First Legion size

[Azorius]

It has been said that the First Legion has the largest size before the Third Rangdan Xenocide made it took losses that led to Ultramarine to be the biggest legion. 

 

With growing numbers of recruits from Caliban, trained by Luther in a more effective scale, can it be said that the First Legion is among the ranks of the biggest legions in the Legiones Astartes?

 

While Lion and Luther have their own forces on their own command, it seem that its own officers are more scattered and widespread when you compare it with other Legions. Moreover, it has extensive void outposts and fortresses throughout the Imperium, and these could readily be served as potential recruitment grounds as well as garrisons. 

 

Another interesting thing to note is that the some Dark Angels seems to have the tendency to go "rogue". Especially the Nemean Reaver from Book VI Retribution, Cypher and Astelan. Maybe these examples are not that strong enough. Is this attributed to its geneseed?

 

Does the First Legion and its modern Unforgiven have the same number?

[Hrolf the Cunning]

I can't fault your reasoning brother. I like to think that the first legion's penchant for secrecy means that even they dont really know how many legionaries they have leading up to the heresy as things start to fracture. I think the closest thing we are likely to get will be when forgworld releases the DA book in approximately a decades time.

[Caboosegg]

Reading one of the short stories. Astelan says that in one year since finding Caliban the legion had grown by 20000 marines.

[rendingon1+]

 

Another interesting thing to note is that the some Dark Angels seems to have the tendency to go "rogue". Especially the Nemean Reaver from Book VI Retribution, Cypher and Astelan. Maybe these examples are not that strong enough. Is this attributed to its geneseed?

 

Azorius have you read HH Dark Angels books? Also Nemean Reaver story is a bit more complex than just 'going rogue'. Geneseed has nothing to do with this.

[Marshal Rohr]

The genetic determinism of the geneseed could very well have something to do with it. The Lions requirement for absolute fealty may be another factor. Clearly Forge World and Black Library have set the stage for a philosophical divide between the Terran and Calibanites, playing on the difficulty of assimilating the first into the second. We won't know anything concrete until their background is released but it's safe to say the organization as a whole suffers from the lack of unity native to feudal systems.

[rendingon1+]

About the geneseed - I meant that geneseed does not determine loyalty as such. Let's take a look at successor chapters in <40k. Many successor chapters have turned regardless of the geneseed origins not to mention individuals . Even at the time of Horus Heresy there were (as we know) elements of differing loyalty amongst all of the loyal legions (to lesser degree in Legions like Fists or BA but nevertheless). Not to mention loyalist factions on the traitor side etc. DA internal strife according to first 2 BL books was caused by:

a) Luther actions during Saroshi compliance

unrest on Caliban and knightly orders

As a side note I hope FW will give us more plausible story than "Terrans abusing Caliban". I wonder why EVERY other primarch/legion homeworld was left as it were but Caliban was turned into massive weapons/astartes factory with Terrans playing overlords and Calibanites being no better than slaves/workers. It makes no sense.

[Marshal Rohr]

Every legion homeworld was turned into a war world within the first few years of contact with the Imperium with the sole exception of Macragge, which was able to shuffle the burden to different systems in their empire. The Inwit Cluster, Deliverence, Medusa, etc all became like that. Caliban wasn't any different.

[rendingon1+]

I have to disagree. Aside from "Legions infrastructure" (HQ etc):

 

Inwit: don't know much about Inwit

Fenris: left as it was with viking tribes etc

Colchis: according to info in First Heretic it was totally non militarty world

Tizca: left as it was

Medusa: as I remember it it was left s it was with nomadic tribes etc

Deliverence: was industrialised world before

etc

 

EDIT: Oh and yes of course I believe almost every world had their own auxilia (if that's your point) regiments etc but what I mean is:

 

I can't recall any fragments about any of this worlds turned into massive ordnance/weapons factories where native population served mostly as a workers, lived in lowest levels of arcologist etc. Most important of all these world retained their "culture' while coming of Imperium totally changed Caliban's social structure (no more nobility, peasants or knightly orders - just "citizens"). Which is unprecedented.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Inwit Cluster and Fenris kind of parralel each other. Inwit/Fenris were both left more or less unchanged, but parts of planet/system were industrialized for Legion specific needs. In the case of Inwit, it was the masses of orbital shipyards and Fenris had the Fang, which became the second strongest fortress that wasn't the Emperor's palace, with the legion forges and such in basement. Also consider the Lion was the 14th found IIRC, where Russ and Dorn were found within the first thirty-forty years of the great Crusade, the Lion was found closer to a century after it began. There could've been doctrine shifts in that time to explain the difference in the way Caliban was treated compared to the the earlier found Primarchs. The model under the 'first gen' Primarchs might've been massively different and was streamlined and more bureaucratic for the 'mid gen' Primarchs. Coral being one of the last found and on a pseudo forge world was bad example on my part, so maybe Mortarion is a better example, because Barbarus was industrialized similar to Caliban, though it lacked the Military Heritage of the Calibanites.

