Astra Militarum post-Cadia Falls [SPOILERS] and Speculation

[Indefragable]

1. This is a continuation/side tangent from this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328972-cadia-falls/ 

 

2. Catch up on all the leaks so far, fluff and crunch. SPOILERS in the links below. 

 

Crunch:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328953-gathering-storm-fall-of-cadia/page-61

 

Fluff:  there are four parts posted by Goonbandito (Hero of the Imperium!), so keep scrolling until you've seen them all if you like

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328953-gathering-storm-fall-of-cadia/page-61

 

3.  Triple void-shield, claymore-mined, laser-trip wires SPOILER warning here. I repeat, MASSIVE  fluff spoiler here, including skipping to the end of the fluff.  

 

DO NOT READ.

 

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!!

 

 

According to p3 of the fluff leaks above, Creed, and every remaining member of the Cadian 8th goes down with the planet to buy time for the rest of the Imperium to evacuate. 2.5M of the 850M Cadians on the planet at the start of the 13th are left alive post-evacuation. 

 

Last words heard from the surface of Cadia as it literally blows up are Creed bellowing "Cadia Stands!" as he and the 8th go down fighting. 

 

 

 

 

4. Speculation

 

 

 

I'd say it's a lock that AM are getting either rebooted and/or a completely new model line. The title "Cadia Falls" + the Creed/8th thing is fairly obvious to me. 

 

Whether Militarum Tempestus will replace Astra Militarum as we know it, or they are just going to reboot the line based off of another pattern/planet (or perhaps FW 30k's Solar Auxilia as others have speculated) is what we will have to wait and see about.

 

"But like 80% of the IG regiments in the galaxy are based on Cadia and use their equipment!"

 

^ I think that's more of a convenient way of GW back-splaining why there aren't more model lines/artwork of other regiment types. I fully expect that to be retconned. 

 

 

 

[sebs_evo7]

Yep killing two off the special characters will do that.

 

Reckon pask was on cadia as well?

[Indefragable]

Yep killing two off the special characters will do that.

Reckon pask was on cadia as well?

Considering the new everything-but-the-kitchen-machine-spirit formation explicitly lets you take Pask, but not Creed ( ) I would hazard a guess that Pask is gone as well (how did he get there from Tau space so fast?)

Speaking of Pask, just this past Sunday I faced him and a whole Armored Fist of punishers with my BA and a friend's IG. How did it go? Actual footage from the match:

https://youtu.be/XCtuZ-fDL2E?t=2m16s

...surprisingly, we won by points due to lucky maelstrom cards.

[Marshal Rohr]

Assuming your opponent was cool with houseruling their inclusion: How does DKoK fare when used with the new detachments?

[sebs_evo7]

Yep killing two off the special characters will do that.

Reckon pask was on cadia as well?

Considering the new everything-but-the-kitchen-machine-spirit formation explicitly lets you take Pask, but not Creed ( ) I would hazard a guess that Pask is gone as well (how did he get there from Tau space so fast?)

Speaking of Pask, just this past Sunday I faced him and a whole Armored Fist of punishers with my BA and a friend's IG. How did it go? Actual footage from the match:

...surprisingly, we won by points due to lucky maelstrom cards.

Haha you got me so bad. I was like awesome keen to see how they play in merica

[WarriorFish]

They can't replace the Guard with Stormies, that would be madness - but spruced up and enhanced C:MT would be welcome. A retcon would be the only way to change the extensive use of Cadian style equipment, but if that want to do a new range or whatever that's not necessary. Could spruce up the Cadian line and add some other regiments. Something we've been after for a long, long time.

 

Who can say what is coming at this stage, once we see the next Campaign book perhaps we can get a better picture. As much as Cadia is a big thing - it could easily result in no real change (something GW arguably likes). It could easily mean not much, or suddenly Cadian armies become elite Veteran formations (with Hatred: Chaos)...

[Reyner]

Steel Legion, please be Steel Legion. Armageddon!

[Lord Marshal]

The planet broke before the Guard did.

