Prospero was a tragedy for the Wolves/Imperi, not a victory.

[Liege]

I feel that the mood of this forum is currently that of the Wolves being overshadowed in the Burning of Prospero by the addition of the Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Mechanicum, Titan Legions and rumoured involvement of the Sons of Horus, but I respectfully disagree. I think the addition of them makes the Wolves look better as we have to remember, Prospero was the greatest tragedy short of Istvaan and had it not happened, the Emperor would be alive in 40k. Adding other elements helps takes the blame of our shoulders

 

The Thousand Sons were not traitors, this has been canon for years. The Edict of Nikea was pushed by Lorgar as a method of denying his enemies the use of witchcraft which would have provided them the most powerful tool they could have against the eventual daemonic incursions. The events at Nikaea were also manipulated by Horus by making Hawser appear as a TS spy when in fact it was the Sons of Horus using him to sow discord between the legions to ensure further down the line that the wolves would be eager to be at the TS' throats. 

 

After Nikaea, yes the TS continued using psychic abilities but it is at the core of their legion and at the core of their world, imagine if us Wolves had been told no more melee combat and we can't use Fenris as our home-world? Magnus was the first to discover Horus' betrayal and fought as hard as he could to prevent it, when he failed he sacrificed much to warn the Emperor about the betrayal and it was not his fault that the Emperor had not told him about the webway project even though Magnus himself was meant to power it. Magnus was the key to humanities salvation (Master of Mankind) and it was tragedy that his loyalty brought him to be the key to its destruction.

 

It is lore that the Emperor ordered the Wolves along with the Custodes and Sisters to bring Magnus and his Legion back for questioning and censure and it is lore that Horus himself tampered with these orders ensuring Russ believed he was meant to kill Magnus, for those who read Prospero Burns, you know Russ did not want to carry out these orders, telling Hawser who he believed Magnus was using to spy on him as a conduit asking him to please stand down and he would beg the Emperor to spare him. As Hawser was a Horus spy instead, the warning fell short and so the Wolves and Sons fought a bloody battle. 

 

Magnus knew Horus' plan was to destroy both the Sons and the Wolves, so to avoid this he sent away many of the TS, turned off his planetary defence systems and kept his men in the dark about the impending attack, he had no desire to kill the Wolves, his brothers. It was not his fault his men fought back and it was not his fault that he loved them too much to allow them to be slaughtered pointlessly so he fought back.

 

The duel between Russ and Magnus is the saddest of all because the love of his legion was so strong, Magnus would swear them to Tzeentch in order to save them, making them the traitors they never wanted to be. We know from Russ' conversation to Hawser that he desperately did not want this fight as well.

 

This is the tragedy of it, this is the stain on the honour of the Wolves, they did Horus' work for him, they doomed the Imperium as Magnus could have and would have been willing to power the Golden Throne and he would have handled the Daemons on Terra easily. Instead Tzeentch got his greatest champion and the Wolves forces were decimated.

Prospery was a tragedy for Wolves and Sons, let's never forget that. The only person who had victory that day was Horus and the forces of Chaos.

[Dagoth Ur]

Excellent post, bookmarked and saved. Many people should read this. Prospero was by no means a victory, in the conventional sense anyways, for the Wolves or the Imperium.

[Guest]

I keep trying to tell this to people Russ didnt want this fight. He sent transmissions that were never replied. He thought it was too late. I think once his blood lust cooled he noticed Magnus was not there most of the fight because he too did not want this fight. That is why he broke down. Remember Russ might have had disagreements with Magnus, but Russ still valued family/kinship. Magnus knew he messed up and accepted his fate. Only when his sons were screaming for mercy and help did his sense of fatherly protection overcome his guilt and he fought.

 

Prospero is not a story of victory it is a story of sadness and almost a Romeo and Juliet story of simple miscommunication and a lie ended in tragedy.

[Dagoth Ur]

Now that you mention Romeo and Juliet, I was always reminded of the Hildebrandslied (The saga of Hildebrand/Hiltibrant and his son Hadubrand) while reading about the Prospero Incident. It's also a story about an unneccessary war created through a misunderstanding and ending in tears.

[Runefyre]

But sadly, the Wolves don't have another major "victory" in the Heresy. So many Wolves fans (myself included) want to believe that Prospero was a Wolevs "victory". We literally get our butts kicked for the rest of the Heresy, AND don't even make it in time for the siege for all our pains.

 

It's important to note; however, Magnus may have been loyal, but he was cursed by Tzeentch and would eventually have to pay up no matter what. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Tzeentch would have used another agent. If you read Wrath of Magnus you'll find out he was anything BUT  innocent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Liege]

Ahriman and Wyrdmake is another good example of the tragedy of it all, they could have been the best of friends in a universe where Horus did not intervene, instead Wyrdmake tries to kill Ahriman and is shown the full, true horror of the deception at Prospero and dies lamenting that fate made him a puppet.

