Crusades of the Scouring Era

[BitsHammer]

I know I'm not the only one here who has rather enjoyed seeing the old marks of power armour come out in plastic in the last year, nor am I the first to think about a crusade from such an era of confusion, anarchy and so forth.

 

I just believe I'm the first to overtime this to the point that it kept waking me in the night like a vision from the Emperor.

 

To keep this simple I'm breaking out the questions I asked myself and laying them out here with my answers to promote some discussion on our own personal views of how this works since someone lost the keys to the Librarian ten thousand years ago and no one has been inside to sort the mess since.

 

30k vs 40k rules?

This is a split between if you want to run your Crusade during or before the Iron Cage or after. Before gives you Sigismund, Papa Form and a bunch of Legion specific toys that don't exist anymore.

 

After gives you the Emperor's Champion, ATSKNF, proper Templar colors and icons ND Neophytes. i have emailed FW about what Legion equipment may carry over rules wise (as well as hint that we need rules for Sigismund) but for now we'll stick to the codex + Angels of Death (for the Warlord Traits).

 

Quite honestly, pending any Forge World support of such an endeavour of course, 40k rules for Black Templars will be the more restrictive. No Razorbacks (they're from M36), or Land Raider Crusaders (M39) and a large number of flyer options are off the table right off the bat. So unless your Scouring Crusade fell through the warp into the modern timeline (say a battle barge in route for the first Black Crusade arrives for the thirteenth) you're going to lose a fair amount of support.

 

This means the Scouring Era Templars with 40k rules are going to need to focus on Rhinos, Drop Pods or Black Tide builds. Between the two I'd say Drop Pods and the Tide are the ones that feel the most stable in terms of build unless you want to run a more gunline based Templar army in which case small Squads of Initiates with a special and a heavy (and up to 5 ablative wound Neophytes) can sit inside their Rhinos like some of the lesser chapters who failed to see the true threat of the traitors.

 

MkIII vs MkIV vs later Mk Armour?

Let's be honest: no one taking up a project like this is likely to be building any marks younger than MkV so I'll ignore it.

 

Part of the answer here comes from how far forward you want to go in your Crusade, the rest comes from some hints FW gave us.

 

Now MKIII is the big contender here for being the primary choice of the early Templars for a few reasons:

1. The Templars of the Legion were the guards of the Temple of Oaths, meaning they would be equipped for shipborne combat. Said equipment would have carried over with them when the left the Legion.

2. Sigismund himself wears MkIII armour making the look blend better if you want to use him in your army as himself or an EC.

3. It's the more knightly of the armour choices.

 

MKIV gets a few points along the way though too:

1. Sigismund secured quite a fair bit of it from Mars to supply the Legion ensuring that when the Siege of Terra happened the Imperial Fists would have access to newer equipment.

2. It looks good in black (though I am mixed on the white face plate I have seen in some art for the helmet) and fits well for many "face punching" factions of the time

 

Later Marks of course have their place as well:

1. MkIV began to see replacement by this by the end of the Heresy which means by the time of the Iron Cage most of the MkIV was likely replaced by MkV or MkVI

 

Frankly I am a big fan of MkIII and definitely hold a bigger bias towards supporting it over other choices for the era.

 

Tabards, Iconography, ECT?

Tabards are always one of those things that will be hard to go either way on. The Legion Templar models all have them but we know they are to be earned which means more towards seeing them more on the portion who carried over from that group rather than every Templar.

 

On the flip side some of us (like me) feel like every Templar really does look better in a tabard and would likely end up making a massive project of it anyways.

 

Basically this is a "go with what works for you".

 

Now when it comes to early Iconography it's tempting to say that every early Templar would be a veteran on par with being a SB but experience does not always make a leader alone. SB are more than just those who are veterans of gruesome campaigns and battles but those who have a temperament to be trustworthy of leadership.

 

Now as for crusade badges I don't have a lot of ideas right now, but for the Iron Cage I feel like a "IV" with a red "X" slashed through it may represent those events fairly well.

 

The big question though for me is silver trim like the Legion Templars or going for baroque and giving MkIII gold trim on the armour plates would be better (honestly I am more partial for going for baroque).