 

To be honest, I'm not a fan of Creed dying in the slightest. He got a decent end but... well, that's about it really. He was one of my favourite models, I loved his background, I loved that he was Not-Churchill of the setting and the Cadian 8th were my first 40k army and I have fond memories of transferring all those regimental sheets over to the Shock Troops. I'm getting End Times flashbacks all over again, despite the reassurances this won't be nearly as drastic a shift MECHANICALLY I still worry for the Guard's fate and potentially being relegated to NPC status.

 

It doesn't help that Creed was pretty much our ONLY major character who had the potential to really be a big story shaker. Yarrick is a Commissar and too focused on the Orks, the rest are too low on the totem pole to be anything but protagonists of their own 'boots on the ground' stories.

 

I get the feeling they're just going to rebrand the line and remove all references to Cadia, using the models as they are now to push a much more 'vanilla' theme to them than as purely being Cadan Shock Troopers. So we'll see a lot more regiments from different, non-Cadian worlds being painted up in their own schemes even if they're not Cadians. See the Genestealer Cults for a semi-example of this. People who are pushing for DKoG/other iconic regiments I feel will be disappointed. It's either going to be Squat'ing, Not-Cadian Vanilla or an entirely new Dark Eldar-esq revamp of 'Vanilla Imperial Guard'.

[Brother Captain Ed]

The Cadian line isn't going anywhere.  The Cadian 8th may stop being the poster-child of the IG, but that's about it.  I honestly wouldn't even be surprised if we get a new character that rises from the ashes of the Retreat from Cadia.  

 

And, frankly, I don't see this as ushering in any new Guard regimental traditions in plastic.  I do think it's possible we'll get a new line of infantrymen like they did with MT, though.  Probably some modernized form of Solar Auxila.  

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I can't really see them squatting the Imperial Guard. They've been a playable army for pretty much the whole existence of 40K and they must sell a decent number of models given the number of kits made available. Arguably the Guard line has seen better days at least in terms of infantry models/regiments, but they've given us lots of vehicle kits. So of the three options listed by Arbitration this seems the least likely.

 

I could see a new "Dark Eldar-esque" revamp of Vanilla Guard. They've been doing a lot of harkening back to the old days/2nd edition, and that's what the Guard had back then, didn't they? Furthermore, I could see them going with a neo-gothic look for such a revamped guard similar to the Militarum Tempestus look. I frankly thing that would be darn cool and actually hope they won't do that because my bank account is already howling with pain and grief over the very thought of that!

 

"Not-Cadia Vanilla" would require the least amount of work/new models for GW. Would it reap the profits that a well-executed revamp could though?

 

I don't know which they will do. Going back to fears of squatting and end-times, Creed is a relatively recent addition to the Guard repertoire. He never existed during my original tenure of using Guard back in 3rd edition, and I only discovered him in 5th edition. So getting rid of him is not the same as killing-off a character who's been around much longer. Besides, our most recent codex did kill-off (or at least not give rules for) several venerable and much-used/loved special characters such as Al'Rahim and Chenkov (who I'm pretty sure were both in the 3rd (a) and (b )codices).

[Harrowmaster]

It's a pity about Creed, hopefully whenever we get a new codex they don't squat him, I use his rules to represent my own commander so it would be unfortunate to see him dropped entirely.

[Indefragable]

I hear what ya'll are saying about the Cadian model line, but I really think it's at least getting a re-vamp ala Dark Eldar. But even then I doubt it will be Cadian themed. 

 

Star Wars spoiler as comparison. Don't read if you have not seen Force Awakens

 

 

 

Think about how they killed off Han in Ep VII. It was literally a transition from "old" to "new."

 

Disney: "hey all you rabid fans of almost 40 years. We hear your concerns and know you don't want to get left out as we transition to these young upstarts. So tell you what...here's the coolest guy in the canon back in action. Good ol' Han doing his thing! Pretty cool, huh? NOW HE'S DEAD. Get over it! We gave you your fan service then killed him off so you'd get the hint: we're moving on." 

 

 

 

 

• As I and others have stated multiple times, first guess is something along the lines of Solar Auxliia or MT in theme/aesthetic. 
• Another guess would be a revamped Catachan line. No, really, hear me out: they were one of the "original" IG forces to hit the scene, right? 2nd Ed-ish? They are definitely distinctive. And with the new gorgeous models they've been pushing out, they may actually do death-by-biceps right on the table top. It would be toned down a bit to be more "guerillas/commandos in SPEEEESSS" with shenanigan-heavy rules not unlike GSC. 
• After that...I'm not sure. What's a sci fi trope/theme that 40k has not really tapped into yet? 