 

Russ and Magnus may disagree on many things, but the core of their beef is the TS use psykers and preserve knowledge whereas the Wolves use the power of Fenris (which everybody besides the Wolves think is hypocritical psyker powers) and utterly destroy anything they are unleashed upon (self-styled executioners). This doesn't mean they are not brothers, neither is a monster like Angron or Curze, neither is a self-righteous ass like Dorn or Guilliman, neither conducts "cowardly" warfare like the Raven Guard or Alpha Legion. Most importantly, both share a heinous flaw, the flesh-change and the Canis Helix. The Wolves see the flesh-change and condemn it publicly whilst hiding their Canis Helix, behind closed doors though they must see the parallels.

 

Imagine the Heresy with the Wolves standing gloriously at full-strength. Where the Alpha Legion were rooted out by the Thousand Son psykers, where the warp storms were quelled by Magnus himself, where Magnus holds back the War in the Webway whilst the Emperor rides out to deal with Horus much earlier.

 

The Thousand Sons never wanted to be traitors, they didn't even get a say in Magnus' bargain. In fact, one of the Sons left behind is the original Grand Master of the Grey Knights, Janus himself. 

 

The Space Wolves never wanted to kill their brothers, it was their wyrd and they lamented it and Horus twisted it for his own gains.

 

Let us blame the Custodes and the Sisters, for they are not our brothers, but between the TS and SW, there should only be mutual regret.

[Liege]

But sadly, the Wolves don't have another major "victory" in the Heresy. So many Wolves fans (myself included) want to believe that Prospero was a Wolevs "victory". We literally get our butts kicked for the rest of the Heresy, AND don't even make it in time for the siege for all our pains.

 

It's important to note; however, Magnus may have been loyal, but he was cursed by Tzeentch and would eventually have to pay up no matter what. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Tzeentch would have used another agent. If you read Wrath of Magnus you'll find out he was anything BUT  innocent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The Wolves aren't meant to be a legion that values glory though brother, we do what needs to be done, that is at the core of who we are. The Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists, they dress themselves up in glory and finery and brag about their great battles. The Wolves go in, do what we must and take satisfaction only in a job well done. It is one of the traits I most enjoy about our Legion.

 

As for getting our butts kicked, that is the point of Prospero, to destroy both us and the Thousand Sons. Together we were the greatest threat to the Heresy and Prospero essentially removed both Legions from play for the majority of it well before it even started. When you think of our fight with the Alpha Legion, we were massively under-strength and still recovering. This might sound bad but at least our entire legion wasn't forcefully devoted to a Chaos God and trapped in the warp with less than a tenth of our original number! Prospero was a tragedy for us, it was what made us so under-strength for future fights but the same thing happened to the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders, their fans don't mope about it and neither should we, take pride we continued fighting! But do not count the Thousand Sons as our enemies.

 

As for Magnus being cursed by Tzeentch, I disagee. The Emperor explicitly planned for Magnus to be humanities salvation in powering the Golden Throne and he would not have done so if Tzeentch had an iron-clad hold on Magnus' soul. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Magnus would have been on Terra with the Emperor, if Tzeentch could reach past the Emperor then why would we even need the Heresy? Chaos would have already won.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

As for getting our butts kicked, that is the point of Prospero, to destroy both us and the Thousand Sons. Together we were the greatest threat to the Heresy and Prospero essentially removed both Legions from play for the majority of it well before it even started. When you think of our fight with the Alpha Legion, we were massively under-strength and still recovering. This might sound bad but at least our entire legion wasn't forcefully devoted to a Chaos God and trapped in the warp with less than a tenth of our original number! Prospero was a tragedy for us, it was what made us so under-strength for future fights but the same thing happened to the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders, their fans don't mope about it and neither should we, take pride we continued fighting! But do not count the Thousand Sons as our enemies.

 

And at least in earlier versions of the story (please no Inferno leaks), that plan failed. While bled, the Wolves remained a potent and dangerous force, still a threat to the Warmaster's plans. That's why the Alphas were sent after Russ. Hell, it was the imminent arrival of the Wolves and DAs which forced Horus' hand and led to the showdown on the Vengeful Spirit in the original version of the story. We weren't hit anywhere near as hard like the Istvaan Legions, and retconning Prospero to us begin shattered too is precisely why we're getting annoyed (amongst other reasons).

 

Plus the fact remains, that Prsopero was a victory, arguably pyrrhic, and engineered by deceit (changing of the orders etc.), but the Imperial side won, the Sons were essentially wiped out (and would've been, if not of Tzeencth shenanigans) and Prospero burnt. However, the lack of focus on the Wolves, and frankly the dilution of their contribution, is real, annoying and bad storytelling. Like it or not, this is the Wolves moment in the Heresy. Proof positive that they could, and would follow through, even with orders they found distasteful. It's the apex of the GC-era Wolves character, they are the only ones who could be trusted to prosecute an inter-Legion war and follow it through to completion. The only tragedy for the Wolves comes from the realisation that they're caught in a web of lies, and the crisis the Imperium faces goes far beyond the ability of 1 Legion to stop. Horus changed the game, and the VI must change with the times. That's the 'tragedy' for the VI, they were playing the wrong game. So of course it gets annoying when we seem to be perpetually relegated to redshirts, and everything but the Wolves actually did the heavy lifting at Prospero.

