The Emperor being a jerk and that final Emp v Horus showdown

[DukeLeto69]

I originally posted this in "best books of 2016" but it was off topic so thought I would start a new thread.

 

People were discussing MoM and why the Emperor behaves in certain ways etc so...

 

*****

Emperor being a jerk (subjective that is of course)

I have another theory about why the Emperor acts the way he does at any point. The problem with this theory is that it is too close to the Dune universe and as such probably isn't the case. However, it WOULD WORK very well as an explanation...

The Emperor is prescient. In other words he can tell the future. Now as the future is not set and can be influenced (as the Eldar know and do) then He knows that he needs to nudge someone a certain way, win or lose a battle at a certain time etc to achieve his goals.

In God Emperor of Dune, Leto has deliberately set himself up as a tyrant that suppresses the human race. This is because he can see the infinitesimal number of possible futures and knows that only one "path" to the future will actually result in the human race continuing rather than becoming extinct. He calls this "The Golden Path" but to achieve it one of the things he must do is orchestrate his own death and the massed rebellion and dispersal of the human race. He does this by being extremely repressive.

So what is the 30k Emperor has a similar "dilemma" with how to save the human race? What if he has seen all possible futures and knows that to achieve his goals he has to be a bit of a jerk? He needs Horus to go against him. He needs certain Primarchs to side with Horus and others to remain loyal. He therefore needs to manipulate situations and treat his sons in certain ways to ensure they are "nudged" towards his required path to the future!

Now my next connected theory is pure fanboy speculation about something *I* think would be cool but I have no evidence to back is up...

Personally I like the idea that The Emperor wanted/needed to become a God all along. Forget the fact there are chaos Gods, they are just Gods and they exist due to the emotions, behaviour and worship of quadrillions of sentient beings (mostly human). So what if to become a God it means The Emperor needs to be worshipped in the same way. What if his denial of divinity was part of his "Golden Path" knowing that denying divinity would ultimately result in his ascension to Godhood! If he can foretell the future he will know his mortal body all but dies in the fight with Horus but that outcome would be his desired intention.

Why?

Because to provide salvation to the human race and prevent extinction He needs to be in the warp constantly at war with the other Gods and to maintain his position in the pantheon he needs to be worshipped. And self sacrifice is an almost sure way to ensure veneration (look at Jesus).

Ergo...

What was the "deal" He cut with the (Chaos) Gods? What if He tricked them? Or even more bold what if he claimed he must be one of them? What if he made it clear to them that their very existence relies on the continuing existence of the human race and that only he can protect them from extinction in 10,000 years time. What if the Gods are all playing the grand game in their own way but recognise that while one may have the upper hand at any given time, all of them need to exist for the others to exist.

Like Slaanesh being a relative newcomer to the pantheon so The Emperor would be the next God!

Also, ever wondered why it is an eight pointed star of chaos? Will there ultimately be eight Gods? The Emperor being number five? ( yes I know in reality that the eight pointed star was copied/reference to Michael Moorcock).

So in my little personal 30k/40k belief system I like the idea that the War in the Webway was actually more a War in the Warp and that it is still raging in the "present". The corpse God is actually anything but...his mortal body is a husk but his mind/spirit is still fiercly fighting a war in the warp to save humanity from extinction...and he draws his power from the worship of quadrillions of humans.

 

That also ties into the idea of Avatars of the Emperor, like the Solar Priest that appeared in Talon of Horus. I like the idea the the multi-faceted consciousness of the Emperor is able to be in many many places at once, steering and manipulating events to keep everything on his path.

Just an idea! 

 

 

The FINAL EMP v HORUS showdown

 

This is just an idea about how I think it would be cool to see that final showdown pan out in the last HH novel (again pure wishlisting/speculation)...

 

We all know that time passes differently in the warp compared to real space. I think generally it is portrayed as passing more slowly because the Traitor Legions/Marines are fighting the long war and for them the HH is a more recent memory (ie centuries have passed rather than millennia). 

 

But this is not actually the case. Time passes "differently". So...

 

I like the idea of the Emperor and Horus fighting two different battles simultaneously. One in the mortal/realspace realm and another in the warp battling psychically.

