Argel Tal Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Holà, Just need some advice on this list. I wanted to try the new Serrated ROW with the models I own using its high mobility with pods and the low restriction on tanks. The first pod to land will be either the seekers or the vets to use the nuncio vox to avoid scatter for the other pods and use it for the quad mortar. Zardu goes with the slaves in the dreadclaw to drop T1 with the first wave with the GV unit. The centu can go either with the support guys or with the seekers to get some psy shriek and prey for invis. The rest of the line stay back shooting from afar. The battle tank can try to aim the enemy flyers and the venator is here to negate enemy super heavies. Zardu will pick the summoning and cursed earth. Will be glad to get some feedbacks on this + HQ (375pts) + ········Legion Centurion (100pts) [Artificer Armour, Burning Lore, Refractor Field] ········Zardu Layak (275pts) [Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves, Warlord] + Elites (580pts) + ········Apothecarion Detachment (55pts) ············Legion Apothecary ················Additional Wargear [Artificer Armour, Chainsword/Combat Blade] (to avoid some gets hot rolls) ········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell] ········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell] ········Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (245pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Veteran Tactics: Marksmen] ············Additional Wargear [2x Meltagun, Nuncio-vox] ············Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Chainsword/Combat Blade] + Troops (735pts) + ········Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren (260pts) [4x Dark Brethren, Legion Drop Pod] ············Dark Martyr [Artificer Armour, Power Fist] ········Legion Tactical Support Squad (250pts) [5x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns, Legion Drop Pod] ············Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour] ········The Ashen Circle (225pts) [Dark Channelling, 4x Incendiary] ············Iconoclast [Artificer Armour, Phosphex Bombs, Power Axe] + Fast Attack (405pts) + ········Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (115pts) ········Legion Seeker Squad (290pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 8x Legion Seeker Space Marines, Nuncio-Vox] ············Legion Strike Leader [Artificer Armour] + Heavy Support (410pts) + ········Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (210pts) [Dozer Blade, Lascannons] ········Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (200pts) [Dozer Blade, Combi Bolter] (combi to negate the weapon destroy result) + Legion + ········Legiones Astartes [ XVII: Word Bearers, Traitor] ········Rite of War [Last of the Serrated Sun] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okonomiyakimarine Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 i fear your idea for this list cannot work like this, because all infantry has to drop. technically not legal to not drop the support and the ashen circle afaik. you could transport infantry in a flyer. ashen circle is more fun when deep striked anyway (burning descent rule, LAICL p.75). there is a discussion on this issue in this thread a few pages back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Tal Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 My bad, I just forgot the pod for the support guys :D concerning the Ashen Circle my mates are ok with this especially for such a bad unit ah ah. They almost never get their points back: too expensive, not enough punch in mele and str3 flamer is just for the fun... I edited my mistake but now I'm not sure that the apothecary is worth it, is ot better to spend some points on one more guy instead of the apo or to keep it as it is with only 6 guys and the apo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 I belive that you can take Jump units in Last of the Serrated Sun Rite of War. The "jump" rule ONLY says that "Jump units share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules and those of their base type" - not that they share TWO classifications (aka Unit types) - and the ROW cares only about unit type (classification) - which in case of Ashen Circle is 'Jump infantry' and not 'Infantry'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Tal Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I belive that you can take Jump units in Last of the Serrated Sun Rite of War. The "jump" rule ONLY says that "Jump units share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules and those of their base type" - not that they share TWO classifications (aka Unit types) - and the ROW cares only about unit type (classification) - which in case of Ashen Circle is 'Jump infantry' and not 'Infantry'. FW wording is always such a joke... Any case my mates will allow me to use them as part of my army for the fluff side with Zardu. I still don't know about the apothecary if I should take him or swap him for another plasma guy. Do you have some recommendation about this guys ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erren Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 I'm also going to have to disagree with you that Rapiers aren't restricted by the Rite limitations. They're clearly labeled as two different unit types (artillery and infantry) and any other unit that had two types (say, MC and infantry for a praevian and castellax) would need to obey all restriction on both types. But if this is what you and your friends have decided, then by all means go for it. I won't belabor the point as I certainly agree the rules could easily be written more clearly. I don't think the Apothecary is worth it. He's 55 points as you have him, and another plasma gunner would cost 35 points. Instead of him, you could add 2 plasma gunners and then give your sergeant a bolter and augury scanner. You'd still have one 2+ model up front to tank shots, but the unit would have 2 extra shots per turn and have an extra wound. The apothecary will save a wound once per 54 shots taken (54 shots, 9 gets hot, 3 failed armor saves, 1 successful FNP), plus whatever help he gives to surviving retaliatory fire (maybe some, maybe nothing if you're getting hit by a medusa). It'd be nice to get a melee upgrade on the centurion, like a powerfist. Maybe take the points from the venator's combibolter (which saves you from 1/12 penetrating hits that take off one of your first 2 hull points). