Joe Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Hey all. I'm looking at throwing together a 3000pts Astra Militarum force over the course of the year, and like any true soldier of the Imperium I've settled on starting it off with a large cadre of Leman Russ Battle Tanks. However, I'm a little out of the loop on how best to field them in regards to equipment, as well as how to support them. As far as I can see when it comes to formations, I could run them with an Emperor's Blade Assault Company, an Emperor's Spear Aerial Company or run them with Militarum Tempestus allies and take a Ground Assault Formation. As far as fluff goes, I'm not massively fussed beyond fielding the tank side of things, but I'm more interested in having a half-decent force to play with. Cheers in advance. \o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 The variety of tanks and upgrades means they give you many good ways to skin a xeno (or, perhaps more accurately, render xenos to small chunks?). I wrote a tactica a little bit back that should get you up to date on the generals of Russ combat :tu: As to how you run them as a whole that depends on what you're after - and how many tanks you have! For example you can get quite a few in with a CAD thanks to Tank Commanders and squadrons :) As you'd expect tanks can do a lot of heavy lifting for the Guard but are vulnerable to close assault so I always recommend a healthy number of infantry to help protect them. I consider Infantry Platoons best for this, as you can get a lot of escorting troops in for less investment and make them effective enough with minimal upgrade costs. Stormies are a bit too expensive and specialised to function as escorts for armour. They're best off taking the battle to the enemy and making the most of their abilities. Do you have a colour scheme for your Guard force? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4609709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 I'll take a pop at the tactica. I was initially after the stormies or veterans for the added bulkiness, plus the thought of rolling a Taurox or Chimera kitted to deal with any infantry that might threaten the Leman Russ'. I like the thought of just running an infantry platoon with them, though. As far as the colour scheme goes, I'm thinking dark tan fabric with metallic grey armour plating. I'm going to try and avoid using the Cadian stuff if I can avoid it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4609892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Some infantry is better than none, just that the Platoon will be more efficient at it. Sentinels can also work as close support if they're kept cheap. One of the main attributes I've found is the ability to charge as what is after tanks often doesn't want to be tied up with infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Whenever I've used the Emperor's Fist formation, Ive started with the standard load out of Pask in a Punisher with an Exterminator buddy, Heavy Bolter sponsons on both. It's a good balance between firepower and remaining versatile given that you can call in a split fire order. For the core formation itself, my favourite has been the following: Tank Commander, Vanquisher, hull Lascannon, Multi-Melta sponsons Vanquisher, hull Lascannon LRBT LRBT Eradicator Enginseer Partly because I have the tanks already built, but S8 AP3 pie plates are always needed in an MEQ heavy meta, ignores cover is useful, and Vanquisher cannons within a BS4 bubble are the only reliable way of taking them. It's worked out well for me in all but a handful of games up against extremely competitive players. A little reminder that running a mech heavy list isn't the most effective way of playing with any intention of winning in 7th. The Emperor's Blade formation is a good compliment for the Fist, and gives you all of the obsec that's missing in the Mont'Ka book. Allied Militarum Tempestus is something I will always agree with, and have posted a few times in here. I don't run them in either of the formations in the codex, but ally in a Command Squad (4x plasma) and 2x 5-man Scion Squads (2x melta), deep striking them in to pop tanks and take out heavy infantry squads. Comes in at 325pts and usually makes twice the points back if you get lucky with your deep strikes. They're not going to bubble wrap or really protect your tanks, but certainly fulfil other battlefield roles. As far as building a list goes, it might be in your best interests to run a CAD of your choosing, Emperor's Fist formation, and allied MT. The CAD option allows you to take Pask, obsec mech troops, bubblewrap platoons, and Wyverns. The formation stays the same, considering it doesn't really benefit from the Cadian Battle Group bonuses. The allies work as described. At 3,000pts, you've got more than enough to play with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 I'd already angled towards running PunisherxPask and an Eradicator after reading through WarriorFish's guide last night, so I've got that nailed down. Here's what I've thrown together so far. ++ Formation ++ ++ Emperor's Fist Armoured Company - 1330pts ++ Commander: Command Punisher (2x Heavy Bolter sponsoons, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Knight Commander Pask, Warlord), Eradicator (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Lema Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Enginseer ++ Emperor's Blade Assault Company - 668pts ++ Company Command Squad: Carapace Armour, Company Commander (Camo Gear, Carapace Armour), x4 Veteran /w Lasgun, Master of Ordnance (Laspistol), Chimera (Autocannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x9 Veteran /w Lasgun), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x9 Veteran /w Lasgun), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x9 Veteran /w Lasgun), Taurox Hellhound (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) I'm trying to avoid over-spending on the tanks, both from a points perspective and thinking of maneuverability; adding sponsoons to each Russ widens them by two inches, so that really restricts how I can move them and respond to any assaulting enemies. Arming them with a Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer would serve as a deterrent for any infantry, with the possibility of expanding the Hellhound squadron to provide further assistance on that front (on top of that, if I can fit in any Sentinels or just advance a Taurox or two for additional autocannon support). I'm a little bit unsure of how to arm the veterans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 All Russ tanks can operate effectively without sponsons - they're not essential :) You've a lot of AP3, but a bit short on AP2 so maybe some plasma for the Vets is an idea? Otherwise you're short on anti-infantry so cheap flamers could do nasty things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 So, with added plasma on the Company Command Squad and Veterans, something like this?