 

So how do you weigh in on the early crusades?

[Marshal Rohr]

All tabards is very cool and lore accurate. Even though they are lacking on the FW models they are omnipresent in the literature.

 

Personally, I just adjust the names. Veterans, Templars, and Terminators become a version of Sword Brethren. There is nothing cooler than 20 power armored crusaders with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords spilling out of a Spartan. The only thing we lose is Neophytes and Centurions and the later days vehicles which aren't much of a loss when you see a Sicaran or Fire Raptor in black :D

[BitsHammer]

Adjusting names is something Templars have done since 6th edition. ;)

[Honda]

Lots of food for thought you've laid out on the table;

 

1. I too am a big fan of the Mk III, so have acquired quite of few of them for this purpose. I am planning on some figures bearing IF color on parts for visual ties.

 

2. Tabards in general are a "yes", but I am also considering not putting them on everyone wearing Mk III.

 

3. One of the things I've not reconciled yet because I don't have the Legion book(s) is are we really better off with those lists vs. straight C:SM?

 

Some observations:

   - A lot of the HH batreps I've watched have a very limited palette of units in them.

  - A number of the more interesting units only show up in much larger games, which for all intents and purposes equals Apocalyse

  - We play a lot of Apocalypse, so we can pretty much include a lot of the "Legion" vehicles as LoW, so nothing gained there.

 

4. What would be kind of nice if this hasn't happened yet, is a discussion of how the various armies play within their own system.

 

  - My initial observations are that the individual units in HH can be bigger, are more expensive, and wield heavier firepower. Also the supporting units can add a lot of firepower. to support these large units.

 

  - Whereas 40K formations are sturdier (ATSKNF), smaller and more numerous and generally more flexible. Unless you are playing at Apoc levels, then the super ugly tanks and whatnot don't really come into the picture, so the greater variety of vehicles provides more options.

 

I am fully laying out my ignorance on these differences, as most of my HH observations have come from video batreps. So I could be way off.

 

Anyway, Fulkes, I don't know if you were intending to host this discussion and some of the topics  I listed above, but those are some of the things I am interested in hearing about.

 

Good topic.

 

Cheers,

[BitsHammer]

The more discussion the better as it influences what rulesets we use for building the Scourging Crusaders.

 

I can't say a lot about 30k personally other than it tends to seem to be a 3k+ point game. That's roughly where things tend to balance more I hear and more of the toys open up.

 

For Apocalypse it is definitely an easy choice to make as it has a lot of our better toys and we could even sneak Form in to represent some of our shared battles with him (such as the first Black Crusade). On the flipside, for more casual games of 1.5-2k I lean more towards the Codex version of the army.

 

The 40k option still gives us a fair amount of choices from the FW stuff that has gotten 40k rules over the last few years (Spartan Assault tank, Fellblade, ECT) too so it's not like we lose everything. The lack of Sigismund is frustrating though but maybe FW will reply kindly to the email I sent.

[Son of Carnelian]

*Breathes in*

 

Okay I have a lot of thoughts about this because I tend to think about Sigismund and his Templars whenever my brain isn't doing anything else. 

 

The Scouring Era, as you note, is distinctly different from the late Heresy era, though perhaps not so much in terms of tactics. The question that immediately comes to mind for me is: when does Sigismund institute the practice of Neophytes? That's probably the dividing line between late Heresy and the Scouring for the Templars. Once Sigismund institutes that, they're no longer a legion or a Space Marine Chapter. They're the Black Templars. 

 

Still, the "Black Templars" might spiritually exist as early as the Alpha Legion's assault on the Sol Sector, seen in the Praetorian of Dorn. You can't tell me that thousands of Astartes, gathered at the edge of the system expressly for the purpose of fighting other Astartes, led only by Sigismund, wouldn't at least slightly resemble the Templars of the next few years.

 

Also, when does Sigismund trade in the Black Sword for the Sword of the High Marshals? Another important point to consider. 

 

In terms of crunch, not having Sigismund in his Forge World form is upsetting, but only because I suspect his power only grows after becoming an Emperor's Champion. We know that he survives all the way until the first Black Crusade, which must take an superlative amount of skill. Depending on how far into the Scouring you want to do this, you might just make some house rules for him and price him accordingly. 