 

Btw, all this is predictions from me. I'm not sure how I feel, one way or another. 

[Lord Marshal]

The reason I am sceptical of a Dark Eldar-esq revamp is that it doesn't really require one. Even if Cadians are no longer the face of the Imperial Guard so much as 'generic' non-specific Imperial Guardsmen, the models have aged extremely well to say that they came out around twelve years ago (I recall the Shock Troop box released, by coincidence, roughly week I got into 40k). The new Command Squad, the Shock Troops, the Genestealer kits, the tank crews, they all use the same base and none of them are bad models. I would not be surprised if they received a 'power armour marine' update in the sense that they get their special weapon options in plastic and probably some new heads. They'll probably throw in some respirator faces by default instead of making us by the upgrades from Forge World too.

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind a Platoon Command Squad kit since they stopped selling the Cadian Officer metals which I am still VERY bitter over. 

 

If there is an army that does need a Dark Eldar-esq revamp it's the Chaos Space Marines and honestly I find it far more likely they would update them - at the very least the generic Chaos Space Marines/Havocs - before the relatively consistent and newer Shock Troops, particularly now they're putting the Black Legion at the forefront far more and Fall of Cadia seems to be putting so much focus on being Horus Heresy 2.0 and the Imperial Guard being relegated to side characters in what should really have been their book.

 

This is assuming that, as you mentioned and myself posted on another thread, they don't start pushing the Storm Troopers as the 'core' of the Imperial Guard's troop options with vehicles being auxiliary support or something.

[Goonbandito]

Spoiler alert for Creed, I forgot to mention something in my intial posts

 

 

Creed stands alone on the ruined surface of Cadia, and watches as the last Mechanicum ship lifts off into the sky.  Cadia was now little more than a graveyard.  He felt his strength ebbing away, as his wounds finally caught up with him.  The storm parts before him, but not a Demon stands before him.  A metal giant in a scaled cloak.  Creed's panicked shot goes wide as iridescent polygons flicker on the figures upraised palm, "Ursarkar E. Creed.  This need not be your end.  Eternity awaits."  The giant's laughter follows Creed into darkness....

 

 

Also, Astra Militarum are not being squatted.  The new formations specifically call out Codex: Astra Militarum as places to pull units from.  Whilst Cadia might have fallen, there's still untold billions of Guardsmen off all different types (including Cadians) serving the Imperium throughout the galaxy.  The Cadians may have lost their planet, but that will just make them fight ever harder for vengeance in the God-Emperor's name.

[Otto von Bludd]

I'm really unsure what to think about this but I'm leaning towards Arbitration's view that Guard may be going the way of Empire in AoS, that is they will become some sort of NPC/background faction.  It's either that or they are getting a total revamp, but I have mixed feelings about that possibility as well; on the one hand it would be amazing to get new Guard models, but on the other it would require a huge investment of time and money to redo my Guard infantry as I would inevitably want to do.  Not to mention that if the new models departed from the Cadian aesthetic it would make adding them to an existing Cadian Guard force feel very awkward, at least for me. 

 

Edit:

 

So Creed doesn't even get a dignified death he gets sucked into Trazyn's vault.  I think death would have been better!

 

[Captain Caine 24th]

These are all fair points. Though I'm inclined to suspect change will continue for the guard. I wasn't around in Rogue Trader, but I remember metal Mordians, Tallarns, cadians, and catachans. I remember plastic catachans, and plastic cadians were a dream. Cadians are getting old...

 

I think GW will continue to grow it's intellectual property by creating new and cool guard regiments. They can always go back for a retro-marketing campaign, to satisfy the old hobbyists. But better sales is probably more often through new stuff to spur rumors, leaks, and internet conversation. GW also seems to do things in an unsuspected way. I mean I'm sure they know what they are doing, the internet is an incredible market data treasure trove, but why were there like 4 generations of stormtroopers? And what's even more weird is I really like 3 of those generations. Usually you'd expect them to only replace ugly, out-dated models...

