enemy and essentially you shouldnt miss many shots at all.

Finally having access to a phosphex bomb is nice.

 

I am going to place Alpharius with the Terminators. They wont infiltrate but merely setup right on the boundary and walk forward. Alpharius will tank for the sieze terminators as much as he cant before moving on from them.

 

I think the list needs the quad lasers. Is Phosphex great, yes. But I have to take 3 troop squads that really have one role, kill enemy infantry. On the other hand I dont have much anti tank, so what I have needs to work. The Tyrants can strip some HPs as can the land speeders but I need to count on the lasers to blow stuff up here and there too.

 

Contemptor can also strip as few hps from tanks or kill infantry if there are no enemy fliers to deal with.

[Withershadow]

They must Infiltrate because Coils requires a dedicated transport or deep strike or Infiltrate. They can do none of those things if you pick a different tactic.

 

Quad mortars with shatter are a million times more effective than laser Destroyers vs vehicles.

 

Alpharius is not that great a tank when T4, just keep that in mind.

[Harrowmaster]

Alpharius is probably best when right in the thick of the fighting, he'll happily mice infantry and anyone without EW, as he can't infiltrate you might want to consider using One of Many to hide him somewhere to confuse your opponent.

[sturguard]

Withershadow-

 

Okay you are definitely right (after a playtest last night)- Dynat can go, Siege Breaker in.

Coils says- Infantry Squads- how would Alpharius be considered an infantry squad? Technically he is a Lord of War/HQ correct? But this is something I need to address.

 

Alpharius worked perfectly (if not illegally) in with the Tyrants. He absorbed 4 wounds right off the bat (yes I failed 4 out of 7) that otherwise would have seen the tyrant squad go up in a cloud of smoke. I am not very excited about the One of Many rule. Is it a cool rule, yes, but I dont think it confuses anyone, especially in my list. Would you really want Alpharius in a unit of tac marines? I wouldnt he could easily be shot off the board there as they have no resiliency. He cant go with the assault marines. He could go with the Seekers, but again, they are easy to kill. I think the perfect spot for him is tanking wounds and helping the Tyrant stay alive. Last night he tanked 4 wounds for the Tyrants, then assaulted (with them) a 5 man terminator squad (where I lost a terminator but destroyed the squad), then the squad took casualties in the shooting phase and I lose another 2 terminators, the next turn I was assaulted by 15 assault marines and a special character, in two turns (with help from a Contemptor) he killed the SC and forced the 4 remaining marines to flee. Now solo (all of the terminators were dead) he ran up and blew up a land raider with his spear- then we called the game. So those 700 pts accounted for a terminator squad, a spartan assault tank, 11 assault type marines, and a SC- so he made his points back and still had 2 wounds left. 

 

In my opinion you dont want to make Alpharius even more expensive by killing a model for him to appear and you definitely dont want to give up his preferred enemey rule even for a turn. At least that is coming from a guy who rolls about 30% 1's. Rerolling those 1's definitely helped me out.

[Harrowmaster]

In your list, perhaps he's not best served using one of many, though with several large blobs it's funny to watch. 10 man tacticals are resilient enough (even better with 20 men and an apothecary) though each to their own

[Withershadow]

Alpharius is not an infantry squad, but the Siege Tyrants are. You cannot grant them deep strike with Dynat since Dynat is not the warlord if Alpharius is present.

 

So you are forced in this list to choose Mutable Tactics: Infiltrate, in order for the Siege Tyrants to qualify to be included in the Rite. If they have Infiltrate, Alpharius can't join them except after the game has started.

[sturguard]

Withershadow-

 

So if the terminators have infiltrate and dont choose to use it and deploy in my starting deployment zone Alpharius couldnt join them? That seems odd.

[Withershadow]

Maybe odd, but it's the rules.  Not only is that restriction unequivocal in the rulebook, but people questioned it anyway and the now official FAQ confirms that Independent Characters without Infiltrate can NEVER join a a unit with Infiltrate.

 

Mechanically, it's because Infiltrators do not get the option to "not use it".  They MUST be deployed after everybody else, which is why Alpharius cannot join them because he would have been already deployed by that point.

[Dark Serpentine]

Maybe take out two of the Seekers, place Alpharius with them. They can't infiltrate, but can still scout 12" in the Proteus.

[sturguard]

Fair enough. However, again it is very easy for Alpharius to join the terminators. Alpharius sets up. Terminators infiltrate into my deployment zone within 2 inches of Alpharius. Turn 1 begins the unit is joined. Its at that point that you want him with the squad anyways right as in most situations you should be going first so he can still tank for the tyrants and give them +1 BS and rerolling 1's.