 

Custodes, SoS? They get Terra, Webway war etc. Mechanicum? They're all over the place, don't need even more spotlight time. Sons of Horus? They're central to the entire plot, have had, and will have, plenty of screen time. But this, should be our moment, Grey vs Red. Yet it seems to be more 'Red curbstomps Grey, because the Sons are just so awesome and powerful, but then Gold (BUY NOW!) saves the day for the Imperials'. Is it really so hard to see why we're getting hacked off?

 

Frankly, this '1Ksons did nothing wrong' propaganda is getting irritating. A Thousand Sons makes it abundantly clear that Magnus had damned himself and his sons long before Prospero. He was owned by the Warp as soon as he made his deal to halt the flesh change. Was Russ deceived by Horus? Yes. Was Magnus innocent? Not by a long shot. Hell, it could even be argued that Prospero did the Imperium a favour in the long run. What might have happened if Magnus had been on the throne when Tzeentch called in his debt? The story of  Magnus is a tragedy, yes, but it's one of blind hubris and arrogance, not 'poor nerd gets wrecked by mean barbarian jock'.

[Runefyre]

Here's a quote from Wrath of Magnus to prove my point on Magnus. It's just an excerpt, I'm too lazy to type out a whole page.

 

 

In many ways Magnus fell furthest of all from the Emperor's grace. Though he claims otherwise, the blame for his gruesome transformation from demigod to daemon can be laid at his own door. Willingly he took the path of enlightenment that led through the chaotic tides of the Warp. Deliberately he chose to bargain with the dark powers in order to buy his sons a reprieve from their mutative curse. Throughout the tribulations of the Horus Heresy, Magnus' course was guided not by the beacon of the Emperor's will, but by surety of his own infallibility. He was the wisest, the most learned and the most psychically gifted of all the Primarchs; how could his conclusions possibly be wrong? It was by exploiting this vein of hubris that Tzeentch set his long and convoluted trap, widening the gulf between Magnus and his brothers-and even between Primarch, his gene-father, and his Thousand sons.

[Dagoth Ur]

Good quote runefyre, I always loved this similarity Magnus had to Icaros

[Garreck]

I relish the tragedy of Prospero. The Horus Heresy was a great tragedy, a civil war. Brother against brother. Some of the books make it too easy to view the conflict from a good vs evil paradigm but the Prospero books are dripping with tragedy. It truly captures how horrible a civil war can be. Two great legions, both manipulated, one driven to chaos, the other badly banged up. And a new hatred born that would define the next 10 millennia.

[Frater Cornelius]

But sadly, the Wolves don't have another major "victory" in the Heresy. So many Wolves fans (myself included) want to believe that Prospero was a Wolevs "victory". We literally get our butts kicked for the rest of the Heresy, AND don't even make it in time for the siege for all our pains.

 

It's important to note; however, Magnus may have been loyal, but he was cursed by Tzeentch and would eventually have to pay up no matter what. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Tzeentch would have used another agent. If you read Wrath of Magnus you'll find out he was anything BUT  innocent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

And that is the problem. Why do people care so much about having major victories? In war, there are no victories. There is no glory to be found and neither is it something to be proud of. However, there is honour and glory in doing ones duty. SW did not need any major victories during the HH and GC, because it was not their duty. They already did their duty well by bringing down the two forgotten Legions, so what more could you ask for?

[Guest]

But sadly, the Wolves don't have another major "victory" in the Heresy. So many Wolves fans (myself included) want to believe that Prospero was a Wolevs "victory". We literally get our butts kicked for the rest of the Heresy, AND don't even make it in time for the siege for all our pains.

 

It's important to note; however, Magnus may have been loyal, but he was cursed by Tzeentch and would eventually have to pay up no matter what. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Tzeentch would have used another agent. If you read Wrath of Magnus you'll find out he was anything BUT  innocent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

SW tied up 3 legions in combat keeping them away from terra. Though not a victory and more or less stalemates, SW still had significant impact in the heresy. Sometimes a platoon is not recognized for a single victory but by their constant contribution to the entire war effort. If we had 8v8 and you held off 3 guys allowing it to be 7v5, would you not be the hero even if you never did beat up the other 3?

[Leif Bearclaw]

But sadly, the Wolves don't have another major "victory" in the Heresy. So many Wolves fans (myself included) want to believe that Prospero was a Wolevs "victory". We literally get our butts kicked for the rest of the Heresy, AND don't even make it in time for the siege for all our pains.

It's important to note; however, Magnus may have been loyal, but he was cursed by Tzeentch and would eventually have to pay up no matter what. If the battle of Prospero hadn't happened, Tzeentch would have used another agent. If you read Wrath of Magnus you'll find out he was anything BUT innocent. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And that is the problem. Why do people care so much about having major victories? In war, there are no victories. There is no glory to be found and neither is it something to be proud of.

Sorry, but that's 100% false, especially in a setting like 40k which is essentially Napoleonic era combat but with tanks and planes. There are most certainly victories in war, as well as glorious deeds and heroics, particularly in fictional war, like we have in 30/40k.

As for why people care, without victories, the Wolves are inherently liars and/or delusional hypocrites. The Legion that talked the big game, but could never come close to backing up their words. Styled as the 'Executioners', but lose hard every time they come up against other Astartes without help? that. So of course fans object. The Wolves have had the worst treatment of any of the 18 thus far (again, not counting Inferno, for better or worse, and no spoilers please).

