Heresy Weekender News and Discussion

[bluntblade]

And I should have read more before posting.

 

Khayon ended up on the Planet of the Sorcerers same as the other survivors of the battle proper, I believe.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wow, the Ultramarines murdered them in their own encampments.

 

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/4166A938-FE28-4602-9E72-7F383C0BF5C4_zpsop6wdvhu.png

[1ncarnadine]

Wow, the Ultramarines murdered them in their own encampments.

 

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/4166A938-FE28-4602-9E72-7F383C0BF5C4_zpsop6wdvhu.png

 

I like the little bit of irony here considering Calth :D

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Does this happen before or after Calth?

 

The sliding time scale has completely defeated me, so now I'll just ask

[1ncarnadine]

Before! This ends a handful of months before Isstvan III kicks off.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Before! This ends a handful of months before Isstvan III kicks off.

After would have made perfect sense to me, with the UM being aware of the dangers of the Warp.

 

Before makes it more hardcore.

[1ncarnadine]

 

After would have made perfect sense to me, with the UM being aware of the dangers of the Warp.

 

Before makes it more hardcore.

 

 

One interesting thing in this book is that it actually does include all the votes from Nikaea, so we now finally know what each and every Primarch thought about the psyker issue. Guilliman was actually in favor of the Librarius... Wait. Let me just take a photo of that box, it's too interesting. I'll edit it back into this in a minute

 

http://i.imgur.com/kp3qg52.jpg?1

[Indefragable]

I had literally just snapped pics of the various pages showing the force disposition for Prospero, and these types of posts are starting to come up.

 

Well - take a look for yourself:

 

EDIT: pictures removed from quote for the sake of everyone's eyeballs

 

All those "normal" 'umie regiments from the Sol systems sound fascinating. I hope one of the 15-20 books FW works on is one just all about the ragtag compilation of Imperial Guard/Militia/Cult/Solar Auxilia forces. Even just breaking it down into "regiment X, mostly from Albia" and "the void-hardened wardens from the outer defenses of Neptune and Pluto" (paraphrasing) absolutely drips with so much character it's amazing. 

[b1soul]

(and yes, if those numbers seem like light casualties compared to wiping out 60,000 Thousand Sons you are correct. The Wolves make out like bandits in this and prosecute most all of Prospero themselves)

 

Only 982 Custodes present and ~3000 Sisters too, if anyone was wondering.

If there's no retcon of Magnus' lowering/blinding of the TSons' defenses (resulting in the TSons' being caught with their pants completely down)...I'd say losing 25K SW (roughly a third of the SW attacking force) against such ill-prepared defenders is not "light" casualties.

[Sandlemad]

I had literally just snapped pics of the various pages showing the force disposition for Prospero, and these types of posts are starting to come up.

Well - take a look for yourself:

EDIT: pictures removed from quote for the sake of everyone's eyeballs

All those "normal" 'umie regiments from the Sol systems sound fascinating. I hope one of the 15-20 books FW works on is one just all about the ragtag compilation of Imperial Guard/Militia/Cult/Solar Auxilia forces. Even just breaking it down into "regiment X, mostly from Albia" and "the void-hardened wardens from the outer defenses of Neptune and Pluto" (paraphrasing) absolutely drips with so much character it's amazing.

Yeah, these are cool. I note that BL and FW's love for Old Albian representation continues apace. Common theme there of hatred for sorcery and warp stuff...

LetsYouDown, m_r_parker, did all those army forces in the Beta-Garmon contingent come from Horus (besides the Cthonians, obviously) or were they associated with the VI legion?

[Jareddm]

 

 

snip

I love how it not only has their vote, but the attitude of their vote :D

As if the written description was a transcription of a video recording.

[Indefragable]

 

 

After would have made perfect sense to me, with the UM being aware of the dangers of the Warp.

 

Before makes it more hardcore.

 

 

One interesting thing in this book is that it actually does include all the votes from Nikaea, so we now finally know what each and every Primarch thought about the psyker issue. Guilliman was actually in favor of the Librarius... Wait. Let me just take a photo of that box, it's too interesting. I'll edit it back into this in a minute

 

EDIT: picture removed from quote 

 

 

That is so cool and something I did not even realize I wanted to know. Even though it's not really suprising in any way, it's really interesting to see lay out and the kind of little detail that makes FW worthwhile. 