 

Dark Serpentine, I had thought of that, but again in my opinion if you are taking a 300 pt squad of terminators with Alpharius costing 400 himself - I think the best role he can serve early on is as a tank. The game I played last week I failed 4 of my first 7 saves, so Alpharius lost 4 wounds by turn 2.  At that point I had to be a bit more careful with him, but he still survived the game and if he hadnt been tanking the tyrants, I would have lost the squad with those rolls.

 

In the end though, I am not sure the list is my kind of list. So I kind of went back to the drawing board. I really dislike the makeup of the coils list because of two things- A. you are kind of forced to take Infiltrate as your mutable. Well your army isnt very mutable if you are always taking one thing and B. I dont like Alpha tacticals or even the troop choices. I think Vets are hands down better any day of the week and they really dont cost much more especially for their utility.

 

So I have been fooling around with the headhunter Leviathal. Now, headhunters arent great, true and most likely I will just take 5 with a heavy bolter and artificer armor on the sgt, but in taking those 2 squads, I am spending less on mandatory troops choices as I would in taking the 3 for Coils, even bare bones, so I give myself more points on what  I want.

 

Next, Alpharius with Coils gives you a 75% chance to seize. I cant beat that, but the HH Leviathal does allow you to reroll going first (so two rolls to your opponents 1- any math guy know what your chances are of winning that roll?) also if I take Skorr as my warlord, I can take the +1 to seize. So I would think between those two options (rerolling to see if I go first and seizing on a 5+) I should go first alot. If going first isnt a big deal and my opponent has alot of reserves, I instead take the warlord trait where your opponent has -1, add that to the Proteus -1 to enemy reserves and -2 means most opponents reserves will come in hodge podge. If the enemy has alot of tanks and I want to infiltrate, great, Ill take the warlord trait, infiltrate 3 units and then take tank hunter as my mutable.

 

Honestly this gives you a ton of tactical options before the game starts. Instead of the Tyrants, I can take 10 normal terminators which will count as scoring with 2 plasmablasters and some combis and I can infiltrate them as a disrupting force.

 

I dont know what do you guys think?

[Withershadow]

It's a big waste of Alpharius, IMO, considering how much havoc he can cause in enemy lines, but whatever floats your boat. I'd almost say you're better off fielding him in a dreadclaw.

 

Headhunter Leviathal looks so terrible to me, any Rites that give up additional VPs on top of Martial Pride is just asking for it, and then having to keep all your heavy support in reserve with no reserve manipulation options available is really rough. All to take the WORST special unit in the game as your troops. 5 of those idiots cost as much as a tooled up tactical squad. The tactical squad will kick their ass any day of the week through sheer numbers.

 

Coils is a great Rite, I just don't know if Alpharius is the best guy to run it. Between his points, the mandatory HQ, and three troop choices, you're out of points for the really nasty stuff that wants preferred enemy. I mean, 5 tyrants? Big whoop.  Either Skorr or Dynat make for better leaders for this Rite, IMO. Skorr has his flexible Warlord trait that can fulfill requirements, Dynat can give a key unit (like those Tyrants) deep strike and can pick whatever mutable tactic you want.

 

If you want to run Alphy, I honestly would look at Primarch's Chosen. You will have to field more Astartes than not, but you want to do that anyway for Preferred Enemy anyway, and you don't have to waste any other HQ points, and you can take terminators and/or veterans as your troop choice without the drawback of Pride of the Legion giving up 2 VPs.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

 

If you want to run Alphy, I honestly would look at Primarch's Chosen. You will have to field more Astartes than not, but you want to do that anyway for Preferred Enemy anyway, and you don't have to waste any other HQ points, and you can take terminators and/or veterans as your troop choice without the drawback of Pride of the Legion giving up 2 VPs.

 

This.

[sturguard]

Withershadow-

Thanks for the response, I enjoy bouncing ideas of you.

 

To begin with, I think Coils is the only Rite of War that makes Alpharius worth it (unless you are playing extremely high point games). The mechanics of 30k/40- the I go, you go, really lend themselves to one big advantage that GW has tried to mitigate over the years with countless rules, but it still better to remove your opponents models before he gets to shoot with them. Probably one of the most potent combinations is making your opponent setup first, then placing your models and going first. Alpharius and Coils make that almost a certainty (Well in roughly 80-some percent of the games when you factor in rolling to go first or seizing). You simply cant duplicate that with any other combination of Rite or Warlord.