 

The former may last 10-30 minutes and be an awesome martial display to anyone watching but the battle in the warp actually lasts days, weeks or months. They not only fight each other but lead giant battles, sieges etc. They also have quiet moments when they can parley and converse and the Emperor shows Horus how he has been tricked (as per above theory and the Emperor needing him for his ascension)

 

In the mortal realm what is perceived as the Emperor being sad about having to kill Horus is actually his pity that he has had to use Horus (and his other sons) and sacrifice them for the greater good of humanity.

 

Obviously there is a precedent with Horus fighting wars in the warp for the Chaos Gods favour.

 

****

 

So what do people think? Any other theories?

 

 

[HeritorA]

Omg - you really did that? I thought it would be Vader post ;)

 

But yeah - definitely where should be mental/dreamscape battle  and physical battle on mortal plain.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I very much like the idea of the Emperor behaving in a certain way to ensure the correct future happens. It plays quite nicely into the whole Loyalist Alpha Legion thing too which I find interesting.

 

For example, if, like you said, the Emperor can see the future and knows that a certain path will ensure the survival of humanity, thus allowing everything to go as it did.

 

What if that was his special interest in the Alpha Legion? If he knew what the Cabal would go on to tell them (the Emperor must die for Chaos to lose) and so trained them accordingly and allowed it to happen so that they could turn against him (sort of) and ensure his plan is enacted from the inside.

 

That's an interesting possibility.

[HeritorA]

I very much like the idea of the Emperor behaving in a certain way to ensure the correct future happens. It plays quite nicely into the whole Loyalist Alpha Legion thing too which I find interesting.

 

For example, if, like you said, the Emperor can see the future and knows that a certain path will ensure the survival of humanity, thus allowing everything to go as it did.

 

What if that was his special interest in the Alpha Legion? If he knew what the Cabal would go on to tell them (the Emperor must die for Chaos to lose) and so trained them accordingly and allowed it to happen so that they could turn against him (sort of) and ensure his plan is enacted from the inside.

 

That's an interesting possibility.

Outcast Dead directly state that Emperor can see the future. But we all know that 'Outcast dead is a very strange book' - Magnus incartion/warp time/paradox yada yada :)

[Marshal Rohr]

My main objection to the theory the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen is the removal of human agency from the narrative. A far seeing puppet master pulling strings and manipulating events to achieve an outcome is, in my opinion, an overused narrative. You see this or variants of it, as you mentioned, in Dune. Also, Sauron, Emperor Palpatine, even Classical Mythologies like Hercules or the Illiad. I think this is partly because humans are conspiratorial by nature. We invent reasons for things happening when there is nothing but natural forces causing events to happen.

 

From my point of view, you don't need the Emperor to formulate and manipulate a two hundred year conspiracy to have his own Primarchs turn on him. History, since he lived through it, would've taught him that eventually entropy and civil war are inevitable from the beginning of any endeavor. He would've seen how Napoleon, Augustus, Alexanders Generals, the Sultans, the Emperor's of China, the United States, all of European history, eventually led to exactly where he ended up because of the corrupting influence of power. Any modicum of power over another human being will lead to conflict eventually.

 

The creation of the Primarchs would've been a cost/benefit analysis for him. He would know by creating twenty beings who could each individually lead the human race (though not as well as he himself could have) that one day some would turn on him, not because he manipulated them into it, but because nature trends towards equilibrium and twenty one god like beings ruling an empire unbalances the natural equilibrium. For a real world example, democracy isn't about sunshine and rainbows where one man, one vote is a human right. It's about specifically limiting the ability of the natural equilibrium of power in the state to rebalance at frequent intervals to prevent absolutism. In the Imperium, Primarchs only grow in absolute power over time, because there is only the edict of the Emperor to overrule them, and eventually they will amass enough of their own power to force a confrontation. So when the emperor created them, he would've known he'd fight them eventually, but his need for generals outweighed the damage they would eventually do.

 

What he could not have known was that the only force in the universe equal to his own would so adeptly out maneuver him. He thought they would kill him, when their goal was in fact to force him into a scenario where he was unable to die and be reborn while being unable to continue his work to cut the ties between humanity and the warp.

 

So overall, I don't think a conspiracy is needed to explain human nature. The tragedy, to me, is greater when humanity fails because of human nature, not schemes. When a murderer kills a child, it is sad but everyone knows the murderer is more than likely sick or evil. When a drunk driver kills a child, people are more upset because they should know better and that is what this situation is. Chaos is evil, it will be evil for the sake of evil. Horus turning because of ambition mixed with the belief that he was doing the right thing is human nature and far more tragic.