++ Formation ++++ Emperor's Fist Armoured Company - 1330pts ++ Commander: Command Punisher (2x Heavy Bolter sponsoons, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Knight Commander Pask, Warlord), Eradicator (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Lema Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Enginseer ++ Emperor's Blade Assault Company - 773pts ++ Company Command Squad: Carapace Armour, Company Commander (Camo Gear, Carapace Armour), x3 Veteran /w Lasgun, x1 Veteran /w Plasma Gun, Master of Ordnance (Laspistol), Chimera (Autocannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Hellhound (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) That'll bring me up to 2103pts on the list as a whole, without the addition of another Hellhound or anything other than the extra plasma guns on the squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I like it, perhaps instead of a single plasma gun a heavy weapon instead for the CCS? They could shoot it from the safety of the Chimera. You're lacking on horde control at range, but between the pie plates and templates you have you have answers so with some good control of how they hit your lines certainly more than manageable - you can roast them easily enough would just be a matter of if you've done enough to handle what comes afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 On the CCS, I could replace the plasma with an autocannon team or a heavy bolter team, aye? Alongside the Master of Ordnance that should give me some decent coverage. Throw in an Emperor's Talon Recon Company (mixture of las and auto Sentinels) and an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company (replace the Basilisks with Wyverns, kit the CCS the same way as the other CCS) and I think I've more or less covered all my bases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4610623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I would honestly consider swapping two of the LRBTs out for a couple of Eradicators. S6 AP4 with Ignores Cover will really help out against those pesky, jinking Xenos! Seriously, you don't realise how much ignoring the cover saves of a army of speeding jet bikes can change the tide of a game. There's a saving of 60pts straight away, which could go towards kitting out your Vets with a decent amount of special weapons. Ordnance is great and all, but you'd really benefit from swapping some of the Plasma guns with melta for drive by armour busting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4611299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Autocannon is superior to HB, sadly, so given the choice always pick that. I also like Eradicators though sometimes they can struggle to find a spot - but a tank company usually has one spare ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4611347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 For this list, some standard Ignores Cover is welcome. Obviously there are orders that grant the ruling, but they're less effective, less reliable, and in fewer numbers in my experience. Another thing to consider would be the Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation. Even for the sake of introducing Wyverns in without having to take on a CAD. Then again, considering they're already twin linked and ignore cover, it's worth finding the points for at least one Basilisk or even a Hydra to receive Ignores Cover along with the Manticore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4611529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 @slowclinic; I was angling for the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Formation already, with an eye to taking a Wyvern, a Hydra and a Manticore alongside the repeated CCS from the Emperor's Blade Assault Company (sans Master of Ordnance). I've also thrown in an Emperor's Talon Recon Company, running two Armoured Sentinel Squadrons, armed with Lascannons and Autocannons respectively. @WarriorFish; Autocannons it is then! ^^ Here's what I've nailed down so far. ++ Formation ++ ++ Emperor's Fist Armoured Company - 1330pts ++ Commander: Command Punisher (2x Heavy Bolter sponsoons, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Knight Commander Pask, Warlord), Eradicator (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Leman Russ Battle Tank (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Leman Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Lema Russ Demolisher (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Enginseer ++ Emperor's Blade Assault Company - 773pts ++ Company Command Squad: Carapace Armour, Company Commander (Camo Gear, Carapace Armour), x3 Veteran /w Lasgun, Veteran Autocannon Team, Master of Ordnance (Laspistol), Chimera (Autocannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Veterans: Grenadiers, Veteran Sergeant (Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol), x7 Veteran /w Lasgun, x2 Veteran /w Plasma Guns), Taurox Hellhound (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) ++ Emperor's Talon Recon Company - 285pts ++ Armoured Sentinel Squadron: Armoured Sentinel (Lascannon), Armoured Sentinel (Lascannon), Armoured Sentinel (Lascannon) Armoured Sentinel Squadron: Armoured Sentinel (Autocannon), Armoured Sentinel (Autocannon), Armoured Sentinel (Autocannon) ++ Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company - 568pts ++ Wyvern Battery: Wyvern (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer), Wyvern (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Hydra Battery: Hydra (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Company Command Squad: Carapace Armour, Company Commander (Camo Gear, Carapace Armour), x3 Veteran /w Lasgun, Veteran Autocannnon Team, Chimera (Autocannon, Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Manticore (Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer) Enginseer That leaves me at 2951pts, and if I drop two LRBTs as