 

Yes, you pay a premium for Alpharius. Let's say you and I play a 2500 vs 2000 pt battle, if I am playing the 2000 pt list, I want to make sure when its your turn you don't have 2500 pts at your disposal anymore. In fact if I can shave that down to 2000 vs 2000 thats a win. In my opinion that is what you are trying to do in this situation. In putting Alpharius with the Tyrants, I am ensuring they dont just get turn 1 with 10 missiles, they get turn 2 and possibly turn 3 firing those 10 missiles each time. If my opponent tries to ignore them, Alpharius is getting closer to their lines and those 10 missiles a turn are adding up. And maybe you are right, maybe I take 7 instead of 5. 14 missiles, with BS5, preferred enemy and tank hunter glance out a Land Raider a turn. 

 

Now can you as the defender try to mitigate the damage? Yes, you can castle up (fine, everything in the list- except Alpharius has infiltrate so I get angles to shoot). You can put units in reserve (again, that's fine, you are rolling reserves at -2 so most your units will come in staggered which makes it easier to destroy them with less units). 

 

Even though he starts in his deployment, its not like Alpharius cant be charging the enemy on turn 3- especially if you put him right on the fringe. Technically you can put the tyrants infiltrated in 6 inches, then use Alpharius' scout move to catch up with them. 

 

To me that is the advantage AL has over the others. They dont have great units. They dont have bonuses to wound, or bonus attacks - they have the consistent ability to go first and kill a portion of the enemy without taking loses and infiltrate army wide ensures you can get the angles you need to put your guns to work.

 

Just curious- what units do you define as the good stuff that really takes advantage of PE?

 

Thanks

[Withershadow]

Quad mortars, sniper Veterans, plasma or volkite support squads, terminators with combi weapons, heavy support jetbikes, seekers, outriders etc.

 

Skorr can get a rerollable 5+ to seize if it's that important. The basic Coils bonus already gives you better odds than most with +1 to go first or reroll seizing initiative, that's already a 33% chance to seize after something like a 70% chance to get first turn.

 

If you want Coils and Alpharius, how about running him in a Dreadclaw with a command squad?

 

So start with something like

 

Siege Breaker ~140

Apothecary with armor and sword -65

Elites: Tyrants ~400

Troops: 3x tactical squads in rhinos ~555-600

Fast Attack: Dreadclaw - 115

LOW: Alpharius - 415

5x Command Squad with combat shields/sabers (stolen from World Eater forum) - 155

 

That's ~1850 points or so by my rough math, leaving you 650 for say some phosphex quad mortars and whatever else you want. You're forced to Infiltrate, but it's a very strong rule for all of these units. Tac squads can just dice stuff to death with preferred enemy rerolls, so cheap numbers also work in your favor here. Siege Breaker unlocks phosphex and gives siege tyrants tankhunter.

 

The single claw is pretty vulnerable but can still jink defensively and any shots going to it aren't killing your other stuff. Just make sure to deploy far enough to not get intercepted or charged, but close enough that he can get in engagement range next turn even if it's shot down.

 

Alpharius can tank for the command squad at range, now with FNP, and in melee they are as tough as tartaros terminators, taking annoying challenges and fishing for rends at I5 with preferred enemy, while Alpharius eats the rest of the enemy unit.

[sturguard]

Withershadow,

I like the concept, although the one thing about the command squad is they just dont shoot, so the squad isnt really scary unless it gets into combat and once again, Alpharius is what makes it scary. I watched a Youtube battle report with Iron Warriors and the dude did the same thing with Perturabo- he stuck him in front of his siege Tyrants and tanked for them as he made his way across the board. Now if I remove Alpharius from the Tyrants he needs to be in something that becomes more threatening than the Tyrants, so they wont wither under small arms fire.

 

Now instead of a drop pod, using my original list you could boot the Seekers (which really didnt do much last game) and instead put the command squad in the Land Raider with Alpharius. Now it gets interesting there, I could simply keep a few of the command squad cheap at 15 pts so the squad would have infiltrate and scout- so the command squad could infiltrate the Land Raider then scout it forward. The Command Squad could then pop out the back side of the LR (the land raider could pop smoke) and use it for cover then turn 2 Alpharius replaces one of them.

 

What do you think about that? 