However, there is honour and glory in doing ones duty. SW did not need any major victories during the HH and GC, because it was not their duty. They already did their duty well by bringing down the two forgotten Legions, so what more could you ask for?

So the VI got their moment to shine is a completely classified action, that may not even have happened, and even if it 'did', we'll never hear the story? Do you really expect that to be satisfying for fans?

This is a story, and nothing but failures for the Wolves makes it a poor story for those invested in the Legion.

SW tied up 3 legions in combat keeping them away from terra. Though not a victory and more or less stalemates, SW still had significant impact in the heresy. Sometimes a platoon is not recognized for a single victory but by their constant contribution to the entire war effort. If we had 8v8 and you held off 3 guys allowing it to be 7v5, would you not be the hero even if you never did beat up the other 3?

Which three were they? Source? As far as I was aware all Traitor Legions got to Terra. Originally the Wolves were driving to relieve Terra, alongside the DAs (with a few stops along the way), not tying up a third of the Traitor Legions in some unnamed conflict.

[Liege]

 

 

As for getting our butts kicked, that is the point of Prospero, to destroy both us and the Thousand Sons. Together we were the greatest threat to the Heresy and Prospero essentially removed both Legions from play for the majority of it well before it even started. When you think of our fight with the Alpha Legion, we were massively under-strength and still recovering. This might sound bad but at least our entire legion wasn't forcefully devoted to a Chaos God and trapped in the warp with less than a tenth of our original number! Prospero was a tragedy for us, it was what made us so under-strength for future fights but the same thing happened to the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders, their fans don't mope about it and neither should we, take pride we continued fighting! But do not count the Thousand Sons as our enemies.

 

And at least in earlier versions of the story (please no Inferno leaks), that plan failed. While bled, the Wolves remained a potent and dangerous force, still a threat to the Warmaster's plans. That's why the Alphas were sent after Russ. Hell, it was the imminent arrival of the Wolves and DAs which forced Horus' hand and led to the showdown on the Vengeful Spirit in the original version of the story. We weren't hit anywhere near as hard like the Istvaan Legions, and retconning Prospero to us begin shattered too is precisely why we're getting annoyed (amongst other reasons).

 

Plus the fact remains, that Prsopero was a victory, arguably pyrrhic, and engineered by deceit (changing of the orders etc.), but the Imperial side won, the Sons were essentially wiped out (and would've been, if not of Tzeencth shenanigans) and Prospero burnt. However, the lack of focus on the Wolves, and frankly the dilution of their contribution, is real, annoying and bad storytelling. Like it or not, this is the Wolves moment in the Heresy. Proof positive that they could, and would follow through, even with orders they found distasteful. It's the apex of the GC-era Wolves character, they are the only ones who could be trusted to prosecute an inter-Legion war and follow it through to completion. The only tragedy for the Wolves comes from the realisation that they're caught in a web of lies, and the crisis the Imperium faces goes far beyond the ability of 1 Legion to stop. Horus changed the game, and the VI must change with the times. That's the 'tragedy' for the VI, they were playing the wrong game. So of course it gets annoying when we seem to be perpetually relegated to redshirts, and everything but the Wolves actually did the heavy lifting at Prospero.

 

Custodes, SoS? They get Terra, Webway war etc. Mechanicum? They're all over the place, don't need even more spotlight time. Sons of Horus? They're central to the entire plot, have had, and will have, plenty of screen time. But this, should be our moment, Grey vs Red. Yet it seems to be more 'Red curbstomps Grey, because the Sons are just so awesome and powerful, but then Gold (BUY NOW!) saves the day for the Imperials'. Is it really so hard to see why we're getting hacked off?

 

Frankly, this '1Ksons did nothing wrong' propaganda is getting irritating. A Thousand Sons makes it abundantly clear that Magnus had damned himself and his sons long before Prospero. He was owned by the Warp as soon as he made his deal to halt the flesh change. Was Russ deceived by Horus? Yes. Was Magnus innocent? Not by a long shot. Hell, it could even be argued that Prospero did the Imperium a favour in the long run. What might have happened if Magnus had been on the throne when Tzeentch called in his debt? The story of  Magnus is a tragedy, yes, but it's one of blind hubris and arrogance, not 'poor nerd gets wrecked by mean barbarian jock'.

 

The Wolves remained a potent and dangerous force because Magnus allowed it to be so, if he hadn't turned off his planetary defences and sent away most of his sons, the Wolves would not exist past Prospero. That was Magnus' shining moment over Tzeentch, he let the Wolves come so they may still hold the traitors at bay later in the heresy. Look how well the Sons did without any defences or planning against the Custodes, Sisters, Wolves, SoH, Mechanicum and Titan Legions? This shows Magnus was in no way in thrall to Tzeentch before the fight with Russ.

 

How was Prospero an Imperial Victory? The Imperiums Emperor, THE GOD-Emperor did not want what happened to occur. Horus, the ARCH-ENEMY of the Imperium wanted it to occur. The Thousand Sons were loyal, destroying them was one of the largest failures during the entire Heresy and Russ himself deeply regretted it, hell, it almost led the White Scars to destroying the Space Wolves by siding with the Alpha Legion.