 

My thoughts on this are that Caliban is a unique example because A, the prexistence of the Fallen before the Heresy was fleshed out dictated narrative choices to make a civil war more plausible and B, from my personal perspective on the new and old lore Caliban always seemed distrustful of outsiders, hence the resistance to the Lion's rule pre-Imperium and the fact he had to take up with the Order which accepted recruits based on merit and not birth. So mix those two things together and can see why the Imperium would've had to alter the culture (it was also a death world so changes might've been made to increase survivability) and the narrative requirements needed the tension between Imperium and Caliban.

[Sandlemad]

Besides a change in doctrine, the primarch's own involvement probably play a part in a world's relationship with the imperium post-contact. Lorgar was able to stave off imperial interference on Colchis and Corax kept the forges of Deliverance clean of Martian control, both later primarchs. Nothing concrete but I get the same impression of Chogoris being relatively untouched and unintegrated. It might be that the Lion simply didn't care all that much.

I would second the Calibanite distrust of outsiders. Even what we see of the Order was insular. In the context of the legion itself, more than any other legion it appears to have had a long pre-primarch legacy, one with a strong sense of their own distinctiveness and primacy. A bumpy integration between the Calibanite and old Terran elements seems to have been inevitable, even without the Lion's and Luther's actions. Even then it's not two sides but a morass of different factions. Not a clean integration and not a clean split.

EDIT: Maybe the 1st legion had a genetic predisposition to mild paranoia? It's about as nebulous as the WB loyalty, the UM having a drive towards competition or the EC having a faint form of OCD. Doesn't 'determine' anything but just makes them tend towards certain habits.

[Marshal Rohr]

Another possibility is the Lion signed off on the changes because he resented being giving command of a legion that had just been through the grinder of the Rangdan Wars. Maybe he thought the benefits of breaking down everything and building a world solely focused on churning out men and materiel to reclaim the First'a place as the Primus Inter Pares was a tradeoff worth the erosion of Calibans culture.

[rendingon1+]

Another possibility is the Lion signed off on the changes because he resented being giving command of a legion that had just been through the grinder of the Rangdan Wars. Maybe he thought the benefits of breaking down everything and building a world solely focused on churning out men and materiel to reclaim the First'a place as the Primus Inter Pares was a tradeoff worth the erosion of Calibans culture.

Very good point.

Lion was also extremely ambitious (Wright's Great Wolf shows it perfectly) and really wanted 'to be the best' so it's perfectly logical he coud have sacrificed Caliban (more or less) to get a head start, especially since he was found relatively late.

 

There's also this First Legion inepependence thing. Mayby the First (and the Lion) wanted as little outside interference as possible? By industrialising Caliban they tried to secure their own sources of... everything to be less dependant on Mechanicum.

[Azorius]

 

Another possibility is the Lion signed off on the changes because he resented being giving command of a legion that had just been through the grinder of the Rangdan Wars. Maybe he thought the benefits of breaking down everything and building a world solely focused on churning out men and materiel to reclaim the First'a place as the Primus Inter Pares was a tradeoff worth the erosion of Calibans culture.

Very good point.

Lion was also extremely ambitious (Wright's Great Wolf shows it perfectly) and really wanted 'to be the best' so it's perfectly logical he coud have sacrificed Caliban (more or less) to get a head start, especially since he was found relatively late.

 

There's also this First Legion inepependence thing. Mayby the First (and the Lion) wanted as little outside interference as possible? By industrialising Caliban they tried to secure their own sources of... everything to be less dependant on Mechanicum.

 

 

Firstly, I know the Nemean Reaver hasn't gone rouge. He is still a devoted loyalist, sort of. 

 

And IIRC, according to the Angels of Caliban, the First Legion already has an independent *Terran* supply network, so they are mostly self-sufficient and not so dependent on the Mechanicum as the other Legions. 

 

Finally, this post is not actually mine. I simply re-posted(and slightly revised) some other member's speculation with explicit permission. 