[sturguard]

Again though I will reiterate, the biggest flaw with the Games Workshop universe of games is the I go, you go mechanic, especially as units get more and powerful (which I am not a fan of). As firepower gets more deadly and units get bigger and bigger and more units become obsolete, shooting your opponent first and eliminating 300-400 points of their army is critical for success. Heck I watched a Front Line Gaming battle report online yesterday and an Iron Warriors army pretty much ended the game on turn 1. I think the Iron Warriors killed 3-4 of his special CML termies (so thats 200 plus points gone), a contemptor (another 175) and almost a full squad of tacs (125) - and thats in 2000 pts. You dont lose 500 pts out of 2000 on turn 1 and recover, I dont care what kind of tactical genius you are.

 

The fact that in most games as an Alpha Legion player you can consistently go first and set up firing lanes through infiltrate is huge. Again, it isnt flawless, drop pod armies can disrupt this, heavy flier lists will be difficult to deal with, some games you are just going to deal with poor dice rolls (it seems like every game for me) and dealing with another Primarch could be hard as well but from the perspective of fighting a shooty list, Alpha Legion definitely has the tools to blunt their shooting before their turn starts.

[Withershadow]

That's why my favorite combo is using Skorr for infiltrate and the Scout mutable tactic. So coils helps me get first turn, but I still get to deploy second, then after the seize roll I can redeploy even more aggressively or defensively as the situation warrants. The battle is always on my terms. Drop pods are an issue, so augury bubbles are important.

[sturguard]

Thats an idea I didnt think of with the scout and infiltrate tactic. The only issue is Skorr can only give 3 units infiltrate.

[Withershadow]

How many units do you really need to have infiltrate? The ones in vehicles already qualify for the Rite, as do the ones who can deep strike.

 

Technically since he gains Infiltrate too, Master of Ambush lets you grant Infiltrate to three units and outflank a fourth.

[sturguard]

Withershadow-

This is the list I brought tonight and it worked very well-

 

Alpharius

Siege Breaker in AA

 

10 Terminators- 2 plasmablasters, chainfist (Alpharius appeared in this squad turn 2- for 3 plasmablasters)

5 Tyrant Siege Terminators w/1 chainfist

3 Laser Destroyer Batteries

2 Sunder Shell Rapier Batteries

 

3x10 Tacticals, Sgt with AA, metlabomb, power dagger, Rhino w/Multimelta

 

Lightning with 4 Kraken Penetrator missiles, tank hunter, strafing

 

Deredeo w/Pavise

 

So the Tyrants were joined by the Siege Breaker and formed a line in front of the Deredeo thus increasing their invul to a 3+. The rapiers infiltrated along the board edges to get side shots on armor, the 10 terminators infiltrated right into the teeth of the army, 2 rhinos infiltrated while loaded to get their melta shots off, the third tactical infiltrated 18 inches in front of an enemy terminator squad to fury (I had first turn). Turn 1 I peeled 2 Hps off a vindicator and stunned it, dropped a mortis contemptor, and took 2 hps off a whirlwind scorpius, and killed 3 terminators. Again, I think  I disabled him enough to where it was just an uphill battle for him at that point.

 

Now- I am thinking of this-

Dropping Alpharius and the Siege Breaker and adding Skorr and a Leviathan dread in a pod. Ill still infiltrate the 2 rapier batteries and the 10 man squad of termies but I will take the mutable of tank hunter, this way the Tyrants, the rapiers, and even the melta shots on the rhinos will have tank hunter and I still will be able to get the side shots I need on armor with infiltrating. Ill also have another hard target in the enemies deployment on turn 1 (so the leviathan, and the 10 man squad of termies will really put pressure on the enemy. Maybe Ill switch some points around so I can take the sabotuer as well, just to add a bit more pressure.

 

What do you think? The only problem with Skorr and not Alpharius is the odds of going first or stealing the initiative is not very good so alot of games I would go second.

[Dark Serpentine]

Liking this thread, giving me some ideas for my own XXth list. Although you mention above about tank hunter mutable tactic on the Rhinos multi-Melta. I'm might be wrong, but does mutable tactics only confer to units with the 'Legion Astartes' rule, therefore the rhino wouldn't benefit from the mutable tactics? Dedicated transports gain infiltrate from the unit inside but does it also gain the tank hunter rule?

[Harrowmaster]

Mutuable tactics only affects models with LA and you can only pick one, half your units can't have tank hunter while the other half have infiltrate.

 

It must be one or the other.

 

Plus in coils infantry must have a transport, deepstrike or infiltrate

[sturguard]

Yep, my bad I missed that, the rhinos would not have the tank hunter.