Reavers vs Assault Marines

[The Ironic Warrior]

So I'm looking at expanding my current Sons of Horus army with some of the delicious looking Mk4 Assault Marines on Forgeworld but I'm unsure whether to field them as Assault Marines or the snazzy Reavers...

 

What's the big draw to Reavers vs Assault Marines, and what are their best uses I suppose?

 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think both units have their merits. Assault marines are cheaper, and are always going to be troop choices regardless of what rite of war you use. Reavers on the other hand are sightly better, considering they have an extra attack and the unit can take as many power weapons as you want. They can also take some special weapons like melta guns to bust open transports, which is fairly handy. 

 

My vote would be for reavers. Veterans are better as a shooting unit than reavers with the newest update, but reavers are still a solid assault unit. With more attacks and power weapons they will be more effective in an assault than assault marines, plus it's easy to make them troops in any RoW if you take Malgohurst. 

[Caillum]

Reavers can also take chainaxes for 1ppm, which means they can dish out a lot of S5 AP4 hurt for very little. Well worth taking them on any models without power weapons/fists.

 

If you are taking Maloghurst, Reavers are definitely worth using for assault (given they'll be Troops). As Lord Asvaldir said, Veterans are better for shooting. If you're not taking Mal, Assault Marines are a pretty good option now - they'll likely outnumber their opponent, so they'll have (effectively) 4 attacks each on the charge.

[Withershadow]

Does this question look at Assault Marines vs. Reavers with jump packs?

 

With the cost decrease of assault marines, I do not know if the additional attack, weapon options and precision strike of the Reavers really balances it out.

 

10 Assault Marines - Sgt with power fist and artificer armor, 2x power weapons = 220 points

10 Reavers  - Sgt with power fist and artificer armor, 2x power weapons, 7x chainaxes = 312 points

 

That's over 9 points per model for +1 attack, chainaxe, outflank and precision strikes. Seems steep. Squads of 15 have a bit better math (each additional reaver with chainaxe costs you 16 points vs. 13 points for an assault marine), but then you have a huge unwieldy unit that is very vulnerable to blasts.

 

Running them on foot doesn't seem any better (and not only because you will have a harder time outnumbering):

 

10 Reavers as above without jump packs - 262 points

10 Veteran Weaponmasters with same equipment except chainaxes - 205 points

 

WS5 and 57 points savings vs. outflank, chainaxes, and precision strikes.  A bit better math here, I might consider a unit like this (with fewer members and maybe more hidden powerfists) as a bodyguard unit for a forge lord or some other force multiplier HQ. 

[Caillum]

...but then you have a huge unwieldy unit that is very vulnerable to blasts.

Totally disagree with this statement. 15 is about spot on for a power-armoured melee unit. It's where they can be effective and survivable (with added Apothecary of course). 10 is not enough to make an impact after the inevitable casualties on the way in.

 

The price piece, however, is a good point. I think I'd still be more inclined to go for the jump pack Reavers. Having Outflank helps get them pretty close to the action, which is often the issue with standard Assault Marines. If Reavers had Scout (and therefore Outflank) they would be perfect. Pricey, but effective.

[depthcharge12]

I've found Reavers with jump packs or on foot to melt really fast, it'd probably be more worth it just to take assault squads anyway. You wouldn't get as many power weapon attacks, but I think that's not an issue as you'll be outnumbering your opponent 99% of the time and therefore getting the extra free power weapon attacks.

 

Ironically, with this said, I'm taking 15 tooled up Reavers in a Kharybdis :devil: and 14 assault marines as my two troops choice.

[Withershadow]

 

...but then you have a huge unwieldy unit that is very vulnerable to blasts.

Totally disagree with this statement. 15 is about spot on for a power-armoured melee unit. It's where they can be effective and survivable (with added Apothecary of course). 10 is not enough to make an impact after the inevitable casualties on the way in.

 

The price piece, however, is a good point. I think I'd still be more inclined to go for the jump pack Reavers. Having Outflank helps get them pretty close to the action, which is often the issue with standard Assault Marines. If Reavers had Scout (and therefore Outflank) they would be perfect. Pricey, but effective.

 

How dense are the tables you play on? A 15-man squad that doesn't like difficult terrain seems unwieldy, plus 15+combat shields+apothecary is >500 points, which makes this an extremely juicy target, whereas the 10-man "basic" squad should rank in target priority barely above a tactical squad in a rhino. Considering these squads usually will want to bully tacticals/breachers/support squads/rapier crew/etc. who don't have much in the way of power weapons, just that fist and pair of swords/axes should turn the battle to your favor.

 

I hesitate to invest so much in a unit without a vexilla option.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Sure, if you want a small "bully" unit as you say assault marines will do just fine, however if you're comparing these two units as  straight up assault oriented units, the lower relative cost you're paying for those reavers when the unit is fifteen strong matters a lot, especially given in 30k how much of a price reduction there is for taking bigger squads. Just because of the pts cost reduction I'd never take a ten man assault oriented reaver squad or assault marine squad, I'd much rather take a bigger squad and get a pts reduction. I think for bigger units like that to be effective, you just need to run two as your main troops choices so you have more target saturation. 

[The Ironic Warrior]

The more I look at Reavers, the more I like the idea of using them in Dreadclaws with no Jump Packs and loading them with Chainaxes and Power Weapons...

[Withershadow]

I don't like outflanking much as that is at least 3rd turn before an assault-oriented reaver squad can make contact with the enemy. I think the outflanking is more useful to a combi-weapon or volkite squad in a rhino (although that build is clearly outshined by marksmen veterans).

 

15 in a Kharybdis with an apothecary and maybe a Forge Lord would make a pretty nasty, if expensive unit.  That's a lot of attacks wounding on 2+. World Eaters do it more effectively for like a third of the cost, but still, pretty brutal. :D

[The Ironic Warrior]

I don't like outflanking much as that is at least 3rd turn before an assault-oriented reaver squad can make contact with the enemy. I think the outflanking is more useful to a combi-weapon or volkite squad in a rhino (although that build is clearly outshined by marksmen veterans).

15 in a Kharybdis with an apothecary and maybe a Forge Lord would make a pretty nasty, if expensive unit. That's a lot of attacks wounding on 2+. World Eaters do it more effectively for like a third of the cost, but still, pretty brutal.

Why the Forgelord specifically? I would have thought a Chaplain would have been a better force multiplier?

[Caillum]

Edit: double post.

[Caillum]

They don't need Fearless, as the Primarch has that covered. They also don't need Hatred, as they'll be outside their deployment zone, thereby getting it from "Berserker Assault". So a Forge Lord debuffing enemy Toughness is probably a much stronger option. :)

 

Never mind, thought I was reading another topic! :P

 

Either or really. Forge Lord is a highly underrated Consul though.