 

Anyway, I'll wrap this up. The Scouring Era represents one of the most potent times for setting a Crusade and you have a lot of fun questions ahead of you (which I realize I may only have added to). If I were making this army, I would mix MK III, IV, and V power armor, as the first Templars are likely all veterans of supply shortages from the Heresy. Also, I would use the Space Marines Codex rather than the Legion ruleset, because not only does it allow for more tactical flexibility but it also represents the Templars themselves much better.

 

I mean, can you see the Templars having Seeker Squads or Tactical Support Squads? Of course not. 

 

Go forth and cleanse the stars with your blade!

[Marshal Rohr]

The thing with the 30K list is that the units and characters are vague enough that they can essentially fill any lore role you need them to. For example, take the Sons of Horus. You want to play a company of veteran legionaries, not first company elite, but just a more standard line company with lots of campaigns under its belt. In 40K, your only option is to take a formation that focuses on Vanguard, Terminators, or Sternguard and maybe a Chapter Master with Honor Guard. In 30K, your options are far more broad.

 

First, start with the basic compulsory troops. The most obvious option is the Pride of the Legion Rite of War. This allows Terminators and Veteran Tactical Squads as troops. This is roughly analogous to the 40k Veteran Company formations, because of its focus on veteran squads and terminator armored infantry. But that isn't the only option. You could also take a standard tactical squad and give the a close combat weapon, in addition to their normal bolt pistol and bolter. While the squad lacks the combi-weapons and special weapons options available to Sternguard in 40K or Tacticals in 30K, they now have the same equipment load-out as an out of the box 30K Veteran tactical (They lack the base 2 attacks the veteran has, however). Tactical Support Squads with all special weapons can also buy a close combat weapon, too. This could help represent a company of veterans from multiple campaigns without resorting to just Veteran (with an upper case V) units. 

 

I used that example to help illustrate where my next portion of the post is coming from.

 

Basically, there are two sections of the Scouring in which you can build your 'Black Templars'. The first would be the tens years before the Iron Cage, that immediately followed the Siege of Terra. During this time the only Templars would be the first company, now all wearing the black of mourning (iirc). The second option is in the time period after the Legion was broken, and this is where you would begin to see the chapter's unqiue organization begin to take shape. Lore wise, the Iron Cage will be covered by BL because someone was mentioned as having already claimed it or something, but I cant remember. Personally, I would go with something about 60-75 years after the Iron Cage, because I think the Scouring lasted over a Century, but I am not sure. The Great Scouring ends with the Time of Rebrith, when the Imperium under Guillimans reform actually expands farther than the frontiers of the Great Crusade (mirroring his Caesar Augustus influence). Plenty of space to fill in your own lore, and I would avoid any concrete information about how the chapter formed or why it is the way it is. This will let you adapt to fluff changes as they come instead of having to go back and retcon your own lore. 

 

Some ideas for cool and thematic Templars you can build using the Legion list:

 

-Sword Brethren Terminator Command Squads that actually have a Banner :P

-'Purgation Squads' of Flamer or Heavy Flamer wielding Initiates. The Flamer guys can even take chainswords. 

-20 man Crusader squads with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords

-Sword/Bolter and Board Templars with the Templar Brethren with Combat Shields, Assault Squads with Combat Shields, and Breacher Siege Squads

-Crusader Squads with rad weaponry. Destroyers come with 2 pistols and ccw standard, this could be modeled with the pistol and chainsword out. Not to mention hand flamers which are cool and fluffy, if a little weak in game.

 

 

What you lose:

-Neophytes

-Land Raider Crusaders

-... Its been a while so Im not sure

 

Personally, I'd trade neophytes for 20 man Crusader Squads and the LRC for the Spartan. 

[BitsHammer]

Razorbacks are out too if you use the 30k rules.

 

Well they're out basically regardless unless you build a Scouring Era Crusade that fell out of the warp 10k years after they should have and mix their ancient wargear with modern reinforcements (LRCs and Razorbacks particularly).