 

 

(and yes, if those numbers seem like light casualties compared to wiping out 60,000 Thousand Sons you are correct. The Wolves make out like bandits in this and prosecute most all of Prospero themselves)

 

Only 982 Custodes present and ~3000 Sisters too, if anyone was wondering.

If there's no retcon of Magnus' lowering/blinding of the TSons' defenses (resulting in the TSons' being caught with their pants completely down)...I'd say losing 25K SW (roughly a third of the SW attacking force) against such ill-prepared defenders is not "light" casualties.

 

 

I always try to wrap my head around how the battle would play out on the TT (in 40k rules, since I have not yet played 30k). Yes, fluff and TT crunch vary widely. But if you picture an entire army of psykers throwing out Psychic Shrieks everywhere....it's easy to see how the TS were so feared by their brethren. Anyone not within nullifying range of a SoS would get mind flayed before even getting to shoot or charge.....

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@LetsYouDown: that's an awesome image.

 

I like the different views, and find some of them especially interesting (Corax and Guilliman)

[1ncarnadine]

(and yes, if those numbers seem like light casualties compared to wiping out 60,000 Thousand Sons you are correct. The Wolves make out like bandits in this and prosecute most all of Prospero themselves)

Only 982 Custodes present and ~3000 Sisters too, if anyone was wondering.

If there's no retcon of Magnus' lowering/blinding of the TSons' defenses (resulting in the TSons' being caught with their pants completely down)...I'd say losing 25K SW (roughly a third of the SW attacking force) against such ill-prepared defenders is not "light" casualties.

Well. Hmmmm. It is quite light. It's an amazing achievement, considering. Leman Russ's genius as a tactician is evident in this book. He carefully commits in stages and keeps large amounts of his Legion in reserves and it has interesting consequences, while at the same time he still refuses the help of Valdor, the Sons of Horus, and House Malinax for a giant chunk of the battle. It's very incredible what Russ accomplishes on his own... for a while. Obviously the Sons do some things. Like completely borking time and space. But remember that it's a Legion home world, that is almost entirely immune to orbital bombardment due to a 'kine' shield (GIANT hurdle), and the Sons have a LOT of surprises, and he and his Legion still come through with only ~40% casualties.

Valdor only comes down when the psychic shenanigans get so intense he loses contact with the surface and makes the call to join on his own. Malinax deploys after the Pyramid of Photep vanishes, and the Sons of Horus come down but kind of busy themselves... murdering civilians. Good for them.

Yeah, these are cool. I note that BL and FW's love for Old Albian representation continues apace. Common theme there of hatred for sorcery and warp stuff...

LetsYouDown, m_r_parker, did all those army forces in the Beta-Garmon contingent come from Horus (besides the Cthonians, obviously) or were they associated with the VI legion?

The Imperial army stuff is indeed brought in by the Warmaster's order. Legio Mortis and Malinax as well.

[Indefragable]

Yeah, these are cool. I note that BL and FW's love for Old Albian representation continues apace. Common theme there of hatred for sorcery and warp stuff..

Quick Q: any idea what part of Earth "Old Alba" is supposed to be? Couldn't quite tell based on descriptions I read online. One map (that looks really off) seemed to make it out to be Canada?

[1ncarnadine]

 

Quick Q: any idea what part of Earth "Old Alba" is supposed to be? Couldn't quite tell based on descriptions I read online. One map (that looks really off) seemed to make it out to be Canada?

 

It's hard to say because there are no oceans anymore, but a... piece of land? a city? a hive? all of the above? near where the British Isles were, at one point. It could be the former British Isles, it could be land that was formerly ocean... anywhere around there in the Atlantic? It's hard to say. And again it could be all of the above. 

[Athrawes]

(and yes, if those numbers seem like light casualties compared to wiping out 60,000 Thousand Sons you are correct. The Wolves make out like bandits in this and prosecute most all of Prospero themselves)

Only 982 Custodes present and ~3000 Sisters too, if anyone was wondering.