 

 

All my opinion, not claiming any special truth or trying to invalidate opposing opinions. :)

[MrDarth151]

The thing is though: Leaving out the Emperor of Horus Heresy does not increase human agency in the setting, as we already have the master manipulators whose plans go without a hitch: Chaos Gods.

 

The idea at least provides agency to the Master of Mankind, instead of making him another pawn in the games of Gods.

[Wulfburk]

Its the theory i prefer the most. The Emperor chose the path that humanity had the best chance of survival, and that best possible future is the imperium in 40k, besieged by all sides and within, and to have that the horus heresy was a tool used by him while fooling the chaos gods that they were gonna have it all on their way. Thats what makes it awesome IMO. Like the Emperor said, "if you cannot win, you gotta at least keep the opponent from winning. Stalemate". :)

 

 

Making him a pawn or just a clueless  being ruins it for me.

[MrDarth151]

Its the theory i prefer the most. The Emperor chose the path that humanity had the best chance of survival, and that best possible future is the imperium in 40k, besieged by all sides and within, and to have that the horus heresy was a tool used by him while fooling the chaos gods that they were gonna have it all on their way. Thats what makes it awesome IMO. Like the Emperor said, "if you cannot win, you gotta at least keep the opponent from winning. Stalemate".

Making him a pawn or just a clueless being ruins it for me.

Shame that the Master of Mankind completely invalidates it.

[Xisor]

It's not a little Foundation-y/psychohistory either, all told.

 

Add to that an edge of His vision being imperfect, and you've got a great combination. He can see the future imperfectly, he can see a few options that look to be the best paths, with odd necessities about them, but he can't always rely on it.

 

Well, he *must* rely on it (which informs Sanguinius and Curze too), but he hasn't got a better tool. The only way to win is not to play. As suggested in "Path of Heaven" and again in "Master of Mankind::

 

Utilising the Webway and Warp portals and Warp Gates is the only way to bypass the very heart of Chaos- to take them out of the equation. Just settling for retiring to a garden for an easy life won't cut it. It'll turn out to be Nurgle's garden and on fire with psycheneuein at your picnic nicking your sandwiches and sanity.

 

In short: every step that's not towards the ultimate defeat of Chaos is a waste of time.

 

 

Of course, the ends of the novels have their own consequences therein - but it has great parallels with what Magnus was trying too, and arguably Mortarion, Yesugei, and Russ.

 

Did they get unlucky and *just* fail, or were they all a bit Cnutty, fighting an irresistible tide?

 

---

 

Personally, I like a fusion of both the cosmic and the prosaic.

 

The Emperor didn't make a literal "deal with Chaos", no faustian pact or daft loophole. His pact, such as it ever was, was nothing so arch or grand.

 

Rather, I'd contend: psychic powers (which the Grey Knights Codex helpfully asserted is fundamentally indistinguishable from sorcery and magic). In crafting the Primarchs and whatnot, in chaining the Dragon to Mars (literal or metaphorical), in living as long as He has (in perpetuity?), in projecting little tricks.

 

All of that is taken from Chaos. Either He's stealing it or they're all in cahoots. Depending on your perspective, accepting a 'least bad' option that gives best hope on your Golden Path is making a deal with the enemy.

 

If you're a daemon, all of that can both poetically, sincerely, and earnestly be called "making a deal with Chaos". He made a magic rune-spoon? Cahoots with Hhaos.

 

So there needn't be a specific dealership. There needing be one moment where he says "I'll give you half of my sons and my own body...". He takes his power, Chaos writes down its price. But that's true of anyone and everyone.

 

Any psychic shenanigans, Chaos has you.

 

But Chaos had you anyway.

MoM again:

 

That's kind of the point of The First Murder, the End of Empires, surely. Even if the Imperium lasts a million years or more [like the Eldar Empire], it's still going to be Chaos at the Emperor's (and humanoty, to which He has entangled himself inextricably with) end. Specifically: Drach'nyen.

 

How's that for a spoiler? Now you know how it feels.

 

[Scribe]

Its the theory i prefer the most. The Emperor chose the path that humanity had the best chance of survival, and that best possible future is the imperium in 40k, besieged by all sides and within, and to have that the horus heresy was a tool used by him while fooling the chaos gods that they were gonna have it all on their way. Thats what makes it awesome IMO. Like the Emperor said, "if you cannot win, you gotta at least keep the opponent from winning. Stalemate".