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 The Ashen Circle is not allowed in this Rite and it has nothing to do with Infantry or Jump Infantry (they are both). It's just you are required to deploy by pod, teleportation (so terminators), or a flier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 The Ashen Circle is not allowed in this Rite and it has nothing to do with Infantry or Jump Infantry (they are both). It's just you are required to deploy by pod, teleportation (so terminators), or a flier. I have to disagree, because the limitation is everything about them being infantry, because this limitation applies ONLY to 'Infantry' units. Not to "units that follow infantry rules". Jump infantry is a separate unit classification from Infantry units - but follow all rules (for moving, shoting, saves, etc.) for Infantry and Jump units (mostly moving). I'm also going to have to disagree with you that Rapiers aren't restricted by the Rite limitations. They're clearly labeled as two different unit types (artillery and infantry) and any other unit that had two types (say, MC and infantry for a praevian and castellax) would need to obey all restriction on both types. As above - Rapiers are Artilery UNITS, thus not restricted exactly because they are not 'Infantry units'. It doesn't matter that they consist of Infantry models. Praevian is dissalowed because he is a separate unit selection (infantry hq) that HAS to join MCs and thus cannot be legally deployed. Thats a different matter althougheter. If you could put MC into drop pods he could've been taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 That is a bogus argument. The rulebook is crystal clear that Jump Infantry is also Infantry. Jump is not a classification, it's a modifier of the other unit type. Jump Infantry is still Infantry who also have the Jump subtype. The artillery unit however is just that, artillery, so it doesn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 That is a bogus argument. The rulebook is crystal clear that Jump Infantry is also Infantry. Jump is not a classification, it's a modifier of the other unit type. Jump Infantry is still Infantry who also have the Jump subtype. The artillery unit however is just that, artillery, so it doesn't care. I have the Rulebook in front of me. Let me quote the important part (in my humble opinion) for you. An excerpt from the Jump units paragraph 1 (bold):"Unlike most other unit type categories, 'Jump' is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category - commonly Infantry (...). Jump units therfore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type.(..)"As I do understand it, this means that there is no unit with classification Jump (only) and that it is always Jump X, X being another units classification name (Jump infantry, Jump Monstrous Creature, etc.) and that Jump X follows all rules (mentioned in the rulebook) for those two unit types. Not that Jump units have TWO unit type categories (Jump Infantry and Infantry) because this would have no sense in game terms (however there is a precedent with Caestus Ram Tank-Flier). There is no 'only' Jump units means that Jump is 'kind of' prefix in grammar sense. I'm not saying that there is only one right way to interpret it, but it is how I (and every person I discussed this with) understand. But what do I know, the rules are written badly, they should hire a professional lawyer to write them :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 So you quoted the relevant parts. Jump Infantry is Infantry first. All rules apply, including the restriction on deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Tal Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 And I don't really get why they put a specification on "teleporting" infantry. The only guys that can do it with the WB are the termies but they are not able to do it without the specific ROW... Kind of silly.And for the support squad I don't undertsand why I should swap a support weapon for a bolter :( sorry for the silly question... And the apo I felt was nice to prevent some gets hot rolls as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 So you quoted the relevant parts. Jump Infantry is Infantry first. All rules apply, including the restriction on deployment.Well... I guess we have to agree to disagree. For me it is clear that 'follow' rules for infantry =/= is an infantry unit type (and follow restrictions for units with Infantry type.) Back to the main topic. Yes I would drop the Aphotecary for another model (or two). He won't be effective in such a small squad and you better invest points in more bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck... just saying. "Jump" is not a unit classification as you quoted, their core type is Infantry. So they are infantry first and foremost. But whatever, it's not particularly important in this case. It's probably most relevant for Raven Guard, whether they get super duper assault marines with all the USRs as they are both Infantry and Jump Infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erren Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 And I don't really get why they put a specification on "teleporting" infantry. The only guys that can do it with the WB are the termies but they are not able to do it without the specific ROW... Kind of silly. And for the support squad I don't undertsand why I should swap a support weapon for a bolter :( sorry for the silly question... And the apo I felt was nice to prevent some gets hot rolls as well. I was trying to stay points neutral, or close to it. My memory was off as I forgot that Plasma TSS marines are 30 ppm. Basically I was advocating the sergeant without the Plasma gun because he's 15 points cheaper. But it's wrong compared to the 55-point apothecary. 6-man plasma tactical support squad + apothecary + transport = 305 in your OP 8-man plasma tactical support squad (sergeant with AA/plasma) + transport = 310k Having 4 more shots and one more wound will be better than occasionally saving one wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Tal Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 I was trying to stay points neutral, or close to it. My memory was off as I forgot that Plasma TSS marines are 30 ppm. Basically I was advocating the sergeant without the Plasma gun because he's 15 points cheaper. But it's wrong compared to the 55-point apothecary. 6-man plasma tactical support squad + apothecary + transport = 305 in your OP 8-man plasma tactical support squad (sergeant with AA/plasma) + transport = 310k Having 4 more shots and one more wound will be better than occasionally saving one wound. Ah ok, I didn't see that you could spare the points by taking the bol and scanner cause it says that you can take it instead of the special weapon for free which for me meant that you had to pay for the weapon and then swap it. So I have something like this: + HQ (375pts) + ········Legion Centurion (100pts) [Artificer Armour, Burning Lore, Refractor Field] ········Zardu Layak (275pts) [Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves, Warlord] + Elites (525pts) + ········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell] ········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell] ········Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (245pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Veteran Tactics: Marksmen] ············Additional Wargear [2x Meltagun, Nuncio-vox] ············Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Chainsword/Combat Blade] + Troops (795pts) + ········Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren (260pts) [4x Dark Brethren, Legion Drop Pod] ············Dark Martyr [Artificer Armour, Power Fist] ········Legion Tactical Support Squad (310pts) [7x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns, Legion Drop Pod] ············Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour] ········The Ashen Circle (225pts) [Dark Channelling, 4x Incendiary] ············Iconoclast [Artificer Armour, Phosphex Bombs, Power Axe] + Fast Attack (405pts) + ········Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (115pts) ········Legion Seeker Squad (290pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 8x Legion Seeker Space Marines, Nuncio-Vox] ············Legion Strike Leader [Artificer Armour] + Heavy Support (400pts) + ········Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (210pts) [Dozer Blade, Lascannons] ········Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (190pts) + Legion + ········Legiones Astartes [ XVII: Word Bearers, Traitor] ········Rite of War [Last of the Serrated Sun] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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