Silver Skulls

[Spiky Norman]

Whether founded directly with Ultramarine gene seed or by loyalist Iron Warriors under the auspices of Big Bobby G, I really like the association with Barabas Dantioch. Given that the bold heraldry fits so well with current lore, I hope the GW fluffsmiths give due honour to this inspirational idea

It's probably a bit heritical, but I went so far as to drop the "IV" on the banner to refer back to the IV Legion, as well as reproduce the hazard stripe on the bottom part of the banner alongside the blue and white of the Ultramarines as well - A few not-so-subtle-hints to the theory of their origin :-)

[SickSix]

So I just reread the last few pages of Portents. Mrs. Cawkwell really left us on a cliff-hanger. I wonder if we will ever get anther book. I at least want to see where SGT Ur'ten ends up.

 

Whats in the data crystal could be anything. But I think it has more to do with their librarians than their founding. I don't know, it's really a good mystery.

 

I am trying to understand how Iron Warrior gene-seed would 'split' the chapter. The current tension in the chapter is portrayed as those that have ultimate faith in the Prognasticatum and those that do not.

 

To me finding out you have traitor legion gene-seed would damn everyone? They would all be in the same boat right?

 

PS. Also this video was just released this morning discussing the mysterious origin of the Silver Skulls:

https://youtu.be/NKk1ygMI70U

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think have traitor geneseed is necessarily a bad thing for a loyalist successor chapter - I’m thinking Black Shields.

[Spiky Norman]

I don’t think have traitor geneseed is necessarily a bad thing for a loyalist successor chapter - I’m thinking Black Shields.

Well in the current hyper superstitious, paranoid and desperate Imperium, having any sort of link to the traitor legions are probably enough to motivate powerful forces to eliminate the suspect - Just to be sure. :-)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You know there are rumors that SS worship the God of Change.

[Brother Clavero]

You know there are rumors that SS worship the God of Change.

 

HERESY!! Where do you come by this information??!!  And when you finish spouting this heretical pap, report to room 101 and sit in the BLUE chair!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here ya go ...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320991-the-silver-skulls-conspiracy/page-2

[Kinstryfe]

But you were also the only one in that thread to mention that conspiracy. So you mentioned the conspiracy, and as proof posted a link to a thread where you... mentioned a conspiracy. So that's not really proof that people think that, just that you think that I'm multiple places.

 

If that theory does exist elsewhere, it's likely based on nothing more than the fact that they use divination abilities, and seeing and influencing the future is a common Tzeentch thing, but they could very well be Khorne worshippers because they take skulls, which is a Khorne thing. But by that same logic the Blood Angels obviously worship Khorne because they're really good at fighting, the Ultramarines worship Slaanesh because they try to excel at everything, and the Imperial Fists worship Nurgle because they like to dig in and get really hard to kill.

 

On the original topic, since the Silver Skulls were around pre-Dantioch, it's likely another case of reverse engineering lore possibilities. They could be descended from those of the IVth allied with the Ultramarines, though would likely only make up a tiny portion of the chapter or could have purposely been denied the option of passing on their geneseed in which case it would have just been a one generation mystery. Either way they are very likely mostly if not entirely Ultramarines successors by this point just because that's what has been written of them, unless a lot more hints get dropped that they aren't. Give them a Relic mask that belonged to a celebrated Hero of the Heresy, one of the greatest engineers ever to have lived and staunch ally of Roboute Guilliman, a mention that they have weirdly high geneseed acceptance rates, and a penchant for rational and analytical thinking, and then maybe we can be sure of them being Iron Warriors successors :)

[SickSix]

 

On the original topic, since the Silver Skulls were around pre-Dantioch, it's likely another case of reverse engineering lore possibilities. They could be descended from those of the IVth allied with the Ultramarines, though would likely only make up a tiny portion of the chapter or could have purposely been denied the option of passing on their geneseed in which case it would have just been a one generation mystery. Either way they are very likely mostly if not entirely Ultramarines successors by this point just because that's what has been written of them, unless a lot more hints get dropped that they aren't. Give them a Relic mask that belonged to a celebrated Hero of the Heresy, one of the greatest engineers ever to have lived and staunch ally of Roboute Guilliman, a mention that they have weirdly high geneseed acceptance rates, and a penchant for rational and analytical thinking, and then maybe we can be sure of them being Iron Warriors successors :)

Where do you get they existed before Dantioch? His story is pre-Imperium Secundus. That is pretty damn early in the Heresy timline.

[Kinstryfe]

 

On the original topic, since the Silver Skulls were around pre-Dantioch, it's likely another case of reverse engineering lore possibilities. They could be descended from those of the IVth allied with the Ultramarines, though would likely only make up a tiny portion of the chapter or could have purposely been denied the option of passing on their geneseed in which case it would have just been a one generation mystery. Either way they are very likely mostly if not entirely Ultramarines successors by this point just because that's what has been written of them, unless a lot more hints get dropped that they aren't. Give them a Relic mask that belonged to a celebrated Hero of the Heresy, one of the greatest engineers ever to have lived and staunch ally of Roboute Guilliman, a mention that they have weirdly high geneseed acceptance rates, and a penchant for rational and analytical thinking, and then maybe we can be sure of them being Iron Warriors successors :)

Where do you get they existed before Dantioch? His story is pre-Imperium Secundus. That is pretty damn early in the Heresy timline.