 

In a different way GW is really doing great work with new designs but 3rd party model companies have made crazy progress these past few years. Anvil Industries, Pig Iron Productions, and Victoria Miniatures are really detailed compared to Cadians. Being honest I think Anvil has got GW beat. There are also wholly untapped markets--interchangeable parts like swapping out heads. GW got away from the bits ordering catalog a while ago. Though I suppose the genestealer cult provides a head swap to a whole cadian squad.

 

And on that note, since genestealer cults are paired with IG/AM kits now, i think a new guard codex would only interfere with genestealer cult sales. There's got to be a market saturation point on how much the average GW gamer spends per month, as well as total army spending (I know the current release schedule is testing me to the max). So, I'm saying if new guard models come, they would only come after the genestealer cults' sales level off. Even then, beyond the old codex release cycle, GW has figured out new marketing techniques to spike sales, such as the now very frequent campaign books. GW is getting a lot of mileage out of the old model line through well designed power creeps in rules. 

 

My bet is cadians remain a staple through the 13th crusade. For the next 2 years I'd say a new regiment(s) are more likely to come in piece-meal through some crazy new & unexpected faction codex like an actual rogue trader army or mini-box game. Something like a deathwatch game, would be a good test ground to see if a new regiment would be received well or not. And just like Deathwatch you know this new regiment will be awesome, like Krieg on steroids. And on that fateful day, in the face of total obsolescence, I will of course post photos of my entire sprawling Cadian army under the title "Cadia Stands."

[Marshal Rohr]

The past few days I have been wondering if game workshop might actually be moving to the anvil model but in plastic.

[Indefragable]

CaptainCaine: good point about GSC, but I see it the other way: it helps clear old stock off shelves. How do you get things to sell particularly fast? Have TWO factions need that stuff!

 

And then when/if new guard stuff comes out.....update the GSC stuff as well and voila! Doubled the sales!

 

This is not to be cynical, but rather I think it could go either way.

 

And just to be clear, I'm not sure how I would feel about a complete overhaul of the Guard line and am not advocating for it, I just can't shake the gut feeling that is the direction things are going based on the signs so far.

[Plasmablasts]

One way they could go with the Guard model range would be to create two generic kits:

 

Veterans/Command Squad/SWS kit:

 

Lots of special weapons, shotguns, demo charges, parts for medic, melee/pistol options

 

Heavy weapons kit:

 

Like the current HWS but just hands

 

These could then be combined with an Infantry squad kit:

 

Torsos

Legs (both standing/running and kneeling/crouching)

A variety of heads (e.g. Helmet on, helmet off, facial hair, female)

Lasgun arms

Heavy weapon arms, some of which (if hands are separate) could double for sergeant arms etc

Alternative head and torso for junior officer

Sergeant weapons

A few special and melee weapons (especially signature ones for that regiment)

 

GW could then create new regiments in plastic by creating one new Infantry squad box (compatible with the two generic boxes) and a clam-pack of a senior officer and standard bearer. Would need some precision modelling to ensure parts across these kits always married up but they seem to be capable of that now.

 

A "Tanith" Infantry Squad box could be made for forward sentry veterans.

[Stercus]

Why not do a series of upgrade spruces like the ones we've seen recently for the various types of Astartes and the gsc? New heads, regimental logos, a couple of jazzed-up weapons, a torso or two: voila, a variant regiment. The basic Cadian models just a guy in fatigues and carapace armour carrying a lasgun. All those things are supposed to be mass produced on a galactic scale, so it makes sense that the majority of regiments would use them in one form or anaother.

[Plasmablasts]

Why not do a series of upgrade spruces like the ones we've seen recently for the various types of Astartes and the gsc? New heads, regimental logos, a couple of jazzed-up weapons, a torso or two: voila, a variant regiment. The basic Cadian models just a guy in fatigues and carapace armour carrying a lasgun. All those things are supposed to be mass produced on a galactic scale, so it makes sense that the majority of regiments would use them in one form or anaother.

I wondered about that approach, but it wouldn't really help recreate many of the iconic regiments - the basic silhouettes of Cadians, Catachans, Valhallans, Tallarn and Mordians are all quite different.