[Jareddm]

 

There's also this First Legion inepependence thing. Mayby the First (and the Lion) wanted as little outside interference as possible? By industrialising Caliban they tried to secure their own sources of... everything to be less dependant on Mechanicum.

 

This is the piece that I find most interesting.  I imagine the First Legion to be one of the top legions in terms of 'baggage' they bring with them when they are integrated with their Primarch, alongside the Thousand Sons, Salamanders, and Raven Guard.  Legions that had already defined themselves or otherwise required serious overhauls of their organizations and MO in order to bring them into line with their Primarch's vision.  Compared to, say, the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Hands, or Luna Wolves, which had relatively little baggage.  The First Legion would come with all of the darkest secrets of the War of Unification, with exceptionalism towards proscribed technologies and plenty of prior actions taken that they are sworn to never speak of again, running straight into the complex series of knightly Orders established on Caliban.  Two systems designed to be as suspicious of outsiders as possible.

[Lord_Ikka]

Given that the Dark Angels were for a while the only Legion, the inherent mild paranoia seems normal. After all, they fought in the Unification Wars against powers that were Warp-based and must have taken part in the destruction of the Thunder Warriors, both of which are something that the Imperial Truth wouldn't want known. So the 1st Legion got used to keeping secrets. Add them to the Order, which is based on layers of secrets and truths (the spiral), and you have two cultures that would have a difficult time bonding. Despite that, its fairly impressive that the Lion only sent back a few thousand Terrans to Caliban, showing that at least he trusted most that were still with him.

 

As far as the numbers go, Caliban pumped out quite a bit of both Army regiments and Marines. I believe that within fifty years of the Lion's discovery, the losses in the Genocides were becoming less pronounced and the legion was on par with most middle-numbers legions. During the actual Heresy/aftermath, we've got no idea yet- book 8 should clear up some of it, but I think that the 1st were still one of the largest legions at the time. In 40k times, the DA and their known successors (both canon and rumored) make up around twenty to twenty five Chapters worth of marines. That is maybe one-tenth to one-eight the numbers that were in the First during the height of their power. Only the Ultramarines and their successors have anywhere near the numbers that their legion had in the Heresy (providing anywhere from 30-60% of the total amount of marines in the Imperium), but where the Unforgiven excel is their coordination. They are basically still following Legion organization, with the DA serving as the head of the Unforgiven and all the successors following.

[depthcharge12]

Current size at the start of the heresy based on the Rangdan numbers has us at 140-150k legionaries, though we might be number one again after Calth :P ;)

 

I think it'd be safe to assume the Dark Angels during the heresy are depleted to sub 100k and even less of that with the Lion or crusading around.

[Azorius]

Remember, the Rangdan Xenocides are finished more than a century before the Heresy, somewhere between circa. 890.M30k and 899.M30k. And after its reunification of the Primarch, the First Legion redoubles its rearming/recruiting/refitting effort, and the industrialized Caliban churns out many thousands of initiates per year. Thus brother, it seems probable that the First Legion already replenishes, or even exceeds, its pinnacle strength long before outbreak of the Heresy. And it is corresponded with the description of the novella Wolf King - "The (Heresy era) First Legion is more powerful than any juncture"

[Leif Bearclaw]

Frankly, I'd expect the 1st to be somewhere in the 100-150k region pre-Heresy, probably closer to the middle than the extremes. For no other reason than the 'larger size bracket' of Legions is already pretty full, with the Ultras, SoH, WEs, IWs all at 150k+. If you include the WBs and AL with their 'hidden' forces (not sure if they're supposed to count in the FW book comparisons) then you already have a third of the Legions in what has previously been called the upper quarter (iirc) of Legion manpower. So leave the 1st out of it.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm fairly certain the Dark Angels are also going to be in the upper quarter. All the signs point to it.

[Fytzer]

To drag it back a little, my impression as to why Caliban was industrialised was because a) The Lion was ambitious and wanted Caliban to have an important role in the future: it's this type of sentiment he expressed to Zahariel in "Descent of Angels", and b) it is subject to a little bit of real-world practicalities. Caliban was the first legion homeworld to have its compliance written about in the HH series. You can't blame the writer for not really knowing what the "standard procedure" is when he's the first one writing about it.