 

This is the Wolves moment in the heresy if you mean the moment they show how truly manipulative and powerful Horus was, sure. They got duped, Russ actively did not want this fight but Horus made him think Hawser was a TS plant and thus broke down any potential communication between brothers. You say the Wolves did the heavy lifting at Prospero, for Horus, yes they did.

 

The Thousand Sons did as much wrong as the Wolves, both continued using psykers after Nikaea, it's just the Wolves claimed their power was from Fenris whereas the Sons claimed it was from the Great Ocean. Magnus was to blame, not his Sons, and what Magnus did, he did out of loyalty to the Emperor and ignorance of his grand designs, this is canon. Magnus was not innocent of what he did to the webway and thus was to be brought back to Terra, instead the Wolves were duped by Horus and destroyed humanities chance of anyone besides the Emperor powering the throne. If you think Tzeentch could control Magnus, why did Magnus let the Wolves attack? Why would the Emperor not have noticed despite it being canon he knows about the Chaos Gods and Magnus' studies in the warp?

 

The Wolves moment in the heresy was never wavering in doing their duty, even though it was hard and dirty, that is admirable, that is the legion I love.

But Prospero was their defining failure, as it was the Sons, as it was anyone involved who hated Chaos. Fenris would burn as a direct consequence for Prospero, how can that be a defining victory?

 

As for the Wrath of Magnus except, that is written from the perspective of 40k when the Thousand Sons are clearly thought of as traitors and always were, look at "Deliberately he chose to bargain with the dark powers in order to buy his sons a reprieve from their mutative curse", aThousand Sons made it clear Magnus thought the powers in the warp were benevolent, so saying he bargained with dark power deliberately is both incorrect and does not disclose he gave his own eye in payment, not any claim to his soul.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Leif and Runefyre have this covered. Magnus was damned prior to Prospero. He bargained his soul to Tzeentch in order to halt the flesh-change when he first was reunited with his legion. He was naive because he didn't believe in the "soul" and thought he was bargaining nothing away to save his legion.  Doesn't matter that he thought the powers were benevolent. It was still damning but he was ignorant to that.

 

Liege you gave a fair breakdown of the situation. It was a short-term victory for Horus. But it was a reckoning that was eventually going to happen. Perhaps the Emperor thought he could save Magnus even after all of that. But he might have been wrong.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The Wolves remained a potent and dangerous force because Magnus allowed it to be so, if he hadn't turned off his planetary defences and sent away most of his sons, the Wolves would not exist past Prospero. That was Magnus' shining moment over Tzeentch, he let the Wolves come so they may still hold the traitors at bay later in the heresy.

And that's the sort of retcon that explains why Wolf fans don't like a lot of this. Originally, he didn't send away most of his Sons (that being the absolute worst retcon they've come up with thus far). He realised he'd ed up, ruined the Emperor's plan and was prepared to face his punishment, only to renege and resist because he couldn't deal with the destruction being wrought on Tizca and his Legion. He didn't 'allow' the Wolves to live, they just won the engagement with the majority of their strength intact.

That was Magnus' shining moment over Tzeentch, he let the Wolves come so they may still hold the traitors at bay later in the heresy.

So Magnus' 'shining moment' over Tzeencth was an abject failure? If not resisting was the goal he failed to control both his Legion, and later himself. This wasn't some grand gesture, beyond the contrition of one who knew he'd done wrong, but then couldn't stomach the consequences.

In fact, it was only when Prospero burnt that Magnus realised how badly he'd been played.

Look how well the Sons did without any defences or planning against the Custodes, Sisters, Wolves, SoH, Mechanicum and Titan Legions? This shows Magnus was in no way in thrall to Tzeentch before the fight with Russ.

Eh? How does fighting back show Magnus wasn't in thrall to Tzeentch, when that was precisely what Tzeentch wanted to happen?

As for how well they did, that's part of why we're annoyed. In both ATS and PB, the Sons seem more threatened by their own psychic powers than the VI Legion. Which is a kick in the teeth for Wolves' fans, especially with the potential retcon of numbers (not 100% sure on this one yet, because no Inferno).

The Thousand Sons were loyal, destroying them was one of the largest failures during the entire Heresy and Russ himself deeply regretted it, hell, it almost led the White Scars to destroying the Space Wolves by siding with the Alpha Legion.

They may have thought they were loyal, but ATS makes it clear they were already damned, they just didn't realise it until Tizca was burning.

And frankly the White Scars shtick is another piece of irritating retcon, how the new fluff has isolated the VI from those who used to be their allies (Russ and Khan used to friends) without giving them anything to replace it. Hell, even the involvement of the Legio Mortis is a symptom of this idiocy (why do the Wolves need Horus' pet Titan Legion, why don;t they have their own Titan allies?).

They got duped, Russ actively did not want this fight but Horus made him think Hawser was a TS plant and thus broke down any potential communication between brothers.

Um, no. As far as I can recall PB makes no mention of a link between Horus and Hawser, it's Tzeentch's Daemons that orchestrate that deception. Horus just issued the change of orders.

You say the Wolves did the heavy lifting at Prospero, for Horus, yes they did.

