Help with chapter origins

[bloodhound23]

Liber friends-

 

I have spent some time working on ideas for a renegade force. I have a name and everything but need direction when it comes to my origins. I want a ragtag group of headhunters from a world that practices some gnarly forms of divination, specifically haruspicy. 

 

There are decent ways to draw this line through the lore already. 

 

I had considered something like a Typhus story, except where the less orthodox psyker hides some of his interest in more esoteric practices throughout his LIbariarus training, only to reveal it fairly late in the game. Here I think of Executioners, or, perhaps, Mortifactors or Silver Skulls? I don't know nearly enough about each chapter's respective fluffs to know whether or not they are relatively lenient with beliefs from aspirants' homeworlds being syncretized into the Imperial Creed.

 

The other option is to invent a loyalist chapter from scratch, have them be particularly lenient towards a few of the native practices (headhunting, divination by haruspicy) and then set up a fall from grace via the actions of my rogue psyker.

 

The second option provides less difficulty for me when it comes to explaining how my renegade warband ends up with skulltakers and 150+ marines, but requires significantly more effort when it comes to articulating a unique backstory that doesn't end up just rehashing some familiar feral world-recruiting gone (obviously in hindsight) horribly and predictably wrong. It does, however, provide more control over some backstory stuff that (depending on whether the first option can work) is probably non-negotiable. 

 

Anyway, all this to say, any ideas?

 

P.S. My rogue LIbrarian is not (to my/his credit) just a case of some theoretical difficulties getting him into administrative trouble. There is nothing endearingly tragic about him. He will be thoroughly evil, albeit cunning enough to wait for the right moment for betrayal, whatever that will end up being. 

 

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Librarians will be constantly monitored for signs of Chaos-taint, to a far greater degree than any other Space Marine in a Chapter- at least in those with competent leaders. If he suddenly turns to Chaos, it will be an act of desperation- one the entire Chapter will feel (see the Soul Drinkers being declared Traitors, due to a conflict with the Adeptus Mechanicus). You need to be a skilled writer to pull off something like what you propose, or your rogue Librarian will be declared a Villain Sue, and you will be mocked for this.

[Draakur]

While it's true there will always be some monitoring, I think there are a decent amount of ways around this.

 

Perhaps he's Chief Librarian, and considered above such treatment?

 

Maybe the Librarius overall is considered so sacrosanct in the Chapter that nobody has ever dared insult them with the suggestion they could be anything but blessed and in communion with the Emperor?

 

Perhaps via logistical error/sudden campaign shift/crusade of some sort your Sorceror has been far afield for a long period of time... away from the prying eyes of anyone senior or capable enough to notice his changes while he makes most of his shift to Chaos?

 

Maybe he even corrupts the rest of the Librarius along with him so there's nobody to run to Mum about it?

 

Looking forward to seeing this progress, and I'll help where I can. Big fan of the themes you're making use of here :tu:

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Isolation from the rest of the Chapter, due to the demands of an extended campaign, is the best explanation for why a Librarian isn't being monitored. In a desperate battle, other Marines might even think, "It had to be done," or "We must fight fire with fire," and turn the other way if the Librarian uses potentially Chaos-tainted techniques to defeat their enemies.

 

Any other explanation will paint the Chapter's leaders as incompetent- an extremely out-of-character trait for Space Marines- meaning your Chaos Sorcerer will be denounced as a "Villain Sue".

[Lysimachus]

Silver Skulls do seem like a potentially good choice, given the high emphasis they place on their Librarians foretellings in creating their battle plans (they're called Prognosticators if my memory is right?).

 

I'd agree with others that if you're looking for 150+ Marines, a strike force of a Battle Co. plus various support seems about right. It also seems likely that a Chief Librarian (or Epistolary) might be given command of such a force, especially if the Chapter venerates them.

 

Maybe if you did use the Silver Skulls, it'd be worth dropping the timeline of their betrayal further back into the 10,000 years of history, as being traitors they could still be around but you wouldn't have to explain why the betrayal of a sizeable chunk of the Chapter isn't a bigger deal in the present official fluff?

[bloodhound23]

Librarians will be constantly monitored for signs of Chaos-taint, to a far greater degree than any other Space Marine in a Chapter- at least in those with competent leaders. If he suddenly turns to Chaos, it will be an act of desperation- one the entire Chapter will feel (see the Soul Drinkers being declared Traitors, due to a conflict with the Adeptus Mechanicus). You need to be a skilled writer to pull off something like what you propose, or your rogue Librarian will be declared a Villain Sue, and you will be mocked for this.

Ack. I know. This is apparently why people are interested in using this device and I suppose why it so often fails.

I was not familiar with the "Villain Sue", many thanks for noticing the parallels and pointing it out.

This is why I'm hesitant to try and get this force out of another chapter I come up with myself, as I'd have to come up with novel explanations for why the chapter already reveres their Librarians and why they might be less scrutinized that usual.

While it's true there will always be some monitoring, I think there are a decent amount of ways around this.

Perhaps he's Chief Librarian, and considered above such treatment?

Maybe the Librarius overall is considered so sacrosanct in the Chapter that nobody has ever dared insult them with the suggestion they could be anything but blessed and in communion with the Emperor?

Perhaps via logistical error/sudden campaign shift/crusade of some sort your Sorceror has been far afield for a long period of time... away from the prying eyes of anyone senior or capable enough to notice his changes while he makes most of his shift to Chaos?