In terms of legion strength, I think this is a deliberate ambiguity, that is constantly introduced to encourage imaginative army themes. By breaking up every legion into multiple smaller groups FW avoids proscribing players' choices. It doesn't really matter whether the 1st Legion are in the top 50% or 25% because their exact numbers are never going to be defined. Personally I prefer the idea that they had literally thousands of marines dotted around the galaxy who no one knew about, but that's just my thoughts

[Azorius]

Frankly, I'd expect the 1st to be somewhere in the 100-150k region pre-Heresy, probably closer to the middle than the extremes. For no other reason than the 'larger size bracket' of Legions is already pretty full, with the Ultras, SoH, WEs, IWs all at 150k+. If you include the WBs and AL with their 'hidden' forces (not sure if they're supposed to count in the FW book comparisons) then you already have a third of the Legions in what has previously been called the upper quarter (iirc) of Legion manpower. So leave the 1st out of it.

 

And most of "upper-quarter/large-size Legions" are Traitors. FW has to bring numerical balance between the Loyalists and the Traitors. The Dark and Blood Angels(and possibly the White Scars) would be perfect adjustment. And so far, each and every source is consistently ascertaining the First is one of the largest and most powerful Legion, and its honour and conquest roll is almost peerless, even after the Xenocides. 

[Azorius]

To drag it back a little, my impression as to why Caliban was industrialised was because a) The Lion was ambitious and wanted Caliban to have an important role in the future: it's this type of sentiment he expressed to Zahariel in "Descent of Angels", and it is subject to a little bit of real-world practicalities. Caliban was the first legion homeworld to have its compliance written about in the HH series. You can't blame the writer for not really knowing what the "standard procedure" is when he's the first one writing about it.

In terms of legion strength, I think this is a deliberate ambiguity, that is constantly introduced to encourage imaginative army themes. By breaking up every legion into multiple smaller groups FW avoids proscribing players' choices. It doesn't really matter whether the 1st Legion are in the top 50% or 25% because their exact numbers are never going to be defined. Personally I prefer the idea that they had literally thousands of marines dotted around the galaxy who no one knew about, but that's just my thoughts

Yeah, that is the reason why I'm looking forward to next 'Angels of Death' Black Book. That Book will surely verify exact(or at least approximate) size of the both Angels... Besides, I dearly wish to build my Heresy Angel armies, guided by exact perimeters.

[Marshal Rohr]

Also, quarter doesn't always mean a 1/4th division of something. The Upper quarter may be the bracket for Legions over 150, with Legions rising into and falling out on a cyclical basis. Saudi Arabia's empty quarter isn't 1/4th of Saudi Arabia, urban centers with immigrant quarters aren't segregated into 4 sections, military housing is called quarters and can anything from a room, to a duplex, to a decent sized home. Reading quarter is uneccsarily reductive if you attach to it five specific Legions.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

And most of "upper-quarter/large-size Legions" are Traitors. FW has to bring numerical balance between the Loyalists and the Traitors. The Dark and Blood Angels(and possibly the White Scars) would be perfect adjustment. And so far, each and every source is consistently ascertain the First is one of the largest and most powerful Legion, and their honour and conquest roll is almost peerless, even after the Xenocides. 

 

Why? Ignoring for a moment the arguable Traitor bias FW has, why do both sides need 'numerical balance'? Both sides take horrific casualties early in the Heresy anyway, so why insist on an arbitrary numerical balance in pre-war numbers, when none of those numbers would still be relevant by Heresy year 2?

 

 

Also, quarter doesn't always mean a 1/4th division of something. The Upper quarter may be the bracket for Legions over 150, with Legions rising into and falling out on a cyclical basis. Saudi Arabia's empty quarter isn't 1/4th of Saudi Arabia, urban centers with immigrant quarters aren't segregated into 4 sections, military housing is called quarters and can anything from a room, to a duplex, to a decent sized home. Reading quarter is uneccsarily reductive if you attach to it five specific Legions.

And I'd say the rest of the language used in the FW books is clearly numeric, and so it's entirely appropriate to apply the specific mathematical meaning of quarter, rather than derived geographic uses of the word. If you're right, and that's what FW meant, they did a very poor job of putting that across. They were talking numbers, so taking 'quarter' to meant an actual quarter, ie 1/4 is the only reasonable supposition.

[Marshal Rohr]

FW has to provide numeric balance because 'fully half' of the Legionaries joined Horus and half stayed loyal. No where in the lore has it ever said 2/3rds of the Legions joined Horus. This is a discussion about the size of the first legion at the beginning of the Age of Darkness, so post-Isstvan losses are irrelevant. If you have nothing to contribute beyond your opinion the dark angels shouldn't be a large legion please don't detail yet another cool lore topic.

 

And no the numeric definition of quarter is not the only one applicable. Forge World is intentionally ambiguous in terms of macro level strength to leave room for players to build and tell their own narratives.