No I don't. I say they should be. But what we've seen thus far is a load of redshirt Wolves getting killed, while it's the Custodes, SoS and the Perils of the Warp table that are truly threatening to the Sons.

If you think Tzeentch could control Magnus, why did Magnus let the Wolves attack?

Control is a nebulous term, as are the plans of Tzeentch. Who's to say what the ultimate scheme was for Magnus and the XV, and how successful it was? Perhaps he wanted the damned XV brought low, before calling in the debt owed. Then Tzeentch is both destroyer and saviour of the Legion, that sounds like a pretty Tzeentchian plan to me.

Why would the Emperor not have noticed despite it being canon he knows about the Chaos Gods and Magnus' studies in the warp?

Because we've seen the Emperor isn't infallible? If he could have detected the spoor of Chaos on his Primarchs he would've rumbled Lorgar at Ullanor, if not before. The the story would've taken a rather different direction.

Fenris would burn as a direct consequence for Prospero, how can that be a defining victory?

Events 10,000 years later are immaterial (besides, it appears that Fenris stood). Are you claiming that a victory is not a victory if later conflict occurs? That just doesn't make any sense. Prospero was the defining event of the Heresy for both the VI and XV. It was also a victory for the Imperial side (and theoretically the VI). For all the deceptions and behind the scenes machinations, there is no real disputing the fact that the Imperials were ultimately victorious on the day.

[Liege]

Leif and Runefyre have this covered. Magnus was damned prior to Prospero. He bargained his soul to Tzeentch in order to halt the flesh-change when he first was reunited with his legion. He was naive because he didn't believe in the "soul" and thought he was bargaining nothing away to save his legion.  Doesn't matter that he thought the powers were benevolent. It was still damning but he was ignorant to that.

 

Liege you gave a fair breakdown of the situation. It was a short-term victory for Horus. But it was a reckoning that was eventually going to happen. Perhaps the Emperor thought he could save Magnus even after all of that. But he might have been wrong.

He bargained his eye (the eye of a Primarch is an incredible thing) to halt the flesh change in a deal that is deliberately reminiscent of Odin from Norse mythology. His soul was entirely his up until Russ broke his back. I'm not sure how it was a reckoning that would have happened without Horus' intervention. The Wolves would've shown up to Prospero, asked Magnus to stand down, he would have and been brought before the Emperor and made to stand guard at the Eternity Gate while the Emperor dealt with the heresy. If you've read Master of Mankind, it is made clear how important this is. Giving up an eye is not the same as giving up his soul or becoming in thrall to Tzeentch.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Leif and Runefyre have the right of it.

 

Magnus defied his oaths to the Emperor two times.

 

He earned his fate

[LukeTheButcher]

Liege, I respectfully disagree with several points you have raised.

 

1. You have said this was Horus's victory (him being all powerful and manipulative.

 - I believe this is in error and paints Horus as a much more potent planner than he was. Magnus acted (mystic mojo), the Emperor Reacted (Sent in the Wolves/Custodes ect), Magnus reacted (let the fight occur).

 - Magnus could have stopped the whole thing, gone willing with Russ to face sanction and not driven 2 Legions into battle. But he did not. By not accepting that 'arrest' Magnus (and no-one else) decide to oppose the Imperial authorities. At that point, he has betrayed the Emperor (a second time considering the mystic mumbo-jumbo) and is correctly A TRAITOR. Not in the sense of siding with Horus, but certainly in rejecting the Emperor.

But all this is on Magnus. Zip to do with 'Horus manipulation'. But I will not disagree that Horus was the biggest benefactor of that action.

 

2. Magnus's shinning moment of triumph over Tzeeench?

This would have been accepting the arrest, and preserving his Legion to fight against the tides of Chaos powering Horus. Magnus arrogance was colossal (him being a Primarch and all), but a Triumph over Chaos this was not.

 

 

Prospero was a tragedy. A tragedy of Pride over reason. The last shot of an ego that brought death (the Wolves) and damnation to the Thousand Sons. Magnus could have prevented the destruction, but instead he moped like a teenager and allowed self-destruction to happen like a morbid alcoholic. The Wolves did their duty. They did what they were made to do. And they did it well.

 

And 10 thousand years later, nothing but regret grows on Prospero...

[Liege]

And Leif, I'm a wolf-fan and I used to find it ridiculous that our legion could march on an enemy legions homeworld and burn it to the ground. The Wolves are no stronger than other legions, not in close combat which goes to the World Eaters or Blood Angels nor in fire-power which probably goes to the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors. The Wolves are defined by their loyalty and willingness to do their duty above all others. The idea that say, the Salamanders could burn down Fenris or the Iron Hands could burn down Baal is ridiculous. A legion is strongest at its homeworld and the homeworld usually suits the legions preferred theatre of war. So I am somewhat glad they made the battle more realistic. 

 

Yes, his shining moment was a failure, hence the tragedy of it all. As for the TS having perils of the warp being their greatest enemy, look at Phosis T'Kar, he wiped out Custodes like paper before he discovered he could even kill Valdor at the cost of what was left of his humanity. The Sons have always held the greatest individual power of the legions which has been counter-balanced by small numbers and the flesh-change being the price they pay for utilising that strength. Perils of the warp has always been their greatest enemy.