 

Scouring Era Crusaders in modern 40k would likely be more upset at the current state of things than Greyfax potentially will be. The amount of RIGHTEOUS ZEAL unleashed in response to all the tom-foolery would be a thing of legends.

[Marshal Rohr]

An age of darkness Detachment would struggle against 40k formations because they don't have all the special buffs.

[BitsHammer]

An age of darkness Detachment would struggle against 40k formations because they don't have all the special buffs.

 

Very true. It's probably one of the reasons it holds me back from going "30k is the way to go!" since it loses some of that Templar face stomping flavor.

[Marshal Rohr]

If youre a lore > game kind of person, its the way to go, but if you game a decent amount you'll need to make a decision based on tabletop effectiveness. I would say you could try your best to build an army that could work for both. Like build some Templar destroyers for the odd game of Scouring era play. 

[BitsHammer]

For me personally no one really plays 30k locally sadly so it means running 30k versus 40k armies, and at a level that hampers the 30k list (usually 1.5-2k). Now it's an option for Apoc games since they tend to have army limits over that, but for me it's not the best option if I want to get a pick up game.

 

That said it has room to definitely be an option on the table. Sadly just not my table.

[Honda]

Okay I have a lot of thoughts about this because I tend to think about Sigismund and his Templars whenever my brain isn't doing anything else.

 

 

Dude, when you have thoughts like this, you shouldn't keep them to yourself.

 

The Scouring Era, as you note, is distinctly different from the late Heresy era, though perhaps not so much in terms of tactics. The question that immediately comes to mind for me is: when does Sigismund institute the practice of Neophytes? That's probably the dividing line between late Heresy and the Scouring for the Templars. Once Sigismund institutes that, they're no longer a legion or a Space Marine Chapter. They're the Black Templars. 

 

 

Very interesting concept. Question for you, how soon after the Siege of Terra ended, did the rout back to the Eye begin? This is generally what I would have considered the beginning of The Scouring, which would imply that Legion type forces would still be in operation.

 

In fact, do we know when the break up of the Fists took place, as that would seem like an obvious place to put the formation of the Black Templars.

 

I say this just from recollections/impressions that I have, I don't really know.

 

 

Still, the "Black Templars" might spiritually exist as early as the Alpha Legion's assault on the Sol Sector, seen in the Praetorian of Dorn. You can't tell me that thousands of Astartes, gathered at the edge of the system expressly for the purpose of fighting other Astartes, led only by Sigismund, wouldn't at least slightly resemble the Templars of the next few years.

 

 

I haven't read this yet, so a) NO SPOILERS PLEASE, and b) When does this take place?

 

Also, when does Sigismund trade in the Black Sword for the Sword of the High Marshals? Another important point to consider.

 

 

If I was going to make a guess, I'd say this happened when the formal creation of the Templars took place.

 

@Rohr: Some good observations. I have run "Bolter storm" units (10 Initiates/10 Neophytes) in games and they are a surprisingly effective unit. Being able to field 20 guys in 3+ armor and bolters is one of the things that has always attracted me to Legion lists.

 

I also like the idea of the support units (Imagine 5-10 guys in a drop pod with melta guns) is very tempting.

 

That being said, it does seem that the Legion lists give up more at lower point levels for that privilege. Now at Apoc levels, which is what I play more of, it seems like there would be quite a bit of benefit to having these stronger, more survivable units, but I don't know. I think I'll just have to get the Legion list book at some point and try it in some games.

[Son of Carnelian]

 

Okay I have a lot of thoughts about this because I tend to think about Sigismund and his Templars whenever my brain isn't doing anything else.

 

 

Dude, when you have thoughts like this, you shouldn't keep them to yourself.

 

The Scouring Era, as you note, is distinctly different from the late Heresy era, though perhaps not so much in terms of tactics. The question that immediately comes to mind for me is: when does Sigismund institute the practice of Neophytes? That's probably the dividing line between late Heresy and the Scouring for the Templars. Once Sigismund institutes that, they're no longer a legion or a Space Marine Chapter. They're the Black Templars. 

 

 

Very interesting concept. Question for you, how soon after the Siege of Terra ended, did the rout back to the Eye begin? This is generally what I would have considered the beginning of The Scouring, which would imply that Legion type forces would still be in operation.