If there's no retcon of Magnus' lowering/blinding of the TSons' defenses (resulting in the TSons' being caught with their pants completely down)...I'd say losing 25K SW (roughly a third of the SW attacking force) against such ill-prepared defenders is not "light" casualties.

Well. Hmmmm. It is quite light. It's an amazing achievement, considering. Leman Russ's genius as a tactician is evident in this book. He carefully commits in stages and keeps large amounts of his Legion in reserves and it has interesting consequences, while at the same time he still refuses the help of Valdor, the Sons of Horus, and House Malinax for a giant chunk of the battle. It's very incredible what Russ accomplishes on his own... for a while. Obviously the Sons do some things. Like completely borking time and space. But remember that it's a Legion home world, that is almost entirely immune to orbital bombardment due to a 'kine' shield (GIANT hurdle), and the Sons have a LOT of surprises, and he and his Legion still come through with only ~40% casualties.

Valdor only comes down when the psychic shenanigans get so intense he loses contact with the surface and makes the call to join on his own. Malinax deploys after the Pyramid of Photep vanishes, and the Sons of Horus come down but kind of busy themselves... murdering civilians. Good for them.

Yeah, these are cool. I note that BL and FW's love for Old Albian representation continues apace. Common theme there of hatred for sorcery and warp stuff...

LetsYouDown, m_r_parker, did all those army forces in the Beta-Garmon contingent come from Horus (besides the Cthonians, obviously) or were they associated with the VI legion?

The Imperial army stuff is indeed brought in by the Warmaster's order. Legio Mortis and Malinax as well.

This has me a little worried then, do the Thousand sons come off as chumps in this book failing miserably at every step to defend their world?

I mean they have always lost this battle hard, but I at least hopped that they were presented well, giving as good as they got under the circumstances.

[1ncarnadine]

 

This has me a little worried then, do the Thousand sons come off as chumps in this book failing miserably at every step to defend their world?

 

I mean they have always lost this battle hard, but I at least hopped that they were presented well, giving as good as they got under the circumstances. 

 

 

Nope. Absolutely not. They do very well for quite a while and most of the casualties are probably the early parts of the engagement. There is a distinct swing point, and it's the same point in A Thousand Sons. Valdor comes down and brings the Sisters of Silence, there is some dithering around where a ton of Custodes actually do die at first (Sons of Horus watching intently here), then they get into the swing of it and unite with Russ. A Primarch who is immune to psychic shenanigans is preeeeetty bad news. The absence of Magnus is deeply felt.

 

And then the Fellowship captains start exploding.

 

edit: well, there's another great part before that where Canis Vertex starts walking and at the same moment the sun just becomes a permanent eclipse and everyone can't stop hearing cackling laughter and the keening of birds. It's pretty great. It crushes most of the armoured elements of the VIth but that isn't reflected well in casualty figures if that makes sense?

 

further edit: the other issue is that the Thousand Sons, in sheer hate, keep trying to mount insanely suicidal, amazing attacks against Russ and also Valdor. So they're not exactly fighting to survive, fighting rationally, or sustainably.

[Sandlemad]

 

 

Quick Q: any idea what part of Earth "Old Alba" is supposed to be? Couldn't quite tell based on descriptions I read online. One map (that looks really off) seemed to make it out to be Canada?

 

It's hard to say because there are no oceans anymore, but a... piece of land? a city? a hive? all of the above? near where the British Isles were, at one point. It could be the former British Isles, it could be land that was formerly ocean... anywhere around there in the Atlantic? It's hard to say. And again it could be all of the above. 

 

 

I think it's as close to a solid case as any 30k Terran region. Coast of north Atlan, Ironside soldiers (Cromwell reference), soot-blackened cities (industrial revolution stylings), a fractious parliament, a ruler called Uilleam the Red, folks with the surname 'Smyth'... Regardless of any historical continuity over millennia, it appears it's meant to be Britain. It's on parr with the old 80's 'Nottingham is the astronomicon' chestnut, or having the 'Black Planet' be Birmingham. Fractionally more subtle but same old affectionate GW humour.

