Best swordsmen-Legion

[bluntblade]

It wasn't so much that Jubal was amazing so much as he fought in a looser manner than Sigismund expected.

 

I think the Scars are on a tier between the EC/DA and the IF/SW. They don't specialise as ruthlessly as the latter, but do more melee than many of their cousins.

 

But I'd add that the Brotherhood of the Moon vs Cario's troupe was decided less by skill and more the kind of audacity that the Emperor's Children weren't prepared for

[b1soul]

Having the Asian legion being amazing with a sword because of their special training and unique mystical philosophy is a stereotype.

Is it stereotypical to have the knight legion be awesome with swords because of their special knightly training?

 

I see what you're getting at...the whole kung fu samurai swordsmen stereotype associated with eastern warriors

 

It doesn't really bother me...but that's down to personal taste.

 

If the WS view combat as a form of poetic expression, I think it makes sense for them place quite a bit of emphasis on personal bladework

 

Dark Angels or EC can take this one and it doesn't make anyone less cool.

Based on the rules, EC don't really "take" this...only DA have special "swordsmen" rules, no?

 

Only Palatine Blades are "special" swordsmen, correct?

[b1soul]

It wasn't so much that Jubal was amazing so much as he fought in a looser manner than Sigismund expected.

Jubal is amazing...but Sig is even more amazing ;)

 

Other than severing Sig's wrist chain and kicking Sig's face, Jubal has him arm disabled rather quickly and pretty much admits defeat

 

BL seems to be building Sig up to be really one of a kind, and I hope he really shines at the Siege

 

But I'd add that the Brotherhood of the Moon vs Cario's troupe was decided less by skill and more the kind of audacity that the Emperor's Children weren't prepared for

Shiban's Brotherhood of the Storm couldn't match Cario's Palatine Blades blade for blade

 

It's debatable whether a healthy, non-mechanical Shiban could've matched Cario...but I think Wraight makes it clear that Cario and his Palatine Blades are quite exceptional. He does them justice without putting them over the top I think

[Frater Cornelius]

About the whole knight vs eastern warrior issue and swords, you have to remember that in Europe the sword was not only a weapon but a status symbol, luxury and downright legendary myths like Excalibur and the Ulfberht swords. So there is a reason why knights are always associated with swords. I am an expert on eastern martial arts and myths, but I never heard any significance about swords specifically outside of Japan (each blade has the soul of the smith or something), especially not Mongolia (the primary inspiration for Scars) where bows were far more prominent. I can not say that a knight was a better archer than an average Mongolian.

 

The point is that while Scars were good with swords, they were also good with other weapons. However, it does not seem that they dedicate so much into purely swords and do not have such a tradition around them. Mind you, I have read rather little about Scars. This is just what I picked on the way.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Dark Angels and White Scars are good examples of tropes vs. stereotypes in literature, but that is beyond the purview of the thread and forum because it has a fair amount of critique not suitable for our rules. We can PM about it if you want :)

[b1soul]

Both are rather cliche, and I don't think the distinction makes one more poorly executed than the other...but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree

 

Back on topic...it appears that based on rules, DA are the most sword-focused legion, meaning their Paladins should be the most sword-focused legion unit. Makes sense to me.

 

Though I think the best overall melee unit among the legions should be the WE Triarii or Red Butchers

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Scimitars were used in horse warfare because of their relatively light weight when compared to larger swords and their curved design, good for slashing opponents while riding on a horse. The curved design allowed riders to slash enemies and keep riding without getting stuck as stabbing with straight swords on horseback would. So while it's a good weapon when mounted might not be the best choice on foot.

[Huggtand]

Just a sidetrack of a pet pewee of mine

Almost all swords of similar type (primary one handed, one and a half or longsword and two handed sword) have similar weight regardless of design or place of origin (the katana being the odd one out - to heavy for its length).

Plenty of curved swords intended for foot and straight swords used by cavalry to really make a distinction in use between the two types. You have sabers and messers for foot soldiers and longswords and rapiers for horsemen. It really comes down to cultural preference and aesthetic. There is not even so much difference in handling as many people believe. It matters more for the use if there is a back edge or not.

Regarding different styles of swordsmanship (historically, not in 30k) it is basically the same techniques everywhere in the world. Sure there are differences but it’s mostly to do with different sort of armour to work around in different cultures.

Sorry for not contributing to the discussion so much but I do like swords

[rendingon1+]

nevermind :)

[Slips]

=] And with that said, this is where we return to talking about the OP/Topic at hand and not real-world swordplay. [=

[bluntblade]

One thing I'd add against the EC argument is that they're also shown to be peerless marksmen. So that suggests they don't specialise as exclusively as the DA.

[Calas Typhon]

One thing I'd add against the EC argument is that they're also shown to be peerless marksmen. So that suggests they don't specialise as exclusively as the DA.

 

They seek perfection in all weapons, its only natural that they train with the weapons they most use to the highest standard.

[rendingon1+]

What counts as 'perfection' and 'art' when using weapons anyway?

[Frater Cornelius]

What counts as 'perfection' and 'art' when using weapons anyway?

 

Good question. To me, a weapon is a tool. Mean to an end. It is nothing but an extension of self and follows the same motifs and morals as the wielder. There is little art or pleasure to be found when using that weapon to take a life unless the person wielding it finds pleasure and art in these things, which I do not think is either good or right.

[Marshal Rohr]

In the context of the EC it's nothing deep or spiritual. It just means they train a lot. No metaphysical connotation needed.

[Calas Typhon]

What counts as 'perfection' and 'art' when using weapons anyway?