 

Firstly, thank you for your nice words Honda. I've got plenty more where that came from, I assure you.

 

To your question, I have no idea when the rout back to the Eye of Terror began but I do think I have nailed down the sequence of events based on both in-universe and real-world sources. Also be forewarned that my interpretation of Sigismund, while the product of years of thought and character study, is primarily based on his depictions in John French's books. 

 

1.) Roboute Guilliman arrives in the Sol Sector in the aftermath of the Battle of Terra. The Imperial Fists and presumably, other loyal legions, are already doing the early work of the Scouring and driving Chaos forces out of the core worlds of the Imperium. They are doing this as a legion, but likely already divided into battlegroups that roughly mirror the Second Founding. We know for a fact that Dorn doesn't want to spend time around Sigismund after his perceived betrayal (The Crimson Fist, Praetorian of Dorn).  

 

2.) Guilliman summons the surviving legions to Terra and presents them with the Codex Astartes. 

 

3.) Rogal Dorn and Guilliman nearly enter into a second civil war as Dorn rejects the Codex with the support of Leman Russ. After 7 days of mediation in the Pain Glove, Dorn declares that the Imperial Fists must enter into a legion equivalent of the pain glove and emerge compliant with the Codex. 

 

4.) The Iron Cage occurs. Every source we have says that the Imperial Fists fought this conflict as a legion, and the symbolism of that is awesome. One last fight as brothers, one last fight of a father with his sons. But in truth, I would bet that the legion has already begun forming into what will become the Second Founding. Sigismund and his Sol Sector veterans (again, Praetorian of Dorn) are likely on one battlezone of the Iron Cage, Polux another, and Dorn probably has his most stalwart sons with him. While Dorn sets out to make a grand symbolic gesture of the end of an age (his stated intent, not my interpretation), Sigismund probably sees it as a waste of good men and a petty rivalry. Remember, he has fought and bested champions from all the legions. He hates all the traitors and probably takes a dim view of the rivalry Dorn seeks to settle with Perturabo. Sigismund's relationship with his father Dorn is probably at an all-time low, as he likely sees Dorn's grudging acceptance of the Codex as a betrayal of the original ideals of the Great Crusade. 

 

5.) The Second Founding. Sigismund takes his fanatics and reorganizes them around the Crusade model we all know and love. The Eternal Crusader becomes the flagship of the Black Templars. Someone (I suspect Fafnir Rann) presents Sigismund with the Sword the High Marshals. Sigismund likes the symbolism of the blade, as he sees it as potent example of his Templars succeeding where Dorn failed.

 

"My father broke his blade and swore he would never wield it again. My brothers reforged it and I swore that I will never let it rest." (Source: me. My brain.)

 

6.) Sometime after the Second Founding, Dorn develops the Last Wall protocol (See The Beast Arises series). Sigismund sees this as hypocrisy on Dorn's part, but agrees to it anyway because it basically takes from his own ideas on the Space Marines' role in the new Imperium. Sigimund sees Dorn make such a grand (and wasteful) gesture of accepting the Codex with the Iron Cage, yet the Last Wall and its legion-esque overtones of that idea show that Dorn isn't really as committed to the idea of the Codex as he presents himself to be. By this point, Sigismund has already begun making the Templars into a Chapter that openly defies the Codex in both doctrine and law.  

 

Somewhere at steps 4 or 5, the system of Neophytes and Initiates emerge. I theorize that Sigismund creates this system because of what he is building the Templars for: crusading and repelling the traitors' inevitable counter-attack (Talon of Horus). The Codex Astartes, in Sigismund's view, doesn't place enough emphasis on fighting and defeating other Astartes, so he rectifies that by creating a system where each new member of the Chapter will learn from one Astartes mentor. They will spar together, meditate together, and fight together. All the while the young Space Marine is learning more and more about how to fight other Astartes through sparring and close observation of their assigned Initiate with their perfect memory. 

 

On a related note, my dream is to write a 20-part novel series that stretches from the end of the Battle of Terra past the death of Sigismund, if you can't already tell.