Maybe he even corrupts the rest of the Librarius along with him so there's nobody to run to Mum about it?

Looking forward to seeing this progress, and I'll help where I can. Big fan of the themes you're making use of here

I think I need all of these, with maybe a little leeway on the last one. I could imagine a larger force being out and about for a good while, and the higher-up dies, maybe, or if I want to do an early heel-turn, he could be assassinated by my rogue Librarian. If the force was large enough, or the message strong enough, it seems like it could be the case that there's good reason to just go AWOL right then and there.

On the other hand, to corrupt a larger force you'd need all of this, I think, and it'd have to be slow. It'd have to, I think (and thanks to Commissar Molotov http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/) require the slow overlooking of practices from a change in the recruiting world. And the change in recruiting world would have to itself be sort of desperate, otherwise there'd be no chance that this practice on this planet would ever count as one that would be sufficient to found a chapter using. Of course the High Lords make those mistakes from time to time, but that route is trope-ier than I'd like to try and pull off.

Isolation from the rest of the Chapter, due to the demands of an extended campaign, is the best explanation for why a Librarian isn't being monitored. In a desperate battle, other Marines might even think, "It had to be done," or "We must fight fire with fire," and turn the other way if the Librarian uses potentially Chaos-tainted techniques to defeat their enemies.

Any other explanation will paint the Chapter's leaders as incompetent- an extremely out-of-character trait for Space Marines- meaning your Chaos Sorcerer will be denounced as a "Villain Sue".

Yes. I think that's my best route. Same problem with starting with a recruiting that has some borderline or otherwise heretical-looking practices within the culture. I don't want all the interesting work to be done by the assumption of gross incompetence on the part of the High Lords.

Silver Skulls do seem like a potentially good choice, given the high emphasis they place on their Librarians foretellings in creating their battle plans (they're called Prognosticators if my memory is right?).

I'd agree with others that if you're looking for 150+ Marines, a strike force of a Battle Co. plus various support seems about right. It also seems likely that a Chief Librarian (or Epistolary) might be given command of such a force, especially if the Chapter venerates them.

Maybe if you did use the Silver Skulls, it'd be worth dropping the timeline of their betrayal further back into the 10,000 years of history, as being traitors they could still be around but you wouldn't have to explain why the betrayal of a sizeable chunk of the Chapter isn't a bigger deal in the present official fluff?

How far back? And if it's pretty far, wouldn't I then need to show how they manage to survive as renegades without some sort of disappearing into the Warp-story? I am hesitant to do this because I don't (and I see now that I left this part out earlier) want my rogue Psyker to be full on Chaotic. I like the Night Lords approach. They're not really afraid of it, but they see the Word Bearers and see quite enough. Yeah, so he's into divination. But I'd like to write him somewhere in between getting a little off the orthodox rails and before he becomes desperate enough to do just about anything to survive. Once he's pretty far gone (maybe after the part of the timeline I'm interested in representing him at) then, of course, he's evil for evil's sake. But before then, he's arrogant and confused and just ends up making a few strategic errors in doing damage control when his dangerous hobby gets outed. Or, he's got a message interesting enough for a significant schism. I tend to think my first strategy is more feasible for me, creatively, however.

P.S. LySiMachus, I've always loved both your DIY chapters.

I suppose my worry is that I could err on the one side of having a story that's very feasible but just not that fun, or I could err on the side of difficult but possible. Obviously I'd rather not end up in so-interesting-as-to-be-impossible territory, hence me coming here for help, which I have more than received.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Draakur]

I suppose my worry is that I could err on the one side of having a story that's very feasible but just not that fun, or I could err on the side of difficult but possible. Obviously I'd rather not end up in so-interesting-as-to-be-impossible territory, hence me coming here for help, which I have more than received.

This phenomenon, right here, is the bane of my existence. For someone who's never finished an IA and doesn't even have one active, I do an absurd amount of planning, writing and theorising on DIY (and barren official) Astartes Chapters. I feel I'm just not a strong enough writer yet to bridge the gap or find an effective way of surfing between these two factors. It's rough territory, I agree, and traversing it well to create something truly noteworthy and memorable is no easy task. I feel you here, brother.

 

Again, I'll help where I can.

[bloodhound23]

 

I suppose my worry is that I could err on the one side of having a story that's very feasible but just not that fun, or I could err on the side of difficult but possible. Obviously I'd rather not end up in so-interesting-as-to-be-impossible territory, hence me coming here for help, which I have more than received.

This phenomenon, right here, is the bane of my existence. For someone who's never finished an IA and doesn't even have one active, I do an absurd amount of planning, writing and theorising on DIY (and barren official) Astartes Chapters. I feel I'm just not a strong enough writer yet to bridge the gap or find an effective way of surfing between these two factors. It's rough territory, I agree, and traversing it well to create something truly noteworthy and memorable is no easy task. I feel you here, brother.

 

Again, I'll help where I can.

 

Yeah. It can get a bit paralyzing. It's a lot of work to give yourself a Chapter that's interesting and doesn't fly in the face of the relatively-rich universe we're working within. I suppose I've taken the first steps towards something substantial, but I am still a long way off from an Index Astartes/Index Traitoris. I appreciate your considerations. It's clear you've considered some of these routes before.