Real world timeline, not setting timeline :)

[SickSix]

Ah sorry. I triggered off that one statement without reading further. I get touchy about my chosen chapter. Forgive me.

 

But you realise half the lore we have now was reverse- engineered, right? Its a very common practise in 40k/30k.

 

You made good points though. This is all speculation at this point. Really some of us just want Dantiochs legacy to live on. And the SS have enough mystery to allow the conspiracy to live.

 

Unless Mrs. Cawkwell or another author gives us more dedicated SS fiction, this is as far as we can take the discussion.

[Kinstryfe]

I'd wager much more than half. The whole Heresy setting is based on reverse engineered snippets. It's a fascinating study in that, I don't know many other settings as large that had to work ever expandingly backwards like they have.

 

Honestly, I love the idea of loyalists looking out for loyalists. It's like Deathwatch blackshields, if their intentions are right then let em in. So for me I've always thought that loyalist chapters of traitor legions are probably (or at least were probably during the 2nd founding) not at all uncommon. Of course I also have a feeling that logistically, there were either a huge number of 2nd founding Chapters, or they started much larger than they are now and just lost numbers to attrition or division, but that's a whole other story. But it seems to me that while some factions in the Imperium were content to write off entire Legions as innately corrupt (nature), others were happy to acknowledge that it was fully possible for large groups of those legions to be as loyal as anyone, and I'd wager that more than a few groups during the second founding were either A) made of loyalist remnants of large traitor Legion armies, B) saw the value of some of those heroes and adopted their beliefs as their own, or C) harbored at least some loyalists within their number.

 

In the case of Dantioch, while I feel it is unlikely that the Silver Skulls are of Iron Warriors geneseed, I feel it's likely that either the surviving loyalist Iron Warriors of his band were included in their raising during the Second Founding, they were formed with Dantioch in mind possibly by Ultramarines veterans who had served with or near him, or history was Blue Washed. After all, Dantioch was completely accepted by Guilliman into his Legion. It isn't a stretch to say, for example, "The Silver Skulls chapter was formed during the Second Founding out of the Ultramarines XYZ chapter/company. They revere a great Ultramarine hero of the Heresy as their spiritual leige, one of the greatest analytical minds to ever join the Legion who was instrumental in the Ultramarines navigating the ruinstorm and eventually making way to Terra." We may know that it's talking about an Iron Warrior, but to everyone else he was simply an amazing hero of Ultramar. Technically correct, the best kind of correct :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seriously I don't know why it bothers some people that could be traitors.

[SickSix]

Seriously I don't know why it bothers some people that could be traitors.

There are some problems with your above statement.

 

1. Who are you refering to as 'people'? Posters here?

 

2. What do you mean by 'traitors'? This whole discussion is about there possible traitor legion loyalists origins. But there is ZERO evidence of them being traitors against the Emperor, now or ever.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm thinking Black Orange is a Alpha Legion infiltrator 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

hahaha I hate AL .

[Brother Tyler]

hahaha I hate AL .

Which is exactly what an AL infiltrator would say in order to attempt to throw the hounds off the scent.  

 

Getting back on topic, I'll quote myself from a similar discussion:

 

My opinion (until official lore adjusts it) is that the Silver Skulls are descended from the Ultramarines Legion, just as the official lore says. However, the Iron Warriors of Dantioch's contingent that survived the Horus Heresy and the Scouring through to the 2nd Founding were probably part of the core leadership of the nascent Chapter. They, thus, heavily influenced the traditions and doctrine of the Silver Skulls, resulting in the complex Chapter that we know today. However, some of the current Chapter's traits were not a direct result of Iron Warriors Legion influence, but were evolutionary over the millennia. So there's probably no Iron Warrior gene-seed involved, merely teachings. It would be interesting if the Silver Skulls have some sarcophagi of some ancient Iron Warriors secreted away deep within their fortress-monastery. I could potentially see a few relics of those surviving Iron Warriors, possibly even items used by modern Silver Skulls Space Marines.

 

The theory that Roboute Guilliman incorporated the "survival" of the loyalists from the traitor legions into the new Chapter structure of the Codex Astartes is interesting, though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the re-structuring was based solely upon that purpose. I'd say it was merely a fortuitous coincidence that Guilliman took advantage of. If that is what happened, that is.

 

I'm curious if, with Roboute Guilliman's return, any revelations will be made concerning this mystery and others, questions about events that we can now pose to the actor responsible for them.

[Brother Lunkhead]

In response to Brother Tyler's interesting post, I'm sure the SS could pose this question to Guilliman, but would they feel the need to do so? I suspect probably not. After almost 10,000 years I'm thinking such issues have probably been lost to antiquity. While I suspect that loyalist IW gene-seed was not incorporated into the SS gene stock I would not be at all surprised if IWs made up a portion of the initial command cadre and had some influence in developing doctrine and traditions.

 

I'll pose another idea. Given the respect Guilliman held for Dantioch, I wonder if his gene-seed might have been preserved and implanted in one SS as a tribute, or a least preserved in stasis to be implanted at a later date. Perhaps some Primaris captain (or tech-marine) has Dantioch's gene-seed. This would have to be carefully documented and kept from general knowledge. This of coarse is just idle speculation on my part, but it would make for interesting "secret" chapter lore.