 

How were the TS already damned lol? I challenge you to show me one shred of evidence for that besides continuing to use phychic abilities AS DID US WOLVES. Magnus destroyed the webway, that was his crime, it was not being in league with Chaos and that is on Magnus alone, not his sons. This is explicitly canon.

 

As for the Wolves using Horus' titans, I don't believe we have a forge-world for our own legion whereas Horus had several.

 

I am certain Hawser was a plant by Horus and will find relevant quotes to prove it tomorrow. As for the Emperor not being infallible, in regards to Magnus they touched minds during the destruction of the webway and the Emperor examined Magnus in detail, if he had discovered chaos, Magnus would not have walked away soul in-tact.

 

The Thousand Sons were Imperials, they were either killed or turned to Chaos. The Space Wolves were Imperials, they were slaughtered. The only traitors who died were some Sons of Horus and we don't know the full details of that till we get Inferno. Point me to some traitors that were killed and show me why they were traitors, because the TS didn't turn until Magnus/Russ duel.

[Liege]

Liege, I respectfully disagree with several points you have raised.

 

1. You have said this was Horus's victory (him being all powerful and manipulative.

 - I believe this is in error and paints Horus as a much more potent planner than he was. Magnus acted (mystic mojo), the Emperor Reacted (Sent in the Wolves/Custodes ect), Magnus reacted (let the fight occur).

 - Magnus could have stopped the whole thing, gone willing with Russ to face sanction and not driven 2 Legions into battle. But he did not. By not accepting that 'arrest' Magnus (and no-one else) decide to oppose the Imperial authorities. At that point, he has betrayed the Emperor (a second time considering the mystic mumbo-jumbo) and is correctly A TRAITOR. Not in the sense of siding with Horus, but certainly in rejecting the Emperor.

But all this is on Magnus. Zip to do with 'Horus manipulation'. But I will not disagree that Horus was the biggest benefactor of that action.

 

2. Magnus's shinning moment of triumph over Tzeeench?

This would have been accepting the arrest, and preserving his Legion to fight against the tides of Chaos powering Horus. Magnus arrogance was colossal (him being a Primarch and all), but a Triumph over Chaos this was not.

 

 

Prospero was a tragedy. A tragedy of Pride over reason. The last shot of an ego that brought death (the Wolves) and damnation to the Thousand Sons. Magnus could have prevented the destruction, but instead he moped like a teenager and allowed self-destruction to happen like a morbid alcoholic. The Wolves did their duty. They did what they were made to do. And they did it well.

 

And 10 thousand years later, nothing but regret grows on Prospero...

I will try and succinctly explain how I see it (having read all relevant literature short of Inferno)

>Magnus defied the Edict of Nikaea, though the Space Wolves did the same with our powers of fenris.

>Magnus learnt of Horus' betrayal and went to warn the Emperor, inadvertently ruining the webway project.

>The Emperor tasked the Wolves and his Custodes/Sisters with bringing Magnus (and sons) back to Terra for censure

>Horus changed the orders from bring Magnus back, to kill him and his legion. 

>Russ asked Magnus to surrender through a spy planted by Horus/Tzeentch, obviously the message does not reach Magnus

>Magnus disabled all his defences and accepted death from the Wolves, the Wolves started slaughtering his sons, at this point neither side knew the Emperor only wanted an arrest and hostilities were too high to talk

>Eventually the death of his sons proved too great and Magnus took to the field reluctantly, duelling Russ before in desperation he made his deal with Tzeentch.

>The Sons now in the Warp and the Wolves badly injured, Horus' plan had worked.

>None of this was on the Emperors orders.

 

In light of this I am confused how you can say this is all on Magnus? Horus is the villain here. It is explicitly canon this was his plan.

[Leif Bearclaw]

How were the TS already damned lol? I challenge you to show me one shred of evidence for that besides continuing to use phychic abilities AS DID US WOLVES. Magnus destroyed the webway, that was his crime, it was not being in league with Chaos and that is on Magnus alone, not his sons. This is explicitly canon.

 

Please reread this thread. Myself, Runefyre and Wolf Guard Dan have all mentioned this. When we talk about Magnus and co being damned, we're not referring to his flouting of Nikea. We're referring to the deal he made with Tzeentch to halt the flesh change when he took over the XV. That was when Magnus damned himself and his sons with the Faustian bargain he struck. Prospero is when Magnus realised the extent to which he's been played. All this is laid out in A Thousand Sons.

 

 

As for the Wolves using Horus' titans, I don't believe we have a forge-world for our own legion whereas Horus had several.

You're being overly literal here. The Legions did not 'have' Forge Worlds, as they were Mechanicum domains. However, most other Legions have been portrayed as having access to allied Imperial Army, Titan Legions and Knight Houses, which they have served alongside during the Crusade, and essential serve as auxiliaries to the Astartes. But not the Wolves, they've been cast as the executioner, but without the materiel support to make it believable. Hell, the World Eaters are better supplied with allies and auxiliaries than the Wolves. The VI should be tooled up to the nines, like the Minotaurs in 40k, given the nature of their role. But they aren't, because the treatment of the VI in the HH has been abysmal.