 

 

 

What counts as 'perfection' and 'art' when using weapons anyway?

 

Good question. To me, a weapon is a tool. Mean to an end. It is nothing but an extension of self and follows the same motifs and morals as the wielder. There is little art or pleasure to be found when using that weapon to take a life unless the person wielding it finds pleasure and art in these things, which I do not think is either good or right.

 

 

As pointed out my Marshal. However my wording was perhaps a bit off so I will go into a bit more detail about what I meant.

 

It is as I interpret it, to master the use of a weapon to be as good as you can be with that weapon. In relation to this thread, you could be a swordsman whom has perfected the use of the blade to be proficient in all the cuts and thrusts and be able to use them effectively in combat at the right moment.

[Withershadow]

Ugh! Please remove "whom" from your sentence, and never use it again, thanks. :)  It gets misused so often, and 99% of the time when the author is trying to be fancy and ending up with the opposite result.  Just use "who" if in doubt.

 

Regarding "perfectionism" and "art", Lucius, who styled himself a good enough swordsman to maybe even take a shot at Fulgrim, was really upset when Loken beat him by not conforming to "sword dueling rules" whatever those are, and just smashing in his perfect face (hence the eventual obsession with disfiguring it further).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is that why he disfigured himself ?

[Withershadow]

It became a complex and he started carving lines into his face to mark particularly interesting kills. Before Loken smashed his face, Lucius was Pretty Boy to rival Daddy himself.

 

It puts the lotion on its skin.

[rendingon1+]

Is that why he disfigured himself ?

After Loken apothecaries tried to mend Lucius' broken nose but weirdly it refused to heal properly + he was influenced by remembrancer-painter who tortured herself. Or something like that.

[Withershadow]

Basically Lucius is that anime bad-guy who seems untouchable and unflappable, until the protagonist lands some minor glancing blow (cutting off a strand of hair or clothing, or a light scratch across the face), and he loses his marbles. Going back to his pre-Astartes years, he reveled in the fact that he was unblemished and would disfigure his opponents to leave his mark.

 

Except in this case Loken Owen Wilsoned his nose, so we're talking extra crazy.

 

IIRC, the Remembrancer was the same one who made Fulgrim's poop and blood painting.

[Calas Typhon]

Ugh! Please remove "whom" from your sentence, and never use it again, thanks. It gets misused so often, and 99% of the time when the author is trying to be fancy and ending up with the opposite result. Just use "who" if in doubt.

Regarding "perfectionism" and "art", Lucius, who styled himself a good enough swordsman to maybe even take a shot at Fulgrim, was really upset when Loken beat him by not conforming to "sword dueling rules" whatever those are, and just smashing in his perfect face (hence the eventual obsession with disfiguring it further).

Whom do you think you are to tell me what to and what to not write?

On a more serious note though, Lucius was a master swordsman and one of the best in the Legion and a good example of perfecting the use of a weapon within the Third Legion. The other points can be directed towards the insanity that gripped the EC, it has nothing to do with this thread.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The novel is coming back to me now and I think it was a good one. Lucius was so vile at Ivstann but more of an anti hero in Graham's novel (imo) .

[Withershadow]

Ugh! Please remove "whom" from your sentence, and never use it again, thanks. It gets misused so often, and 99% of the time when the author is trying to be fancy and ending up with the opposite result. Just use "who" if in doubt.

Regarding "perfectionism" and "art", Lucius, who styled himself a good enough swordsman to maybe even take a shot at Fulgrim, was really upset when Loken beat him by not conforming to "sword dueling rules" whatever those are, and just smashing in his perfect face (hence the eventual obsession with disfiguring it further).

Whom do you think you are to tell me what to and what to not write?

On a more serious note though, Lucius was a master swordsman and one of the best in the Legion and a good example of perfecting the use of a weapon within the Third Legion. The other points can be directed towards the insanity that gripped the EC, it has nothing to do with this thread.

Ugh, you did it again. I mean, I'm just trying to help you to not look illiterate (and worse, an illiterate pretending to be erudite), but you seem committed, so go for it. But no, seriously, think of the children...

But anyway, we see their "perfectionism" constantly, they all try to be the bestest marksman, and the bestest swords guy, and the bestest strategist, depending on where their talents lie, and their armor is so spotless it would blind the most constipated of Ultramarines.

[Calas Typhon]

Ugh! Please remove "whom" from your sentence, and never use it again, thanks. It gets misused so often, and 99% of the time when the author is trying to be fancy and ending up with the opposite result. Just use "who" if in doubt.

Regarding "perfectionism" and "art", Lucius, who styled himself a good enough swordsman to maybe even take a shot at Fulgrim, was really upset when Loken beat him by not conforming to "sword dueling rules" whatever those are, and just smashing in his perfect face (hence the eventual obsession with disfiguring it further).

Whom do you think you are to tell me what to and what to not write?

On a more serious note though, Lucius was a master swordsman and one of the best in the Legion and a good example of perfecting the use of a weapon within the Third Legion. The other points can be directed towards the insanity that gripped the EC, it has nothing to do with this thread.

Ugh, you did it again. I mean, I'm just trying to help you to not look illiterate (and worse, an illiterate pretending to be erudite), but you seem committed, so go for it. But no, seriously, think of the children...

But anyway, we see their "perfectionism" constantly, they all try to be the bestest marksman, and the bestest swords guy, and the bestest strategist, depending on where their talents lie, and their armor is so spotless it would blind the most constipated of Ultramarines.

But no, seriously, stop derailing the thread.