Why not do a series of upgrade spruces like the ones we've seen recently for the various types of Astartes and the gsc? New heads, regimental logos, a couple of jazzed-up weapons, a torso or two: voila, a variant regiment. The basic Cadian models just a guy in fatigues and carapace armour carrying a lasgun. All those things are supposed to be mass produced on a galactic scale, so it makes sense that the majority of regiments would use them in one form or anaother.

I wondered about that approach, but it wouldn't really help recreate many of the iconic regiments - the basic silhouettes of Cadians, Catachans, Valhallans, Tallarn and Mordians are all quite different.

 

Edit: Don't know how I ended up with this duplicated post!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm firmly in the Camp of demanding boosted Stormies. What I'd really like to see is that Cadians become a more elite army.

 

I don't have this book, and I probably won't be able to get it anytime soon. I will say this, GW will alienate a lot of players if they do away with Guard altogether. In Fantasy the Factions of Brettonia and the Empire were combined into the Free Peoples, and so the models are still playable. I think that GW might be trying to revamp the guard for balance, or to switch up the primary model range. 

 

I'm really hoping for something good is in store for the Guard. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm firmly in the Camp of demanding boosted Stormies. What I'd really like to see is that Cadians become a more elite army.

 

I don't have this book, and I probably won't be able to get it anytime soon. I will say this, GW will alienate a lot of players if they do away with Guard altogether. In Fantasy the Factions of Brettonia and the Empire were combined into the Free Peoples, and so the models are still playable. I think that GW might be trying to revamp the guard for balance, or to switch up the primary model range. 

 

I'm really hoping for something good is in store for the Guard.

I don't know if it's good or not, but I think we might be one of the first books in 8th Edition (assuming the traditional staggered release system).  

[Wargamer]

Honestly, I think Cadians are a terrible choice for a poster regiment. Not that I don't love Cadians (to the point where I will point blank refuse to accept any lore that claims Cadia has fallen. It hasn't; that's Chaos propaganda and you should be shot for believing it) but they just don't fit with the bat:cuss crazy brand of 40K I grew up with.

 

But you know who does? Vostroyans. Guys in huge leather greatcoats with mad hats and steampunk weaponry. Seriously, these guys are using laser rifles made of wood! Does anything represent the anarchic blend of technology and barbarism within the Imperium than a laser rifle made of wood? They are the most 40K Imperial Guard regiment ever imagined! This is old-school Admech levels of brilliant! 

 

If I were in charge of GW, I'd start pumping out plastic Vostroyan kits and throw in some alternate helmets so you can have something more Steel Legion / Krieg if that's how your tastes lie.

 

Cadians were just generic sci-fi. Catachans were Space Yanks in Space Vietnam. But Vostroyans? They're 40K's special brand of crazy.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Honestly, I think Cadians are a terrible choice for a poster regiment. Not that I don't love Cadians (to the point where I will point blank refuse to accept any lore that claims Cadia has fallen. It hasn't; that's Chaos propaganda and you should be shot for believing it) but they just don't fit with the bat:cuss crazy brand of 40K I grew up with.

 

But you know who does? Vostroyans. Guys in huge leather greatcoats with mad hats and steampunk weaponry. Seriously, these guys are using laser rifles made of wood! Does anything represent the anarchic blend of technology and barbarism within the Imperium than a laser rifle made of wood? They are the most 40K Imperial Guard regiment ever imagined! This is old-school Admech levels of brilliant! 

 

If I were in charge of GW, I'd start pumping out plastic Vostroyan kits and throw in some alternate helmets so you can have something more Steel Legion / Krieg if that's how your tastes lie.

 

Cadians were just generic sci-fi. Catachans were Space Yanks in Space Vietnam. But Vostroyans? They're 40K's special brand of crazy.

I guess I'm not sure why you see it that way.  The whole Guard fits that template.

 

Catachans: Space Vietnam

Elysians: Space 101st Airborne

Death Korps: Space WWI Germans

Steel Legion: Space German Panzer Korps

Mordians: Space Prussians

Praetorians: Space Victorian Limeys

Tallarn: Space Arabs

Vallhallans: Space Soviets

And, yes, Vostroyans: Space Tsarists

 

I never thought of them as anything special as far as the Regiments of the God-Emperor thing goes....