you suggested in favour of Eradicators, I can net the additional 60pts for upgrades on the Vets. So I could swap out one plasma per squad for a melta, then see what else is left over for any other upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4611734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 For Pask's squad mate would you consider an Executioner with plasma cannons. It will easily melt TEQ and MEQ while negating gets hots with PE. You'll also have an enginseer that can help out if needs be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4611779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Technically the new FAQ squashed the pask upgrade in the emperors fist formation. (God knows why they let if slide for space marines...) So just check with your opponent / TO first. Most my casual games players haven't mind. Its bit absurd though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4612240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Technically the new FAQ squashed the pask upgrade in the emperors fist formation. (God knows why they let if slide for space marines...) So just check with your opponent / TO first. Most my casual games players haven't mind. Its bit absurd though Ah! But the official FAQ a couple of months ago went back on this. You can now re-roll gets hot for blast weapons if there's a ruling that allows re-rolls to hit. I don't know why there was such a flip of the rules... Maybe too many people kicking off? I know when the draft came out, I switched to an Exterminator which I find more effective. I have an allied MT Command with referred enemy orders and four plasma guns - problem solved. One thing to keep in mind with the Sentinels is that they get cheap plasma cannons; 10pts, as opposed to 15pts for infantry and 30pts for sponsons on tanks. If you use Scout Sentinels and outflank, those babies will sing! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4613688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Did it? My understanding is that they reversed the Gets Hot ruling, but not the Pask upgrade rule. I'll quite happily be proven wrong though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4613867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Pretty sure scout sentinels can't get plasma cannons. The FAQ reversed the preffered enemy ruling but not the one on Pask. I wouldn't bother with an autocannon in the CCS as they should be mobile. I'd leave the artillery CCS barebones maybe with a flamer or two. The tank commander gives BS4 to everyone in 12" punishers, vanquishers and exterminators make better use of it than eradicators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4613892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Old Grudges is the Warlord Trait that grants preferred enemy. So if the PE ruling has been changed, so does Pask's buff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4613903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrowmaster Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 PE still affects gets hot rolls. What I meant by the ruling on Pask is that he can't be included in the formation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4613923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero88 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Unfortunately Pask cannot be taken in the formation, as the Venerable bubble provided by the techpriests would be great for protecting your ~240 point warlord from getting one shorted. Pask is explicitly stated as being available as an upgrade for the Cadian command choice but is not mentioned at all in the actual Emperor's Fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4614230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Christ, you're all starting to confuse me a bit. ;-; One thing to keep in mind with the Sentinels is that they get cheap plasma cannons; 10pts, as opposed to 15pts for infantry and 30pts for sponsons on tanks. If you use Scout Sentinels and outflank, those babies will sing! Only Armoured Sentinels can take plasma cannons, frustratingly. I'd probably be better taking lascannons or multi-melta on Scout Sentinels. As far as Pask goes, does that mean I can't take him in the Armoured Company? If so, I can knock him off of there easily. With the CCS, I could ditch the autocannons and take flamers instead (or revert to plasma guns for giggles), and I'll happily trade out the Eradicator for a Vanquisher if need be. I can always bring in an Eradicator in one of the other units, swapping out a LRBT or Demolisher. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4614246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowclinic Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Christ, you're all starting to confuse me a bit. ;-; One thing to keep in mind with the Sentinels is that they get cheap plasma cannons; 10pts, as opposed to 15pts for infantry and 30pts for sponsons on tanks. If you use Scout Sentinels and outflank, those babies will sing! Only Armoured Sentinels can take plasma cannons, frustratingly. I'd probably be better taking lascannons or multi-melta on Scout Sentinels. As far as Pask goes, does that mean I can't take him in the Armoured Company? If so, I can knock him off of there easily. With the CCS, I could ditch the autocannons and take flamers instead (or revert to plasma guns for giggles), and I'll happily trade out the Eradicator for a Vanquisher if need be. I can always bring in an Eradicator in one of the other units, swapping out a LRBT or Demolisher. To be honest, I didn't bother to check the Codex, and haven't ran Sentinels of any kind myself. They're too expensive money-wise for me to think of. I got confused about what we were talking about. Pask can't be taken, no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4614360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hm, that's frustrating. With that in mind, couldn't I just take the Cadian Battle Group (with Pask in Battle Group Command) instead, then take the Armoured Company, Assault Company and Artillery Company as auxiliary choices? I'm a bit leery now of taking the Scout Sentinels if I can save those points for additional squad upgrades and units elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329400-emperors-fist-armoured-company-how-to-field-and-support/#findComment-4614408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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