 

 

As for the Emperor not being infallible, in regards to Magnus they touched minds during the destruction of the webway and the Emperor examined Magnus in detail, if he had discovered chaos, Magnus would not have walked away soul in-tact.

I agree. If he had detected Chaos. But he couldn't, not because Magnus was pure, but because the Emperor is not infallible. Is it really so hard to believe that Tzeentch, God of trickery and deceit, could hide his influence from the Emperor?

 

 

Point me to some traitors that were killed and show me why they were traitors, because the TS didn't turn until Magnus/Russ duel.

The Thousand Sons who took up arms against the chosen representatives of the Emperor, the VI Legion, Legio Custodes and Sisters of Silence. While you may agree with their reasons (tbh they weren't unreasonable), but their actions undeniably make them traitors to the Imperium. Loyal (pre-Heresy) Imperial servants do not try to kill Constantin Valdor.

 

 

And Leif, I'm a wolf-fan and I used to find it ridiculous that our legion could march on an enemy legions homeworld and burn it to the ground. The Wolves are no stronger than other legions, not in close combat which goes to the World Eaters or Blood Angels nor in fire-power which probably goes to the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors. The Wolves are defined by their loyalty and willingness to do their duty above all others. The idea that say, the Salamanders could burn down Fenris or the Iron Hands could burn down Baal is ridiculous. A legion is strongest at its homeworld and the homeworld usually suits the legions preferred theatre of war. So I am somewhat glad they made the battle more realistic.

So you find the entire identity the HH series has given the Wolves ridiculous then? If the 'executioner' Legion cannot actually function in that role, then what's the point of having it in the first place?

 

Now personally, I don't mind the 'executioner' thing, it answers some important questions. Now I don't like what they stripped from the Wolves in the process (Crusade performance, Inter-Legion relations, Allies etc.), but they should at least leave have left the Wolves capable of acting in that capacity. That's the primary failure of the Wolves' treatment in the HH thus far. They've removed so much form the Legion, and replaced it with 'executioner' and 'loyalty'. Yet they also make the Wolves incapable of acting as executioners with how they're presenting Prospero (and to a lesser extent, every other time the Wolves go up against other Astartes), and FW have undermined the entire loyalty angle with the specific mentioning of traitor Wolves in the idiotic 'all Legions have Loyalists and Traitors' push.

[Karack Blackstone]

The VIth got played by Horus, Magnus gave up on his oaths to the Emperor, his own father, and most of all, to most VIth fans it seems, FW is turning the Vlka into a near joke legion by having the VIth be red shirts to reference Star Trek.

 

The problem seems to me to be more in the handling of the Burning of Prospero by FW than most of the writing thus far.

 

Inferno might change that; however, it might also make the event worse to those that play the VIth and are unsure why the fight required other forces to see the job done. Make of this thread what one will, some just want a legion to be viable table and fluff wise against a foe in a situation we thought we knew, at least until Inferno is actually released.

 

Context is always hard to translate; if FW thought the Vlka would need aid to fight and win against the TSons, I simply posit the translation of this context could have been handled better, at least from a VIth legion player perspective...

 

The TSons being given a hard fight by just the Vlka might have seen the VIth shattered, or nearly broken. That said, why? The problem appears to be more the out of setting handling of this book and sequence of events.

 

I personally see the issue as a serious tragedy on all fronts; the thing is, how the fight played out, there seems to be no real fight had the VIth gone it alone.

 

That, I feel, is the biggest issue here, the Vlka would have lost without aid; which, to a VIth fan, is the hardest part to understand when without Inferno, we as fans cannot see the entire reason as to why.

 

The VIth as fans know in 40K is possibly quite different from 30K, however, there should be some basis connecting the two forces.

 

The complete absence of there being a bridge to link how one force turned into the other seems, the more I think on this, the problem here.

[LukeTheButcher]

Leige, defying the eddict of Nikea by allowing a little psychic leaway in your legion is not the same as magically gate-crashing the Emperor's House in a firework display of power.

 

The Emperor sent Russ. Russ. Russ with the reputation he holds (if you believe the fate of two lost legions). Not Vulkan. Not Roboute. And let's be honest, if it was the Lion or the Khan...How would they have reacted to Magnus effectively sticking two fingers up to Imperial authority after having very publicly flouted a decree aimed expressly at him? You think Roboute would have said 'fair enough Magnus, I'll head back and ask Dad what to do next'. The Primarchs are Warlords, the emphasis here on war. They don't need to ask what happens next and no distant finger twiddling or moustache twirling of Horus would have affected Russ and his thoughts on this. The reprocusions were clear but the very fact a Legion was sent in. The Emperor would have known conflict was a possible outcome but I suspect he didn't really care (mind on more important matters and all).

 

Again, it suited Horus, but I get a little weary of the omnipotence granted to Horus while the guy more powerful and all knowing is portrayed without even a whisker of that foresight.... If Horus is all that, why did he let Fulgrim flump at recruiting Ferrus? Why couldn't he control Angron with his insane powers of Machiavellian intrigue? Because... This is on Magnus, not Horus.

 

Why did Magnus not surrender?