Making him a pawn or just a clueless being ruins it for me.

Shame that the Master of Mankind completely invalidates it.

No it doesnt. The whole story has yet to be told, we know that Plan A is certainly gone, and that as it stands at this moment the Emperor (who is not infalliable) believes all is lost.

[Sete]

Wait wait wait.

What if he could actually destroy the Daemon of Murder.

But chose to imprision just so he can be "killed" and then reborn? Since he is a perpetual?

The throne worked without the Emperor being there, with the psykers sacrifice.

I personally like the theory that he was playing the long game and intends to ascend to Godhood.

The Eldars have gods in the warp. The Orks have aswell. Why humanity can't?

The trillions of humans that worship the god of mankind, that must affect the warp in someway.

Maybe after 10 thousand years, Abbadon will complete his work killing the mortal husk of the Emperor so he can ascend?

Mankind will never be free from chaos, but chaos won't consume humanity because the Emperor protects. A stalemate.

We don't know what the Emperor wants to do.

We only know from the point of view of those around him, and even so everyone sees something different.

He considers Horus revolution an annoyance at best, the Webway project WAS what mattered.

He lost that battle. Now he has to make his move for the stalemate. Become a God.

[MrDarth151]

Its the theory i prefer the most. The Emperor chose the path that humanity had the best chance of survival, and that best possible future is the imperium in 40k, besieged by all sides and within, and to have that the horus heresy was a tool used by him while fooling the chaos gods that they were gonna have it all on their way. Thats what makes it awesome IMO. Like the Emperor said, "if you cannot win, you gotta at least keep the opponent from winning. Stalemate".

Making him a pawn or just a clueless being ruins it for me.

Shame that the Master of Mankind completely invalidates it.

No it doesnt. The whole story has yet to be told, we know that Plan A is certainly gone, and that as it stands at this moment the Emperor (who is not infalliable) believes all is lost.

Yes it does, because it is confirmed by the ADB that ultimate fate of humanity is the destruction by Chaos and that was then validated by Laurie Goulding.

My entire criticism of that point being raised in the afterword was that it invalidates any possibility of anything other than ultimate Chaos victory. I got told that it was the point. You were there, agreeing with that, so I don't really see why are you now arguing against it.

[Scribe]

That (Chaos winning) always being the ultimate fate isnt the point here, and as noted previously should never have been in question.

 

It doesnt invalidate the statement you where answering about the Emperor angling for stalemate, it doesnt invalidate that the Emperor may or may not have been a Chaos Pawn.

 

So nope, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

And if chaos wins. What can they feed on? We forget malal and his secret interest.

 

The God of black and white weirdly only sees grey.

[MrDarth151]

That (Chaos winning) always being the ultimate fate isnt the point here, and as noted previously should never have been in question.

 

It doesnt invalidate the statement you where answering about the Emperor angling for stalemate, it doesnt invalidate that the Emperor may or may not have been a Chaos Pawn.

 

So nope, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

 

I am not, as the point of the idea was to achieve an eternal stalemate and deny Chaos Gods their victory. This, as we now know, is impossible.

 

There is really no agency to any faction when one is set to win no matter what. Every plan undertaken will fail. Efforts of every faction other than Chaos Gods will be in vain. That is the entire point of 40k.

 

We cannot even make comparison to entropy, as entropy is not a tabletop faction or intetionally malevolent force that wants to torture souls of every living being in the universe.

[Arkangilos]

I swear you don't listen to anyone but yourself and you selectively take parts of what they said.

 

The "ultimate victory for chaos" WAS SPECIFICALLY SAID to be more like when the universe is set to expire, LIKE SCIENTISTS IN REAL LIFE SAID.

 

Laurie even made a point on how it was chaos WITH A LITTLE C, not Chaos.

 

In terms of this book, Chaos won because they stopped plan A. They achieved their goal. But that in no way means that the Emperor doesn't achieve any secondary goals, such as preventing Chaos from toppling the Imperium.

 

And I'm tired of this, "but chaos wins in the end so it doesn't matter" crap you are spewing. You WILL die. There is nothing you can do about it. Death WILL win over you. Does that mean you don't have agency? If you applied the same logic you have towards the game to real life, then your life is meaningless, and there is no point for you to keep arguing this. I mean, it won't matter. Your words will be forgotten, you will be forgotten, and you won't win against us in an argument. So why even post here at all?