 

But that's an aside. So much for the SoH stealing the Wolves' thunder, I guess.

[b1soul]

 

It's a distinct possibility that all of the Thousand Sons are dead save Ahriman, and the rest are incredibly convincing facsimiles created by Tzeentch to lead him on his merry way to further and further damnation. They may be so convincing that they think they're real, too.

 

Not necessarily to be taken too seriously but it's a fun thought experiment they threw into the book. A possibility.

 

Sounds a bit silly, over-the-top (j.e. fake marines all designed to fool Ahriman)

 

I'm fine with it being an Imperial historian's speculation though

 

Yeap. 2000 Thousand Sons under Sentor Rahme of the Ninth Fellowship are murdered in their encampments by the Ultramarines somewhere, and another 300 veterans of the 7th are abandoned to their deaths by the Imperial Fists while they're engaged in a dangerous compliance. 

Not sure I like that fluff...UM and IF "murdering" TSons

 

 

If there's no retcon of Magnus' lowering/blinding of the TSons' defenses (resulting in the TSons' being caught with their pants completely down)...I'd say losing 25K SW (roughly a third of the SW attacking force) against such ill-prepared defenders is not "light" casualties.

 

 

Well. Hmmmm. It is quite light. It's an amazing achievement, considering. Leman Russ's genius as a tactician is evident in this book. He carefully commits in stages and keeps large amounts of his Legion in reserves and it has interesting consequences, while at the same time he still refuses the help of Valdor, the Sons of Horus, and House Malinax for a giant chunk of the battle. It's very incredible what Russ accomplishes on his own... for a while. Obviously the Sons do some things.

I'd have to read this for myself...

 

but 33% to 40% SW casualties was what I expected

 

Anything significantly higher...and the SW would come off as rather incompetent in my view

 

How much of A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns has been retconned (other than legion sizes)?

 

I'm assuming that Magnus still blinded his legion, killed TSons who got wind of the impending invasion, sent away the defense fleet, and ceded orbital superiority to the invading Imperials...in PB, Russ even suspected a trap IIRC

 

ATS made it very clear that the TSons' defense was severely hampered by Magnus' sabotage...but that the TSons still managed to put up a decent fight thanks to their psychic abilities. PB was consistent with that.

 

Of course, if Inferno changes that to the TSons mount a well-prepared defense from the get-go...my assumptions would be wrong.

 

Though I would be surprised if Inferno describes Magnus' sabotage, as I doubt the Imperial historian/authour would be aware of it.

[Jolemai]

Was there any mention of the Thunderhawk Transporter?

[1ncarnadine]

Was there any mention of the Thunderhawk Transporter?

 

No. Utterly hushed. Maybe it's a release to be associated with Warhammer Fest or the next FW Open Day? No one knows yet.

 

immediate edit: oh, transporter. Uhhh. No, no one asked, or if they did... speak up!

[1ncarnadine]

How much of A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns has been retconned (other than legion sizes)?

I'm assuming that Magnus still blinded his legion, killed TSons who got wind of the impending invasion, sent away the defense fleet, and ceded orbital superiority to the invading Imperials...in PB, Russ even suspected a trap IIRC

 

ATS made it very clear that the TSons' defense was severely hampered by Magnus' sabotage...but that the TSons still managed to put up a decent fight thanks to their psychic abilities. PB was consistent with that.

 

Of course, if Inferno changes that to the TSons mount a well-prepared defense from the get-go...my assumptions would be wrong.

 

Though I would be surprised if Inferno describes Magnus' sabotage, as I doubt the Imperial historian/authour would be aware of it.

 

 

Yeah, I would say none got retconned other than Legion numbers, actually. It's very faithful to both ATS and PB.

 

The historian does speculate on quite a few reasons for why the defenses were down.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

So wait, finally looking at those numbers on my laptop, are the Imperial forces actually outnumbered according to the roster and am I missing something?

 

Because I always thought the Imperials had numbers and "surprise" on their side, but it no longer appears to be that way.

[Excessus]

Aren't the numbers on the loyalist hehe side mostly from the Prospero Guard, which melted like butter infront of the SW onslaught.