 

Even if the people in Imperium knows it's hopeless, they won't stop because who cares? When it's gone it's gone, but they will fight because they are in the moment. They give themselves purpose, they give themselves a reason.

[Scribe]

 

That (Chaos winning) always being the ultimate fate isnt the point here, and as noted previously should never have been in question.

 

It doesnt invalidate the statement you where answering about the Emperor angling for stalemate, it doesnt invalidate that the Emperor may or may not have been a Chaos Pawn.

 

So nope, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

 

I am not, as the point of the idea was to achieve an eternal stalemate and deny Chaos Gods their victory. This, as we now know, is impossible.

 

There is really no agency to any faction when one is set to win no matter what. Every plan undertaken will fail. Efforts of every faction other than Chaos Gods will be in vain. That is the entire point of 40k.

 

We cannot even make comparison to entropy, as entropy is not a tabletop faction or intetionally malevolent force that wants to torture souls of every living being in the universe.

 

 

If the Emperor's Plan B is to effect a Stalemate, and for 10000+ years it holds, that could still be HIS plan. So again the point you had chosen to answer, you are incorrect on.

 

Every plan will not fail. Many plans succeed on a daily 40K basis. Many plans actually succeed for the lifetime of the person who put them into motion.

 

Why you insist on these absolutes (Chaos wins eventually) being in effect now, in the immediate (30K or 40K) story, when everyone and their dog is telling you its an eventuality, is beyond me.

[Karthak]

That (Chaos winning) always being the ultimate fate isnt the point here, and as noted previously should never have been in question.

Chaos is just one of at least eight playable factions, so it seems a bit weird to tell the fans of the others that they might as well pack their bags and go home, since the warp-weirdos are inevitably taking the cup, no matter what.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ark has discovered Nihilism :D

[Scribe]

Its not weird at all Karthak, when its been the story for as long as I've read it. :p

[Karthak]

Its not weird at all Karthak, when its been the story for as long as I've read it.

Then you and I have been reading different stories. Besides, like I said, there are at least eight playable factions (if you clump all the Imperials together), and Chaos is by no means the biggest, sales-wise. It just gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see one faction shilled above the others like that. "Shudders as he remembers the End Times."

[Mellow]

The Emperor could see the future.

 

The Emperor knew He would be killed by Horus.

 

The Emperor didn't appear to have a Plan B with the Webway access lost.

 

The Emperor didn't want the HH to happen.

[Scribe]

Seeing the Future in 40K is not the same as seeing every possible future. The story even makes it plain that he cannot account for everything (Climb Ra)

Its not weird at all Karthak, when its been the story for as long as I've read it.

Then you and I have been reading different stories. Besides, like I said, there are at least eight playable factions (if you clump all the Imperials together), and Chaos is by no means the biggest, sales-wise. It just gives me a bad taste in my mouth to see one faction shilled above the others like that. "Shudders as he remembers the End Times."

Fair enough, I found it refreshing that after how many years of 'every year the Chaos armies come faster and in greater number and its only a matter of time until they wash over the world.'' that they finally did it.

A shame they replaced it with AoS, but I hear some people like settings where Good can triumph over Evil.

[MrDarth151]

The comparison between Chaos and entropy is entirely missing the point. Because Chaos Gods are not entropic. Entropy is neutral. Yes, everything will eventually die in the heat death of the universe. That is not the fate of 40k, however, which is the point that people are missing.

 

The entire things relies on ignoring metaphysics of the universe. If you live in 40k, you are adding strength to the Dark Gods. If you have a family in 40k, the moment your children are born, they are doomed to be tortured in the eternity by the neverborn. Every effort you put towards saving the Imperium of Mankind dooms more and more people to eternal damnation, because there is no alternative to eternal damnation in this universe.

 

There, the point of struggle is... what, exactly?

[Marshal Rohr]

The struggle is Boromir's death. Chaos is the Uruk-Hai. The chieftain (Abaddon) is killing him. But Boromir is still swinging his sword. Every time he kills an Uruk, that's an imperial battle group breaking a chaos invasion. Every time he's hit with an arrow the size of a branch, that's Abaddon achieving a victory. You know his wounds will kill him, but he's kicking ass anyway. There are two types of people: the kind that watch that scene and cry because the good guy died and the bad guy won, and the people who cry because Boromir died a good death and there is honor in that. 40k is best viewed the second way. A good death is a victory all it's own.